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post #6661 of 6866 Old 10-19-2014, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I don't understand what there is to discuss. If you find a tool that accomplishes what you want, then go for it. Just know that this is not "eye of the beholder" territory, but "mind of the beholder."

No one else can look through your eyes at your display to refute or verify your perceptions.

Jeff

I suppose people could discuss problems, how to's, fixes, tools, etc etc involving the compression process.

People could also talk about objective pq utilizing optical metrics.

In the end, let's all just be constructive [emoji4]
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post #6662 of 6866 Old 10-19-2014, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
I suppose people could discuss problems, how to's, fixes, tools, etc etc involving the compression process.

People could also talk about objective pq utilizing optical metrics.

In the end, let's all just be constructive [emoji4]
I would like to hear about utilizing optical metrics to quantify picture quality.

Jeff
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post #6663 of 6866 Old 10-19-2014, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
You should crop out the letterboxing as this will save some bit rate.

Here's a tip: talk about the topic or ask questions but never say things like "people should compress" or "there's no difference in pq" as you will get jumped on for making remarks anywhere close to that. Even if you start it with "I think" or "IMO", just don't, it's safer that way.
In all honesty I think I was just more or less excited to see that I could encode a gigantic movie (Godfather was like 38GB) and save half the space on my HDD. What it looked like was very promising results. I wanted to share those results and get feedback like "yeah I have had similar results." or "what you see isn't necessarily what you are getting."

Anyhow, I definitely noticed the grainy films (such as old films like Godfather) encoded to much larger file sizes. I don't think I'm going to aim for a specific file size. I just want to keep the quality and the HD audio track while gaining a few GB in saving disk space.

Also, I'm speculating that the lower bitrate filesize might help the transcoder when streaming content to other devices. I have yet to experiment.

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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I would like to hear about utilizing optical metrics to quantify picture quality.

Jeff
Honestly, I think that would be great. I would love to see how the results would vary from the two different bitrates (same film).

From what I have seen (my eyes very well may be lying) is that further encoding may as well have been done on the studios side for a better bitrate and reduced file size. In all actuality though I guess it doesn't matter because Blu Ray discs are so large to begin with.

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post #6664 of 6866 Old 10-19-2014, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I would like to hear about utilizing optical metrics to quantify picture quality.
That's what Beamr Video is supposed to do. AFAIK it's only available as a commercial solution, sold to Netflix et al.
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post #6665 of 6866 Old 10-19-2014, 10:34 PM
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Ripping Blu-Rays II

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I would like to hear about utilizing optical metrics to quantify picture quality.



Jeff

PSNR and SSIM are the easiest. Not saying it's 100%, just saying it is objective.

Edit: Let me clarify that when I talk of transparency in a compressed video I am not saying it is bit for bit exact. I have never and will never make claims like this. What I am saying however is that something I find transparent is so close to the source that it's not worth fretting about. Yes, I understand that some people will be up in arms if there is one off colored pixel in a single frame somewhere in the video, but I'm not that person [emoji4]

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post #6666 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
You should crop out the letterboxing as this will save some bit rate.

Here's a tip: talk about the topic or ask questions but never say things like "people should compress" or "there's no difference in pq" as you will get jumped on for making remarks anywhere close to that. Even if you start it with "I think" or "IMO", just don't, it's safer that way [emoji1]




The absolute biggest factor is file size compression, if resolution is the same, will be the amount of grain a film has and the complexity/amount of gradients a film has. This is why animated films, which normally have very little grain and is mostly large sections of solid colors, compress so well.

If you absolutely need a file to be a specific size, then yes, do 2-3 pass. If you only need the file around a ballpark size then IMO you are better off sticking to crf and tweaking the crf value or other settings that affect compression like Decimation.

If you open up a CLI session in your x264 folder and type: "x264 --fullhelp" without the quotes you can see all the switches available.
Yeah, I understand that. It just surprised me how much difference there was between Godzilla and Transformers: Age of Extinction. I don't remember that much grain in Transformers, but there is little doubt that Transformers scenes were a lot more complex. I guess robots with all of their moving parts use a lot of bandwidth. I remember when they first Transformers came out there was a discussion of how much rendering time it took to make their transformations and it was something ridiculous like 24 hours to render a 20 second transformation.

Still, most 2 Hour BDs that I re encode come in between 8-12GB. It was surprising to see Godzilla that low. You just never know. At this point, there's no way to accurately predict a destination size until the CF encode is actually done.
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post #6667 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
You should crop out the letterboxing as this will save some bit rate.

If you absolutely need a file to be a specific size, then yes, do 2-3 pass. If you only need the file around a ballpark size then IMO you are better off sticking to crf and tweaking the crf value or other settings that affect compression like Decimation.
How do you crop the letterboxing and keep the full frame? Is this the cropping feature under the picture tab?

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PSNR and SSIM are the easiest. Not saying it's 100%, just saying it is objective.
I've noticed these are settings under "tune" how do they correlate to judging quality?

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post #6668 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
That's what Beamr Video is supposed to do. AFAIK it's only available as a commercial solution, sold to Netflix et al.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
PSNR and SSIM are the easiest. Not saying it's 100%, just saying it is objective.

Edit: Let me clarify that when I talk of transparency in a compressed video I am not saying it is bit for bit exact. I have never and will never make claims like this. What I am saying however is that something I find transparent is so close to the source that it's not worth fretting about. Yes, I understand that some people will be up in arms if there is one off colored pixel in a single frame somewhere in the video, but I'm not that person [emoji4]
Beamr is a tool to compress, and from my quick read I'd guess that they developed better perceptual encoding. I was asking about a tool that would objectively compare, i.e. without human involvement, a 1:1 rip of a retail Blu-ray with a re-encoded copy.

Jeff
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post #6669 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Beamr is a tool to compress, and from my quick read I'd guess that they developed better perceptual encoding. I was asking about a tool that would objectively compare, i.e. without human involvement, a 1:1 rip of a retail Blu-ray with a re-encoded copy.
Their "breakthrough" is not in perceptual encoding, but a better way to measure the visible differences between two videos. (Call it perceptual differencing?) They repeatedly try different reencodings, with varying compression parameters, and measure the visible degradation. If it's too much, they throw it out and try again.
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post #6670 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 01:51 PM
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Can Handbrake be used to re-code DD 5.1/AC3 audio into AAC for the .MP4 container while leaving the video alone and just passing it through?

I have some HDTV recording files from my TiVo I'm been experimenting with. I used Video ReDo to convert the MPEG-2 files to H.264 and saved them as .m2ts. Unfortunately this was a while ago and I have since deleted the original .tivo MPEG-2 source. Recently, I used VRD to re-mux them into an .MP4 container to experiment with playing them on my TiVo. Apparently VRD leaves the audio as AC3. When I send them back to my TiVo the video plays but not the audio. Someone in another thread suggested the audio would need to be converted from AC3 to AAC for the MP4 container.

So the files are already H.264 encoded and I don't want Handbrake to re-code them yet another time -- just convert the audio and remux. Can Handbrake do this? Can it take the .m2ts file, convert the audio to AAC and remux to MP4 while just passing the video stream through?

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post #6671 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
Their "breakthrough" is not in perceptual encoding, but a better way to measure the visible differences between two videos. (Call it perceptual differencing?) They repeatedly try different reencodings, with varying compression parameters, and measure the visible degradation. If it's too much, they throw it out and try again.
It's the measuring part that interests me, and just how that could be done objectively. Of course, the followup question is would you want to objectively measure a subjective difference? Ooooo, down the rabbit hole ....

Jeff
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post #6672 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Can Handbrake be used to re-code DD 5.1/AC3 audio into AAC for the .MP4 container while leaving the video alone and just passing it through?

I have some HDTV recording files from my TiVo I'm been experimenting with. I used Video ReDo to convert the MPEG-2 files to H.264 and saved them as .m2ts. Unfortunately this was a while ago and I have since deleted the original .tivo MPEG-2 source. Recently, I used VRD to re-mux them into an .MP4 container to experiment with playing them on my TiVo. Apparently VRD leaves the audio as AC3. When I send them back to my TiVo the video plays but not the audio. Someone in another thread suggested the audio would need to be converted from AC3 to AAC for the MP4 container.

So the files are already H.264 encoded and I don't want Handbrake to re-code them yet another time -- just convert the audio and remux. Can Handbrake do this? Can it take the .m2ts file, convert the audio to AAC and remux to MP4 while just passing the video stream through?
No, Handbrake forces you to re-encode the video and sometimes it drives me nuts. I use Super for those cases when I just want to re-encode the audio. If I don't fell like messing with Super, I will often just set up a re-encode with Handbrake at the lowest resolution and fastest settings for video (think 160p). Then I just mux out the new audio track and remux into the original .mp4 with Yamb or into .mkv with MKVMerge.

You don't have to have .aac for an .mp4 container but a large of amount of devices still demand an .mp4 with .aac as the 1st audio stream. To keep it compliant but still have true 5.1 audio, I will often create an .mp4 file with 2 audio tracks:
#1 : .aac DPLII 160kb/s
#2 : .ac3 5.1ch 448-640kb/s

Last edited by smitbret; 10-20-2014 at 08:08 PM.
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post #6673 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 08:42 PM
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Ripping Blu-Rays II

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Originally Posted by smitbret View Post
Yeah, I understand that. It just surprised me how much difference there was between Godzilla and Transformers: Age of Extinction. I don't remember that much grain in Transformers, but there is little doubt that Transformers scenes were a lot more complex. I guess robots with all of their moving parts use a lot of bandwidth. I remember when they first Transformers came out there was a discussion of how much rendering time it took to make their transformations and it was something ridiculous like 24 hours to render a 20 second transformation.



Still, most 2 Hour BDs that I re encode come in between 8-12GB. It was surprising to see Godzilla that low. You just never know. At this point, there's no way to accurately predict a destination size until the CF encode is actually done.
Transformers not only has 40 more minutes on Godzilla, but I'm sure that transformers also has a lot bright static scenes, all of which contributes to needing more bits.

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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
How do you crop the letterboxing and keep the full frame? Is this the cropping feature under the picture tab?







I've noticed these are settings under "tune" how do they correlate to judging quality?
I don't use handbrake so I'm not so sure how to use its cropping tool.

Psnr and ssim are metrics for pq. The tune feature will optimize certain parameters to increase whichever metric you chose to go with. You can have the encoder spit out the actual number for psnr or ssim after the encode. The higher the number the closer it is to the source. My advice is, don't get caught up with the numbers game and just let your eyes be the judge.

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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Can Handbrake be used to re-code DD 5.1/AC3 audio into AAC for the .MP4 container while leaving the video alone and just passing it through?



I have some HDTV recording files from my TiVo I'm been experimenting with. I used Video ReDo to convert the MPEG-2 files to H.264 and saved them as .m2ts. Unfortunately this was a while ago and I have since deleted the original .tivo MPEG-2 source. Recently, I used VRD to re-mux them into an .MP4 container to experiment with playing them on my TiVo. Apparently VRD leaves the audio as AC3. When I send them back to my TiVo the video plays but not the audio. Someone in another thread suggested the audio would need to be converted from AC3 to AAC for the MP4 container.



So the files are already H.264 encoded and I don't want Handbrake to re-code them yet another time -- just convert the audio and remux. Can Handbrake do this? Can it take the .m2ts file, convert the audio to AAC and remux to MP4 while just passing the video stream through?

AFAIK, handbrake will not pass video through as video processing is what this app was built for. What you could do is use eac3to to transcode your audio file then use mkvmerge to mux them together.
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post #6674 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 08:54 PM
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Can Handbrake be used to re-code DD 5.1/AC3 audio into AAC for the .MP4 container while leaving the video alone and just passing it through?
AVIDeMux can.
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post #6675 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 08:59 PM
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You should crop out the letterboxing as this will save some bit rate....
Since the letterbox bars are an unmodulated solid color you'll save very little.
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post #6676 of 6866 Old 10-20-2014, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by smitbret View Post
No, Handbrake forces you to re-encode the video . . .
You don't have to have .aac for an .mp4 container but a large of amount of devices still demand an .mp4 with .aac as the 1st audio stream. To keep it compliant but still have true 5.1 audio, I will often create an .mp4 file with 2 audio tracks:
#1 : .aac DPLII 160kb/s
#2 : .ac3 5.1ch 448-640kb/s
Thank you and @DotJun & @olyteddy for the responses.

Turns out I can change the MP4 profile in Video ReDo to convert the audio from AC3 to AAC while leaving the video alone. However, when doing so VRD flattens the 5.1 AC3 to 2.0 AAC and I lose surround sound. The resulting file now plays on my TiVo and gives me audio but I'm not thrilled with it being 2.0.

@smitbret -- if I am reading your post correctly, it tells me that this is not a limitation of VRD but that AAC is only 2.0 which is why you also include an AC3 5.1 audio track in your MP4's. Is this the case?

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Since the letterbox bars are an unmodulated solid color you'll save very little.
And that's why I said "some" bits. This becomes more important to people that are doing extreme compression where every bit counts.

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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Thank you and @DotJun & @olyteddy for the responses.



Turns out I can change the MP4 profile in Video ReDo to convert the audio from AC3 to AAC while leaving the video alone. However, when doing so VRD flattens the 5.1 AC3 to 2.0 AAC and I lose surround sound. The resulting file now plays on my TiVo and gives me audio but I'm not thrilled with it being 2.0.


@smitbret -- if I am reading your post correctly, it tells me that this is not a limitation of VRD but that AAC is only 2.0 which is why you also include an AC3 5.1 audio track in your MP4's. Is this the case?

IIRC, aac is capable of 5.1 but Apple devices only supported 2.0? It's been a while for me since I worked with any kind of stand alone players so please someone educate me on this [emoji4]
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post #6678 of 6866 Old 10-21-2014, 06:19 AM
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And that's why I said "some" bits. This becomes more important to people that are doing extreme compression where every bit counts.




IIRC, aac is capable of 5.1 but Apple devices only supported 2.0? It's been a while for me since I worked with any kind of stand alone players so please someone educate me on this [emoji4]
This.

The first audio stream in the .mp4/.m4v must be a 2-channel .aac track. I've found that you can have pretty much any other .mp4 compliant audio track as the 2nd and it will still work fine (.ac3, multi-channel .aac, etc.). The primary audio track can be stereo or DPLII, so I just do the DPLII because my audio system supports the simulated surround and I am often too lazy to just change the audio track to stream 2.

Really, though, I don't do .mp4 much anymore as I don't have any Apple devices in my home at this point. Most of my mobile devices are supporting multi-channel audio. I have a Kindle Fire for the kids that needs .mp4, so it's a lot easier to just be able to remux from the .mkv than it is to re rip and re encode.

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post #6679 of 6866 Old 10-21-2014, 06:21 AM
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IIRC, aac is capable of 5.1 but Apple devices only supported 2.0?
I looked up the specs. for AAC and it is capable of 5.1 so this must be a VRD limitation. I'll give the AVIdemux utility @olyteddy cited a look and see what it can do.

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The first audio stream in the .mp4/.m4v must be a 2-channel .aac track. I've found that you can have pretty much any other .mp4 compliant audio track as the 2nd and it will still work fine (.ac3, multi-channel .aac, etc.). The primary audio track can be stereo or DPLII, so I just do the DPLII because my audio system supports the simulated surround and I am often too lazy to just change the audio track to stream 2.
Thanks a lot for the info. I've never played with .mp4 containers before so I was not aware of that compatibility restriction for the first audio track. The TiVo obviously follows that restriction -- it's a pity it can't play MKV.

That pretty much kills .mp4 for me in this application because the TiVo can't select an audio track and will just play the first one which will be stereo. So thanks for the info, you have saved me from wasting any more time on this.

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Yeah, I understand that. It just surprised me how much difference there was between Godzilla and Transformers: Age of Extinction. I don't remember that much grain in Transformers, but there is little doubt that Transformers scenes were a lot more complex. I guess robots with all of their moving parts use a lot of bandwidth. I remember when they first Transformers came out there was a discussion of how much rendering time it took to make their transformations and it was something ridiculous like 24 hours to render a 20 second transformation.

Still, most 2 Hour BDs that I re encode come in between 8-12GB. It was surprising to see Godzilla that low. You just never know. At this point, there's no way to accurately predict a destination size until the CF encode is actually done.
Transformers AOE I wouldn't call it 'grain heavy' but there is certainly grain througout the movie. It's also quite a sharp, detailed image.

Godzilla has little or no grain and is rather soft and drab with not much fine detail. As you would expect, it was shot on Alexa and has a 2K DI.

So naturally Transformers is less compressible. Rapid scene cuts and high-action camera work also cause a movie to be less compressible than movies with more deliberate cinematography.
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Hi to all, Im new to this forum but im very interested in blu-ray copy, Anyone know about the new mybd tool released by Cinemartin at mybd.cinemartin.com They said are capable of convert Blurays to hevc h265. It appears to be a coppier, backup, decrypter and converter, say no other tool required, what do you think guys about ? I will try the free version. The size they said are crazy !, just 2% of a bluray
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Originally Posted by CesarLorean View Post
Hi to all, Im new to this forum but im very interested in blu-ray copy, Anyone know about the new mybd tool released by Cinemartin at mybd.cinemartin.com They said are capable of convert Blurays to hevc h265. It appears to be a coppier, backup, decrypter and converter, say no other tool required, what do you think guys about ? I will try the free version. The size they said are crazy !, just 2% of a bluray
I'm not familiar and am not opposed to trying it out... However, makemkv is an excellent tool and handbrake's nightly build (includes HEVC) is by far the best tool I've used for (re) encoding.

Living room theater set-up:  
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1124-K.
Speakers/Sub: (4) NHT Classic Two and an NHT TwoC center + PSA-XV15 subwoofer.
HTPC: z97 mobo, 16GB mem, i5-4440, SSD+HD, LG BD drive, Win 8.1 pro w/WMC + MB3.
Content sources: OTA Winegard HD7698P, Amazon Fire TV Stick, Netflix etc.
HDTV: Sharp LC-60SQ15U (ehhh).
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post #6684 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post
I'm not familiar and am not opposed to trying it out... However, makemkv is an excellent tool and handbrake's nightly build (includes HEVC) is by far the best tool I've used for (re) encoding.
Thats true, but I will be more confortable using only one app, like DVDfab or MyBD than using 2 or more different apps (makmkv and handbrake) for my backup purposes, Just load a BD, press one button, wait and nothing more to do, well, at least I think that will be best.

I will try both DVDFab and MyBD and i will try to give you my reports too if i have time for.
Thank you
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post #6685 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 03:54 PM
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I've been ripping DVDs to my iMac to play over AppleTV (3). I plan to pick up a pioneer usb3 drive to rip Blu-Rays and use makeMKV with handbrake. If ripped properly with this setup, Will I be able to play the movies with DTS-MA or TrueHD? If not, what is the week link?
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post #6686 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CesarLorean View Post
Thats true, but I will be more confortable using only one app, like DVDfab or MyBD than using 2 or more different apps (makmkv and handbrake) for my backup purposes, Just load a BD, press one button, wait and nothing more to do, well, at least I think that will be best.

I will try both DVDFab and MyBD and i will try to give you my reports too if i have time for.
Thank you
I promise you it will not be that easy. "pressing one button" is none existent in this hobby. I have a dozen or so mouse clicks before I get my final product. Sure, if you want to just rip to MKV via DVDfab or makemkv then it will be much simpler... but to re-encode will likely lead you down many more steps to completion. DVDfab used to allow for a pretty seamless operation but I haven't used it since it booted me out of the program (free trial).

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Originally Posted by meegwell View Post
I've been ripping DVDs to my iMac to play over AppleTV (3). I plan to pick up a pioneer usb3 drive to rip Blu-Rays and use makeMKV with handbrake. If ripped properly with this setup, Will I be able to play the movies with DTS-MA or TrueHD? If not, what is the week link?
I'm not quite sure what "setup" you are referring to? YOu need a compatible AVR to utilize DTS HD or TrueHD. I don't think AppleTV support either.

Living room theater set-up:  
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1124-K.
Speakers/Sub: (4) NHT Classic Two and an NHT TwoC center + PSA-XV15 subwoofer.
HTPC: z97 mobo, 16GB mem, i5-4440, SSD+HD, LG BD drive, Win 8.1 pro w/WMC + MB3.
Content sources: OTA Winegard HD7698P, Amazon Fire TV Stick, Netflix etc.
HDTV: Sharp LC-60SQ15U (ehhh).
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post #6687 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhughy2010 View Post



I'm not quite sure what "setup" you are referring to? YOu need a compatible AVR to utilize DTS HD or TrueHD. I don't think AppleTV support either.
Sorry I thought I gave enough info but I understand why you're asking. Yes, I have the appropriate home theater setup and the AVR decodes DTS-MA and TrueHD. The Apple TV feeds to the AVR via HDMI.

My question was really focused on the rip/convert portion. The "setup" being: blu-ray drive > usb3.0 > makeMKV > Handbrake > AppleTV > HDMI > AVR.

I am familiar with doing DVD > handbrake > AppleTV... But am about to be new to ripping Blu Rays and concerned about the ability, given the proper settings, to maintain DTS-MA or TruHD when playing movies stored on my HDD, from the setup explained above.
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post #6688 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kelson View Post
if you have lifetime subscription, download the eu version which has all the decryption capabilities intact.

http://174.142.97.100/download/dvdfab9168.exe
thanks!
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post #6689 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meegwell View Post
Sorry I thought I gave enough info but I understand why you're asking. Yes, I have the appropriate home theater setup and the AVR decodes DTS-MA and TrueHD. The Apple TV feeds to the AVR via HDMI.

My question was really focused on the rip/convert portion. The "setup" being: blu-ray drive > usb3.0 > makeMKV > Handbrake > AppleTV > HDMI > AVR.

I am familiar with doing DVD > handbrake > AppleTV... But am about to be new to ripping Blu Rays and concerned about the ability, given the proper settings, to maintain DTS-MA or TruHD when playing movies stored on my HDD, from the setup explained above.
I'm still having a hard time understanding what you are asking. I'm assuming you are saying that you are going to use an external BD Drive to rip your BD films onto an Apple Computer of some sort and then store the media onto an external hard drive? Then you want your AppleTV to play the MKV files? I'm not sure an AppleTV will play direct play MKV or MP4... it doesn't sound like it will support high bitrates but a re-encoded might work... there doesn't seem to be a USB input on the AppleTV though so I doubt you'll get the AppleTV to read the files unless networked to a server somehow.

Lastly... the AppleTV doesn't support DTS-HD or TrueHD.

Living room theater set-up:  
AVR: Pioneer VSX-1124-K.
Speakers/Sub: (4) NHT Classic Two and an NHT TwoC center + PSA-XV15 subwoofer.
HTPC: z97 mobo, 16GB mem, i5-4440, SSD+HD, LG BD drive, Win 8.1 pro w/WMC + MB3.
Content sources: OTA Winegard HD7698P, Amazon Fire TV Stick, Netflix etc.
HDTV: Sharp LC-60SQ15U (ehhh).
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post #6690 of 6866 Old 10-22-2014, 11:04 PM
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Nor PGS subs straight from BD.

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