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post #6571 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 04:06 AM
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Problems with forced subtitles make me want to forget my idea of ripping Blu.

My wife asked if there was a better way to store my 1200 Blu Rays (she didn't like the look of my library I guess) and I said yes, it can all be on couple of small NAS boxes.

Turns out it was much easier than I thought to get started but now I realize the forced subtitle issue doesn't seem to have a solution. Some discs have multiple forced subs. So, I guess some discs just won't be comparable with my plan.

If I have to consult a database of titles with subtitle tracks that have to be enabled manually, That doesn't work the way I hoped.

I think I'm out... Luckily my investment so far with the NAS has been small. (And, It can be used for other things as well.)

-Brian
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post #6572 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 06:11 AM
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Brain while I agree, this is only if you have issues. I first look at the database to see if there is forced soundtracks. So I do not have to go through the process twice I rip all the subtitles. Then choose it after by going through VLC player. With Mkvmerge I rip out the ones I do not need.
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post #6573 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by space2001 View Post
Brain while I agree, this is only if you have issues. I first look at the database to see if there is forced soundtracks. So I do not have to go through the process twice I rip all the subtitles. Then choose it after by going through VLC player. With Mkvmerge I rip out the ones I do not need.
And if you make a mistake you can always add the subtitles back in with mkvmerge.
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post #6574 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by techflaws View Post
Can't remember having to deal with this when I merged the discs back then. I even found an updated chapter file on the forums somewhere.
It's been a long time ago when I ran into this so my recollection of the details is very fuzzy. I was merging the Extended Editions using TSMuxer if that makes any difference.

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post #6575 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 10:35 AM
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Is anyone going to rip Transformers: Age of Extinction blu-ray with the Dolby Atmos soundtrack? I'm interested in finding out if the current software versions can distinguish the Atmos track from the traditional 7.1 track; both are included on the disk.

The reviews for this release states that only the Atmos track is available in the audio menu (along with the lossy formats) and it will default to 7.1 if you are not connected to an Atmos AVR.
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post #6576 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 11:14 AM
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^ Maybe the reviewer is confused. The player has no way to tell if the AVR supports Atmos, and the same bitstream will work on non-Atmos AVRs (the extensions just get ignored). So an Atmos track effectively defaults to 7.1 automatically, and there should be no reason to include a separate non-Atmos 7.1 track.
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post #6577 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Turns out it was much easier than I thought to get started but now I realize the forced subtitle issue doesn't seem to have a solution. Some discs have multiple forced subs. So, I guess some discs just won't be comparable with my plan.

If I have to consult a database of titles with subtitle tracks that have to be enabled manually, That doesn't work the way I hoped.

I think I'm out... Luckily my investment so far with the NAS has been small. (And, It can be used for other things as well.)

-Brian
I'm not sure what your goal is. If your playback device supports forced subs (in one form or another), and you rip your discs carefully, then no manual intervention is required at playback time. But, getting the discs ripped properly can be a hassle.
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post #6578 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 12:41 PM
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I'm not sure what your goal is. If your playback device supports forced subs (in one form or another), and you rip your discs carefully, then no manual intervention is required at playback time. But, getting the discs ripped properly can be a hassle.
I didn't realize there were playback devices that correctly handled forced subs... I use the WDLIVE and I'm new to all this.

Why the subs aren't burned it like at the movies is purely beyond me.... Actually now in the age of digital theaters ... maybe they are on a separate file at movie theaters too.... I don't know.
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post #6579 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
I didn't realize there were playback devices that correctly handled forced subs... I use the WDLIVE and I'm new to all this.

Why the subs aren't burned it like at the movies is purely beyond me.... Actually now in the age of digital theaters ... maybe they are on a separate file at movie theaters too.... I don't know.
Some of the Dunes can handle forced subs properly. I'm not sure what else is out there.

Having subs separate enables the studio to easily handle different languages on the same disc.
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post #6580 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post
^ Maybe the reviewer is confused. The player has no way to tell if the AVR supports Atmos, and the same bitstream will work on non-Atmos AVRs (the extensions just get ignored). So an Atmos track effectively defaults to 7.1 automatically, and there should be no reason to include a separate non-Atmos 7.1 track.
I think you're right. The problem was they listed the 7.1 track (as part of the disc spec) along side the Atmos track as well as the usual lossy formats. This lead the reviewer to think it was a discrete track. Even blu-ray.com's review lists TrueHD 7.1 separately from Dolby Atmos.
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post #6581 of 6852 Old 09-30-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Problems with forced subtitles make me want to forget my idea of ripping Blu.
What problems? Granted, they take a bit of extra work but once you've muxed them as first track and set the flags properly, it's no issue (especailly given the comparatively small amoun of BDs with forced subs out there).

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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
I was merging the Extended Editions using TSMuxer if that makes any difference.
I was using MKVToolnix, worked just fine and plays on the WDTV too.

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post #6582 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techflaws View Post
What problems? Granted, they take a bit of extra work but once you've muxed them as first track and set the flags properly, it's no issue (especailly given the comparatively small amoun of BDs with forced subs out there).


I was using MKVToolnix, worked just fine and plays on the WDTV too.
Ok... I'm still learning. I have so far tried identifying the forced subs and will read up on things like flags and muxing... (I think I've muxed something once ... I'm not a good muxer so far.)

I'm actually fine with having to do a lot of stuff "by hand" as it's fun in some way... I like my hobbies time consuming.

Thanks,

-Brain
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post #6583 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Ok... I'm still learning. I have so far tried identifying the forced subs and will read up on things like flags and muxing... (I think I've muxed something once ... I'm not a good muxer so far.)

I'm actually fine with having to do a lot of stuff "by hand" as it's fun in some way... I like my hobbies time consuming.

Thanks,

-Brain
Coping with forced subs requires manual intervention because virtually no players handle forced subs in their native form. By necessity, your point of reference starts with your player(s) and its capabilities -- that determines what you need to do. Like Techflaws, I extract forced subs to a separate sub track and mux it in first in line. I don't concern myself with sub flags because I use WD Live-SMP players which ignore flags on sub tracks but has a nice button on the remote to turn on and cycle through the subs. I mux the forced sub in first and put a flag in the title name to tell me it has forced subs -- as soon as the movie plays I press the sub button once and forced subs are turned on -- simple.

Identifying forced subs in a title can also be quite simple. The first thing I do is check this reference so I know what to expect. Then I use Clown_BD to do a quick extract of all the English subs and inspect them using SupRip. Clown properly identifies and extracts 90% of forced subs into a separate track labeled "forced". I then know which sub tracks to include in the rip and Clown automatically muxes the forced sub in first in the list. The only ones that require a bit extra work are the forced subs that are not properly flagged and that Clown can't identify. From the reference above I know they are there and it is just a matter of picking them out during the inspection for inclusion in the rip.

Once you have a method established everything just flows along.
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post #6584 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 12:01 PM
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Ok. I'm very confused between all of the SUB stuff (let me explain). I've ripped my BD's using ToNMT but one downside of that tool is, even though there are boxes to check to select subtitle tracks, it won't add any subtitles. For foreign films I've gone and downloaded the entire .srt file (getting it to play in-time w/the movie takes some work during the entire movie process) and I have a Popcorn Hour A400.

For some titles (the last Die Hard movie) I realized once I start watching I don't know what they are saying since no subs appear (so i download the entire .srt movie sub). Some movies (can't think of one off the top of my head) HAVE the subs appear during the movie without me having done anything.

I've never used TsMuxer on its own (though that program is used in ToNMT) or MakeMV but I'm willing to use one of those IF it can do what I need: only have the subtitles appear when necessary (like the last Die Hard movie).

It sounds like one of those programs would do the 'trick'?

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post #6585 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Wryker View Post
I've never used TsMuxer on its own (though that program is used in ToNMT) or MakeMV but I'm willing to use one of those IF it can do what I need: only have the subtitles appear when necessary (like the last Die Hard movie).

It sounds like one of those programs would do the 'trick'?
Knowing nothing about the A400, the first question to ask is what are the capabilities of the player with regards to how it handles forced subs? Everything else follows from there. If it doesn't process flags properly, there is not much you can do to get forced subs to play automatically.

As to software, I know a lot of people like to use MKV but from what I have seen the MKV tools are not the best to use when you have to cope with the various types of forced subtitles. IMHO I think it is hard to beat Clown_BD because as part of its process it fully demuxes the BD title and puts the streams in a separate folder so they can be inspected. I have ripped BD titles with 4 & 5 English subtitle tracks and would have no clue which one was the movie track and which ones were director commentary or hearing impaired subs unless I used Clown_BD to demux them so I could inspect them to see what is what -- then of course there are the forced subs. After having done several hundred disks over the last couple years, I would never give up the control I have with Clown_BD and should I ever decide I wanted to start using MKV files instead of .m2ts, I would still use Clown_BD to do the processing and then just use MakeMKV to convert the Clown output to an MKV file.

PS - with my players the only subs that appear automatically are the ones that are hard-coded into the movie frames.

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post #6586 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
Problems with forced subtitles make me want to forget my idea of ripping Blu.

My wife asked if there was a better way to store my 1200 Blu Rays (she didn't like the look of my library I guess) and I said yes, it can all be on couple of small NAS boxes.

Turns out it was much easier than I thought to get started but now I realize the forced subtitle issue doesn't seem to have a solution. Some discs have multiple forced subs. So, I guess some discs just won't be comparable with my plan.

If I have to consult a database of titles with subtitle tracks that have to be enabled manually, That doesn't work the way I hoped.

I think I'm out... Luckily my investment so far with the NAS has been small. (And, It can be used for other things as well.)

-Brian
For 2D BDs you can also use one of the other media players that handle full BD menus. I use a PCH C200 and I have a Netgear player. I use them if I want the full menus with 2D content. FOr 3D content I have no choice. I have to use my PCH A00 media players which doesn't have full BD menus.

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post #6587 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

PS - with my players the only subs that appear automatically are the ones that are hard-coded into the movie frames.
And those hard-coded subs would likewise appear on any player. It seems to me that this is the path everyone should take as it future-proofs their rips.

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post #6588 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Knowing nothing about the A400, the first question to ask is what are the capabilities of the player with regards to how it handles forced subs? Everything else follows from there. If it doesn't process flags properly, there is not much you can do to get forced subs to play automatically.

As to software, I know a lot of people like to use MKV but from what I have seen the MKV tools are not the best to use when you have to cope with the various types of forced subtitles. IMHO I think it is hard to beat Clown_BD because as part of its process it fully demuxes the BD title and puts the streams in a separate folder so they can be inspected. I have ripped BD titles with 4 & 5 English subtitle tracks and would have no clue which one was the movie track and which ones were director commentary or hearing impaired subs unless I used Clown_BD to demux them so I could inspect them to see what is what -- then of course there are the forced subs. After having done several hundred disks over the last couple years, I would never give up the control I have with Clown_BD and should I ever decide I wanted to start using MKV files instead of .m2ts, I would still use Clown_BD to do the processing and then just use MakeMKV to convert the Clown output to an MKV file.

PS - with my players the only subs that appear automatically are the ones that are hard-coded into the movie frames.
I forgot that I've used ClownBD in the past (it's been quite some time since I used it) so I'd be interested in how you determine which stream IS a forced sub one to just get the subs that would appear in the theater/ISO file. I'm guessing the hard-coded ones are what I'm seeing on those rips. The A400 can play subs since I've played them before and I'd 'bet' it handles forced subs too.

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post #6589 of 6852 Old 10-01-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Wryker View Post
I'd be interested in how you determine which stream IS a forced sub one to just get the subs that would appear in the theater/ISO file.
Just read my posts from the last couple days we have been discussing this, starting from here:
Ripping Blu-Rays II

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Blu-Ray to DVD Ripping

I have a car with a built-in DVD player.

Last year we got our first Blu-ray player in the house, and now we have been buying almost exclusively blu-rays, but of course they won't play in the car.

With a long journey coming up in a few weeks, the children have been asking me to see if I can find a way to get the blu-rays to play on the in-car system.

Is there any software (preferably simple click and go type software) which can rip a blu-ray, convert it to dvd format and burn it to a dvd so it will play in a dvd player?

Thanks
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post #6591 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Camperdownfamily View Post
I have a car with a built-in DVD player.

Last year we got our first Blu-ray player in the house, and now we have been buying almost exclusively blu-rays, but of course they won't play in the car.

With a long journey coming up in a few weeks, the children have been asking me to see if I can find a way to get the blu-rays to play on the in-car system.

Is there any software (preferably simple click and go type software) which can rip a blu-ray, convert it to dvd format and burn it to a dvd so it will play in a dvd player?

Thanks
Welcome to AVSForum.

There is a commercial product called DVDFab which has a module just for this: Blu-Ray to DVD conversion. You need to download it from an international site because of new restrictions on its decrypting ability in the US. Check the last few pages of this thread for details, or I'm sure others will help you.

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post #6592 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 07:42 AM
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^ Maybe the reviewer is confused. The player has no way to tell if the AVR supports Atmos, and the same bitstream will work on non-Atmos AVRs (the extensions just get ignored). So an Atmos track effectively defaults to 7.1 automatically, and there should be no reason to include a separate non-Atmos 7.1 track.
Has anyone ripped this using MakeMKV or Clown? MakeMKV only sees a 5.1 track that it doesnt even call lossless or TrueHD, and Clown calls the first audio track "TrueHD/AC3 English unknown parameters". Clown also finds another audio track that it calls 5.1 and says "Bitstream parsing for track 3 failed". I have never seen these issues before so I have to assume it has to do with the ripping software not recognizing Atmos encoding or something like that?

EDIT: Nevermind... I see over in the MakeMKV forums there is a discussion on Atmos and it is stated that this will be fixed in a soon to be released update.

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post #6593 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 08:00 AM
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^ I guess players (and by extension rippers) were expected to ignore any header parameters they didn't recognize, rather than throw an error. Actual Blu-ray players hopefully work with these bitstreams.
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post #6594 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Camperdownfamily View Post
I have a car with a built-in DVD player.

Last year we got our first Blu-ray player in the house, and now we have been buying almost exclusively blu-rays, but of course they won't play in the car.

With a long journey coming up in a few weeks, the children have been asking me to see if I can find a way to get the blu-rays to play on the in-car system.

Is there any software (preferably simple click and go type software) which can rip a blu-ray, convert it to dvd format and burn it to a dvd so it will play in a dvd player?

Thanks
You'd need to convert it to an MPEG-2 format.

DVDFlick is the software I used to use for this.

There are other ways, but this is the simplest.
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post #6595 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by smitbret View Post
You'd need to convert it to an MPEG-2 format.

DVDFlick is the software I used to use for this.

There are other ways, but this is the simplest.
A lot of people note that DVDFlick is simple but complain about audio/video synch issues. AVStoDVD is more recommended, but has a bit more of a learning curve.

Subtitles are an issue, especially BluRay forced subs, and I'm not sure how, or if, any of these programs handle transforming PGS subs into VOBSUB format.

The best solution for people who want BD but foresee the possible need for a DVD copy is to spend the couple extra dollars and buy the BD+DVD combo packs they push at all the stores.

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post #6596 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post
Has anyone ripped this using MakeMKV or Clown? MakeMKV only sees a 5.1 track that it doesnt even call lossless or TrueHD, and Clown calls the first audio track "TrueHD/AC3 English unknown parameters". Clown also finds another audio track that it calls 5.1 and says "Bitstream parsing for track 3 failed". I have never seen these issues before so I have to assume it has to do with the ripping software not recognizing Atmos encoding or something like that?
I ripped Transformers: Age of Extinction using ClownBD and got it all working. Clown had some warnings on the audio track, and was confused about the subtitle tracks. It took some hand manipulation to get the forced subtitles to work properly (they start at timecode 1:06:05).
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post #6597 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 12:40 PM
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That movie was hella long...
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post #6598 of 6852 Old 10-03-2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by smitbret View Post
You'd need to convert it to an MPEG-2 format.
Maybe not. Could be this player supports other codecs as well.

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post #6599 of 6852 Old 10-04-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by techflaws View Post
Maybe not. Could be this player supports other codecs as well.
True, OP just said he wanted to convert it to DVD format so I went with that.

There is always the chance it supports MPEG-4 or even DivX/Xvid which would make things a little easier. OP may want to consult his user's manual or even post the model of DVD player.
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post #6600 of 6852 Old 10-04-2014, 07:26 AM
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If it is a DVD player, at the very least the BD will have to be down-rez'd to 480i.

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The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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