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post #6541 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Don't know. I haven't delved into subtitle analysis before. Been looking over it a little bit the past day. So they are stored as image files on the disc? But, are they then converted to text in the rip process (let's say in ripping to MKV) or do they stay as an image file?
Blu-ray PGS subtitles are a series of PNG images. Typically they are not converted to text (such as SRT) unless the playback system doesn't support PGS.

I'm curious what kind of automated decisions you plan to make once you have the subtitle text.
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post #6542 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
Blu-ray PGS subtitles are a series of PNG images. Typically they are not converted to text (such as SRT) unless the playback system doesn't support PGS.

I'm curious what kind of automated decisions you plan to make once you have the subtitle text.
Is there an image for every frame, regardless of whether or not there are actual subtitles, or are the subtitle images only called up at specified time-stamps?
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post #6543 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 02:01 PM
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post #6544 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Is there an image for every frame, regardless of whether or not there are actual subtitles, or are the subtitle images only called up at specified time-stamps?
A typical sub track has on the order of 1000 PNG images, each with a start and stop timestamp. There's open source tools like BDSup2Sub that can read the PGS files and break them up into individual PNG files with an XML doc full of metadata.

Then you'd need to OCR if you want to read the subs as text, though I'm still not seeing how that would help with automatically finding forced subs.
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post #6545 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 04:04 PM
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Cool. Thanks.

Simple, really... a forced english subtitle track is going to have a whole let less words (or, in terms of PNG images, will pop up a whole lot less) than the full english subtitle track, or commentary subtitle track.

A on screen caption version is most likely going to have more special characters (e.g. brackets, parenthesis, colons, etc.).

Though I'm not sure that sort of analysis is something that could be done quickly prior to ripping. It may require going through the rip (if OCR needs some time to process) and comparing the available subtitle tracks after the fact (and deleting whatever does not fit the bill) and so far nothing I've worked on has gone into manipulating the rip process, or ripped product, itself. That may be something that doesn't meet the cost-benefit threshold. However, if there are individual PNG files for each set of subtitles, I could basically do the word count test by comparing number of PNG images.
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post #6546 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Simple, really... a forced english subtitle track is going to have a whole let less words (or, in terms of PNG images, will pop up a whole lot less) than the full english subtitle track, or commentary subtitle track.

A on screen caption version is most likely going to have more special characters (e.g. brackets, parenthesis, colons, etc.).

Though I'm not sure that sort of analysis is something that could be done quickly prior to ripping. It may require going through the rip (if OCR needs some time to process) and comparing the available subtitle tracks after the fact (and deleting whatever does not fit the bill) and so far nothing I've worked on has gone into manipulating the rip process, or ripped product, itself. That may be something that doesn't meet the cost-benefit threshold. However, if there are individual PNG files for each set of subtitles, I could basically do the word count test by comparing number of PNG images.
I suspect that simply looking at the file size of the extracted subs will tell you everything you need to know. And any further processing won't tell you anything reliable.
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post #6547 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 06:48 PM
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I'm new to the blu-ray ripping scene, but would like to rip my blu-ray library to get rid of the discs. From what I can tell, a popular way to do this is to use AnyDVD HD or MakeMKV to rip the blu-ray and then have a media server running Plex to stream it. Is that about right? If so, when playing the video through Plex, can you get the same audio and video quality that you get from a blu-ray disc? Are there any players (such as the Roku) that can do a full 7.1 lossless playback?

Thanks for helping out a newbie. Just trying to figure out the best way to do this.
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post #6548 of 6564 Old Yesterday, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
But, are they then converted to text in the rip process (let's say in ripping to MKV) or do they stay as an image file?
They stay as an image file.


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post #6549 of 6564 Old Today, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
I'm new to the blu-ray ripping scene, but would like to rip my blu-ray library to get rid of the discs. From what I can tell, a popular way to do this is to use AnyDVD HD or MakeMKV to rip the blu-ray and then have a media server running Plex to stream it. Is that about right? If so, when playing the video through Plex, can you get the same audio and video quality that you get from a blu-ray disc? Are there any players (such as the Roku) that can do a full 7.1 lossless playback?

Thanks for helping out a newbie. Just trying to figure out the best way to do this.
I haven't had a whole lot of experience with AnyDVD but believe it will do what you are looking for. MakeMKV while a great application doesn't do all Blu-Rays only the ones with certain types of encryption it is also still in Beta so that might change. A lot of people use DVD Fab but the they now have a "US" version that removed the Blu-Ray ripping capabilities. There are ways to still get the full version but that might be a little more trouble then you want to deal with.

I believe you can Download AnyDVD for free to try and so give it a shot and see how it works. You should be able to output it right to an MKV file but again I am not sure, if not download MakeMKV and convert it afterward, it is usually a very quick process depending on your system / hard drive.

DVD Fab has an MKV Pass Through option that will just convert the Blu-Ray in to a MKV file and keep all of the Audio settings intact so if the source is 7.1 / DTS it will be the same. MKV supports it. I don't know what players will play it through Plex, maybe Plex Home Theater Version?

From what I see on the Plex Forum it is supported on the Server Side but the player side might need some experimenting.
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post #6550 of 6564 Old Today, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Simple, really... a forced english subtitle track is going to have a whole let less words (or, in terms of PNG images, will pop up a whole lot less) than the full english subtitle track, or commentary subtitle track.
Not so simple. Forced subtitles come in various flavors. They come as a separate track which may or may not be flagged as forced. But, more commonly, they come integrated as part of the main subtitle track and have to be extracted to a separate track by a utility that first has to identify that forced subtitles exist in the main sub track.

I manually inspect every English subtitle stream when I rip a BD to be able to pick the right one for the title rip. Given the variations I have seen in terms of numbers of sub tracks and the different ways forced subs are incorporated, I can't see how an automated process can be made to work reliably with some simple selection rules. There would have to be some super AI code running the show.

But good luck. You may be some sort of AI programming whiz.

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post #6551 of 6564 Old Today, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Not so simple. Forced subtitles come in various flavors. They come as a separate track which may or may not be flagged as forced. But, more commonly, they come integrated as part of the main subtitle track and have to be extracted to a separate track by a utility that first has to identify that forced subtitles exist in the main sub track.

I manually inspect every English subtitle stream when I rip a BD to be able to pick the right one for the title rip. Given the variations I have seen in terms of numbers of sub tracks and the different ways forced subs are incorporated, I can't see how an automated process can be made to work reliably with some simple selection rules. There would have to be some super AI code running the show.

But good luck. You may be some sort of AI programming whiz.
Good info. Thanks! What are you using to extract/inspect the subtitle streams? And how are tracks typically initially identified as "forced" or not?
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post #6552 of 6564 Old Today, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by frenchmr View Post
I'm new to the blu-ray ripping scene, but would like to rip my blu-ray library to get rid of the discs. From what I can tell, a popular way to do this is to use AnyDVD HD or MakeMKV to rip the blu-ray and then have a media server running Plex to stream it. Is that about right? If so, when playing the video through Plex, can you get the same audio and video quality that you get from a blu-ray disc? Are there any players (such as the Roku) that can do a full 7.1 lossless playback?

Thanks for helping out a newbie. Just trying to figure out the best way to do this.
Plex can indeed do full lossless audio, but I have not yet heard of an external media player (hardware-wise) that can do Plex at full lossless audio (though, that doesn't mean there isn't one). If you set-up an HTPC, then, yes, certainly, Plex Home Theater does full blu-ray quality, assuming your hardware is good enough.
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post #6553 of 6564 Old Today, 08:56 AM
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I have been ripping my movies with AnyDVD/DVDFab without any problems, but yesterday I wanted to append a 2nd disc to the 1st disc... I used mkvmerge, and it worked fine on the first 2 movies. When I went to do the third movie it worked fine too, but it gave me this warning "Warning: The track number 0 from the file 'F:\ripped blurays\Video\ROTK_D2_UK\THE_LORD_OF_THE_RINGS__TH E_RETURN_OF_THE_KING_(EXT.)_-_PT.2.Title1689.mkv' can probably not be appended correctly to the track number 0 from the file 'F:\ripped blurays\Video\ROTK_D2_UK\THE_LORD_OF_THE_RINGS__TH E_RETURN_OF_THE_KING_(EXT.)_-_PT.1.Title1689.mkv': The codec's private data does not match (lengths: 68 and 191). Please make sure that the resulting file plays correctly the whole time. The author of this program will probably not give support for playback issues with the resulting file.". How do I solve this error or will it even matter? I have tried re ripping the 2 discs and merging twice now, but I get the warning each time.

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post #6554 of 6564 Old Today, 09:21 AM
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I have been ripping my movies with AnyDVD/DVDFab without any problems, but yesterday I wanted to append a 2nd disc to the 1st disc... I used mkvmerge, and it worked fine on the first 2 movies. When I went to do the third movie it worked fine too, but it gave me this warning "Warning: The track number 0 from the file 'F:\ripped blurays\Video\ROTK_D2_UK\THE_LORD_OF_THE_RINGS__TH E_RETURN_OF_THE_KING_(EXT.)_-_PT.2.Title1689.mkv' can probably not be appended correctly to the track number 0 from the file 'F:\ripped blurays\Video\ROTK_D2_UK\THE_LORD_OF_THE_RINGS__TH E_RETURN_OF_THE_KING_(EXT.)_-_PT.1.Title1689.mkv': The codec's private data does not match (lengths: 68 and 191). Please make sure that the resulting file plays correctly the whole time. The author of this program will probably not give support for playback issues with the resulting file.". How do I solve this error or will it even matter? I have tried re ripping the 2 discs and merging twice now, but I get the warning each time.
Do a Google search on this. There is something about not being able to directly append the Part1 & 2 disks of LOTR because the audio will be out of synch on the Part 2 section. You have to introduce a delay of the audio in TSMuxer to get it to match up. People have published what that delay should be for the three movies -- go to Google.

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post #6555 of 6564 Old Today, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Good info. Thanks! What are you using to extract/inspect the subtitle streams? And how are tracks typically initially identified as "forced" or not?
I use stage 1 of Clown_BD to do a quick demux of all the English subtitle tracks into a separate folder. If Clown_BD finds a separate subtitle track that is marked as forced, or finds a main subtitle track that contains the forced subtitles, it creates a new subtitle track that contains only the forced subtitles and labels it as "forced" so it is easy to identify. Obviously, if the forced track was separate to begin with, Clown_BD creates a duplicate of the track with the label of "forced" -- useful in itself to identify a title with a forced sub track but it means I have to go to some extra effort during the full rip process to not mux in a duplicate forced sub track. I then use SupRip to open and inspect each subtitle track to eliminate the director comments tracks and the hearing impaired tracks etc. That way when I re-run Clown_BD to do the complete title rip I only include the single main subtitle track and the corresponding forced track if it exists.

The problem comes when there is a separate forced subtitle track that is not flagged as forced and therefore Clown_BD does not identify it as forced -- and doesn't create a separate "forced" sub track to let you know. A recent example = Captain America - Winter Soldier. I get suspicious when I see a small subtitle track that is not flagged as forced. I inspect it and I keep this link bookmarked which is pretty much up to date.
Movies with forced subtitles

All in all, I find that handling subs (forced or not) is a very manual process to do it the way I want. The world would be so much simpler if media players handled forced subs properly. Fortunately, the Live-SMP's I use have a dedicated SubTitle button that effortlessly cycles through the subtitle streams so it is easy to turn on the forced sub track (always muxed in first in line) for titles that need it.
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post #6556 of 6564 Old Today, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
The problem comes when there is a separate forced subtitle track that is not flagged as forced and therefore Clown_BD does not identify it as forced -- and doesn't create a separate "forced" sub track to let you know. A recent example = Captain America - Winter Soldier. I get suspicious when I see a small subtitle track that is not flagged as forced. I inspect it and I keep this link bookmarked which is pretty much up to date.
Movies with forced subtitles
Do you typically encounter smaller subtitle tracks not labeled as forced that are actually something besides subtitles that were supposed to be forced?

I also noticed that with Captain America, which is the same situation, I believe, with Kill Bill. The "forced" subtitle track is actually not forced but just another English track. So I'm thinking (in addition to probably using your clown_bd approach initially):

~~forced English track present?
rip it
~~no forced English track present but multiple un-forced English subtitle tracks present?
rip smallest one (I'm also thinking of doing a proportionality test here: i.e. largest subtitle track = "100%"; a "forced" subtitle track must be <50%ish. Because if there are no actual forced subtitles, merely ripping the smallest could result in ripping commentary tracks.)
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post #6557 of 6564 Old Today, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Do a Google search on this. There is something about not being able to directly append the Part1 & 2 disks of LOTR because the audio will be out of synch on the Part 2 section. You have to introduce a delay of the audio in TSMuxer to get it to match up. People have published what that delay should be for the three movies -- go to Google.
Thanks, I skipped to the second half of the movie, and I didn't see any problems... I am assuming it is ok, even though there was the warning after the appending? I have not tried playing it from start to finish yet on the 3rd movie... I played the first one all the way to the end, and it played flawlessly (of course there was no warning either).

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post #6558 of 6564 Old Today, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Plex can indeed do full lossless audio, but I have not yet heard of an external media player (hardware-wise) that can do Plex at full lossless audio (though, that doesn't mean there isn't one). If you set-up an HTPC, then, yes, certainly, Plex Home Theater does full blu-ray quality, assuming your hardware is good enough.
My Popcorn Hour A400 has Plex (haven't used that app yet) but full lossless through it along w/the NMJ app or YAMJ.
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post #6559 of 6564 Old Today, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Do you typically encounter smaller subtitle tracks not labeled as forced that are actually something besides subtitles that were supposed to be forced?
I don't remember any like that.


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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I also noticed that with Captain America, which is the same situation, I believe, with Kill Bill. The "forced" subtitle track is actually not forced but just another English track. So I'm thinking (in addition to probably using your clown_bd approach initially):

~~forced English track present?
rip it
~~no forced English track present but multiple un-forced English subtitle tracks present?
rip smallest one (I'm also thinking of doing a proportionality test here: i.e. largest subtitle track = "100%"; a "forced" subtitle track must be <50%ish. Because if there are no actual forced subtitles, merely ripping the smallest could result in ripping commentary tracks.)
What happens if there are multiple tracks with forced subs (Star Wars)?

What happens if there's only one (medium-sized) sub track, that BDSup2Sub doesn't flag as forced, but should be forced (The Red Violin [Canada])?

What happens if the movie is entirely in a foreign language, so you want the first English sub track fully on automatically?

I have approx 180 movies with forced subs, and of those there's at least a dozen different ways I've had to rip them to get them all correct.

You can get 99% of all movies correct (counting the 90% that don't need forced subs) using a simple automation scheme like ClownBD supports. The problem is, when it's not correct, you usually won't realize it until you're partway through watching the movie with your friends and family and suspiciously can't understand what's being said (District 9 aliens).

Believe me, I'm all for automating manual tasks, and that's a big part of my day job. But unless you can get 100% correct via automation -- and you cannot, I concluded years ago -- why go to all this trouble to improve the already automatically-correct 99% to 99.3% or 99.6%? Either way, you're still going to have a handful of movies that are missing the expected forced subs.
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
What happens if there are multiple tracks with forced subs (Star Wars)?

What happens if there's only one (medium-sized) sub track, that BDSup2Sub doesn't flag as forced, but should be forced (The Red Violin [Canada])?

What happens if the movie is entirely in a foreign language, so you want the first English sub track fully on automatically?

I have approx 180 movies with forced subs, and of those there's at least a dozen different ways I've had to rip them to get them all correct.

You can get 99% of all movies correct (counting the 90% that don't need forced subs) using a simple automation scheme like ClownBD supports. The problem is, when it's not correct, you usually won't realize it until you're partway through watching the movie with your friends and family and suspiciously can't understand what's being said (District 9 aliens).

Believe me, I'm all for automating manual tasks, and that's a big part of my day job. But unless you can get 100% correct via automation -- and you cannot, I concluded years ago -- why go to all this trouble to improve the already automatically-correct 99% to 99.3% or 99.6%? Either way, you're still going to have a handful of movies that are missing the expected forced subs.
Well, it's mostly the cases of the forced tracks being listed as secondary un-forced tracks that I'd want to accommodate for. Everything else would be gravy. Oh, and I rip foreign movies, as well as 3D movies, separately. I try to save space by not ripping all audio tracks, so for the foreign films, I rip all audio and all subtitles.

Speaking of subtitle trouble, one of my other problem discs is an issue that hasn't popped up yet (and I'm not seeing anything on teh googlez): Transformers. What's the deal here? I keep getting trivia pop-ups. I've ripped both possible titles (with only forced english subtitles selected) and they both have them. Turning off subtitles does nothing. Is this a weird case of makeMKV superimposing the "forced subtitles" onto the movie image? ... orrrr is that what makeMKV does all the time?
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post #6561 of 6564 Old Today, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Well, it's mostly the cases of the forced tracks being listed as secondary un-forced tracks that I'd want to accommodate for. Everything else would be gravy. Oh, and I rip foreign movies, as well as 3D movies, separately. I try to save space by not ripping all audio tracks, so for the foreign films, I rip all audio and all subtitles.

Speaking of subtitle trouble, one of my other problem discs is an issue that hasn't popped up yet (and I'm not seeing anything on teh googlez): Transformers. What's the deal here? I keep getting trivia pop-ups. I've ripped both possible titles (with only forced english subtitles selected) and they both have them. Turning off subtitles does nothing. Is this a weird case of makeMKV superimposing the "forced subtitles" onto the movie image? ... orrrr is that what makeMKV does all the time?
Trivia popups are likely from selecting an improper playlist. Is it the first Transformers?

Bill.
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post #6562 of 6564 Old Today, 05:19 PM
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Trivia popups are likely from selecting an improper playlist. Is it the first Transformers?

Bill.
Yes, it was the first Transformers. No, it wasn't an incorrect playlist (there were only two playlists available--I ripped both). I re-ripped without selecting any of the forced subtitles and, lo and behold, the trivia pop-ups disappeared.

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post #6563 of 6564 Old Today, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by funhouse69 View Post
There are ways to still get the full version but that might be a little more trouble then you want to deal with.
Like... clicking on the EU version link people keep posting to the forums?

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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
What are you using to extract/inspect the subtitle streams?
I screen a few seconds of the movie in VLC with subs on. If selected and none are shown, it must be the forced track.

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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
There is something about not being able to directly append the Part1 & 2 disks of LOTR because the audio will be out of synch on the Part 2 section.
Can't remember having to deal with this when I merged the discs back then. I even found an updated chapter file on the forums somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Well, it's mostly the cases of the forced tracks being listed as secondary un-forced tracks that I'd want to accommodate for.
Which will be where it's most likely gonna fail unless you gonna parse the whole menu and navigational commands.


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post #6564 of 6564 Old Today, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by funhouse69 View Post
A lot of people use DVD Fab but the they now have a "US" version that removed the Blu-Ray ripping capabilities.

DVD Fab has an MKV Pass Through option that will just convert the Blu-Ray in to a MKV file and keep all of the Audio settings intact so if the source is 7.1 / DTS it will be the same. MKV supports it. I don't know what players will play it through Plex, maybe Plex Home Theater Version?
I had DVDFab before they got into trouble... Now I have the Chinese, and the US versions, and both versions can be used with AnyDVD for decryption as I recall. I have no problems at all ripping Blurays with the Chinese, nor did I have a problem with the US version a month ago... Did they just change it?

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