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post #9361 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
Maybe this will help: Forced Subtitles with ClownBD

Thanks.


Way crazy too get a subtitle forced properly played. Since it appears I will still need to re-rip affected movies to use that method since I do not keep all the work files after the fact I might as well use MakeMKV and the toolkit to get things in place then ether leave as MKV which means not playable in all my devices or then convert back to M2TS and hope it then sees a track I have forced.


I know forced subs playback is a complex pain in the butt, but really it makes little sense as to why it needs to be. Playing the actual disc figures it out, but that's another discussion. Thanks for the lead.


-B
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post #9362 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by smitbret View Post
I can't speak for MakeMKV, I don't use it, but when I remux my BD rips, mkvToolnix allows me to flag any track as default or forced. If you already have a complete .mkv file, it can be loaded into mkvToolnix and you can flag the track via the Header Editor without remuxing.

You are correct. Problem is, it doesn't output a M2TS file from a M2TS, only MKV which means another mix back to MT2S. With all that mixing I might as well re-rip and start again. Just need to figure out how many "finished" files I have that have a forced sub that isn't really going to show up. Not much fun anymore.


-B
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post #9363 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bbusse View Post
I know forced subs playback is a complex pain in the butt, but really it makes little sense as to why it needs to be. Playing the actual disc figures it out, but that's another discussion. Thanks for the lead.
Yes it's complex and a pain. Easily the biggest pain of ripping discs as movie-only. But now that I have a solid process down, it's pretty smooth.

When I'm ripping a batch of movies, I extract all the subs first and manually look them over in BDSup2Sub. I fix anything that needs fixing. Then I restart the rips with the fixes. I have it mostly automated.
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post #9364 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 01:20 PM
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Yes it's complex and a pain. Easily the biggest pain of ripping discs as movie-only. But now that I have a solid process down, it's pretty smooth.

When I'm ripping a batch of movies, I extract all the subs first and manually look them over in BDSup2Sub. I fix anything that needs fixing. Then I restart the rips with the fixes. I have it mostly automated.

This is a case of relative. Automated to me is not that procedure!


If there were a M2TS toolbox like there is for MKV it would border on automated. I'm looking at quite a few do-overs just off the top of my head and many others I won't think of until I am watching the movie and see the problem.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...2&pli=1#gid=20


covers about 10% of the movies I have.


-B
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post #9365 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bbusse View Post
This is a case of relative. Automated to me is not that procedure!
Haha fair enough. I've found that there is no 100% reliable automated way to do it. 98% or 99% reliable, sure. But that 1 or 2% that slip through are a big problem. You're sitting there watching a movie with friends & family when they start speaking some foreign language. It's not immediately clear if there's supposed to be subtitles or not. Eventually you realize that you have no idea what's going on anymore.

I've settled on this manual/automated way as the best 100% reliable method.
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post #9366 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 02:24 PM
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When I'm ripping a batch of movies, I extract all the subs first and manually look them over in BDSup2Sub. I fix anything that needs fixing. Then I restart the rips with the fixes. I have it mostly automated.
I use SupRip to analyze them. I've been using this procedure of pre-ripping the subs with Clown_BD and analyzing them since I ripped my first BluRay over 6 yr ago. I've stuck with Clown_BD all those years and my entire BD rip collection is .m2ts. The problem with forced subs is that nearly all players do not recognize or process the forced flag. The nice thing about Clown_BD is that it will mux the forced sub file first in line so if you use a player like the WD Live-SMP that has a remote button for cycling through the subtitles, you only have to press it once at the start of the movie to turn on the forced subs.

Clown_BD will detect 2 of the 3 types of forced subtitles. One just has to be alert to the possible presence of type-3 forced subs -- they are usually not too hard to identify.

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post #9367 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
I use SupRip to analyze them. I've been using this procedure of pre-ripping the subs with Clown_BD and analyzing them since I ripped my first BluRay over 6 yr ago. I've stuck with Clown_BD all those years and my entire BD rip collection is .m2ts. The problem with forced subs is that nearly all players do not recognize or process the forced flag. The nice thing about Clown_BD is that it will mux the forced sub file first in line so if you use a player like the WD Live-SMP that has a remote button for cycling through the subtitles, you only have to press it once at the start of the movie to turn on the forced subs.

Clown_BD will detect 2 of the 3 types of forced subtitles. One just has to be alert to the possible presence of type-3 forced subs -- they are usually not too hard to identify.

I can push a button since all English subs I encoded. I don't want to push the button. Once the movie starts I don't want to have to interact with any control. Sort of like going to the movies. What type does it not detect? I have about 20 that I've got identified as separate forced track and testing some of them has shown ClownBD has not detected it so I assume the separate variety is the 3rd.


-B
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post #9368 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbusse View Post
I can push a button since all English subs I encoded. I don't want to push the button. Once the movie starts I don't want to have to interact with any control. Sort of like going to the movies. What type does it not detect? I have about 20 that I've got identified as separate forced track and testing some of them has shown ClownBD has not detected it so I assume the separate variety is the 3rd.
Whether or not you need to "push a button" depends entirely on the capabilities of your player not the way you rip them. As I stated before, most media players do not automatically handle forced subs in rips which is why so much is written on how to handle them. If auto-playback is your goal, look to find a player that will handle forced subs -- I don't know of any standalone players that do; I believe some of the PC-based players will.

There are 3 types of forced subs:
  1. embedded, flagged -- a single subtitle file that contains normal subs and forced subs. The forced subs are flagged so the BD player knows to display them during playback.
  2. discrete, flagged -- a separate subtitle file containing only forced subs that is flagged so the BD player knows to turn them on during playback.
  3. discrete, programmed -- a separate subtitle file containing only forced subs whose playback is java controlled. They are not flagged.

Clown-BD will detect/process type 1 & 2.
For type 1 it will extract the forced subs into a separate sub file and append "_forced" to the stream. When it remuxes the streams it will mux the forced stream at the top of the queue followed by the full subtitle track.

For type 2 it will simply duplicate the discrete forced subtitle track, appending "_forced" to it as before. When it remuxes the streams it will mux the "_forced" stream at the top followed by the full subtitle track followed by the original discrete forced subtitle stream. This will actually give you 3 subtitle streams when there should be only 2. You can eliminate the 3rd stream (the original discrete forced subtitle stream) by editing the Clown_BD batch file. It is an involved process that is not really worth it for the little space the track takes up. It's something only anal people do.

Type 3 are discrete, forced but not flagged. They are displayed under program control that only licensed player with java can handle. Since they are not flagged, Clown_BD can't identify them. You can usually identify them yourself -- when you demux all the subtitle streams with Clown and see a very small subtitle stream that Clown has not identified as a forced sub track, it is a good bet it is a type 3 forced. Inspecting the text of the track (I use SupRip) will tell you for sure.

Rips with forced subtitles take some work. There is no automatic way of handling them because your player doesn't handle them. For somebody looking to get into this and having a large number of disks to rip, it can be a pain knowing you have to attend them 1 by 1. For those with established libraries who only rip a couple disks a month -- no big deal.
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post #9369 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Whether or not you need to "push a button" depends entirely on the capabilities of your player not the way you rip them. As I stated before, most media players do not automatically handle forced subs in rips which is why so much is written on how to handle them. If auto-playback is your goal, look to find a player that will handle forced subs -- I don't know of any standalone players that do; I believe some of the PC-based players will.


There are 3 types of forced subs:
  1. embedded, flagged -- a single subtitle file that contains normal subs and forced subs. The forced subs are flagged so the BD player knows to display them during playback.
  2. discrete, flagged -- a separate subtitle file containing only forced subs that is flagged so the BD player knows to turn them on during playback.
  3. discrete, programmed -- a separate subtitle file containing only forced subs whose playback is java controlled. They are not flagged.
Clown-BD will detect/process type 1 & 2.
For type 1 it will extract the forced subs into a separate sub file and append "_forced" to the stream. When it remuxes the streams it will mux the forced stream at the top of the queue followed by the full subtitle track.

For type 2 it will simply duplicate the discrete forced subtitle track, appending "_forced" to it as before. When it remuxes the streams it will mux the "_forced" stream at the top followed by the full subtitle track followed by the original discrete forced subtitle stream. This will actually give you 3 subtitle streams when there should be only 2. You can eliminate the 3rd stream (the original discrete forced subtitle stream) by editing the Clown_BD batch file. It is an involved process that is not really worth it for the little space the track takes up. It's something only anal people do.

Type 3 are discrete, forced but not flagged. They are displayed under program control that only licensed player with java can handle. Since they are not flagged, Clown_BD can't identify them. You can usually identify them yourself -- when you demux all the subtitle streams with Clown and see a very small subtitle stream that Clown has not identified as a forced sub track, it is a good bet it is a type 3 forced. Inspecting the text of the track (I use SupRip) will tell you for sure.

Rips with forced subtitles take some work. There is no automatic way of handling them because your player doesn't handle them. For somebody looking to get into this and having a large number of disks to rip, it can be a pain knowing you have to attend them 1 by 1. For those with established libraries who only rip a couple disks a month -- no big deal.

Thanks for the explanation. So far I have discovered that if I use MKV I can take any sub track and make it forced and it will display on playback with no input from me. I'm using the VTEN for playback. I can cycle through sub tracks with a button as a short term fix. MakeMKV and the tool kit seem much better equipped than anything else to handle this work flow. I have to weigh scrapping Clown and Anydvd for Makemkv where I do not have to spend as much time fiddling. I lose playback options as I mentioned by going with MKV so not exactly any kind of win for the final product I'm looking for.


-B
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post #9370 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bbusse View Post
You are correct. Problem is, it doesn't output a M2TS file from a M2TS, only MKV which means another mix back to MT2S. With all that mixing I might as well re-rip and start again. Just need to figure out how many "finished" files I have that have a forced sub that isn't really going to show up. Not much fun anymore.


-B
Why .mt2s?
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post #9371 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 05:28 PM
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Why .mt2s?
I have a device that locks up with MKV, but I my have to just go with MKV like it or not because the sub problem with MT2S is not worth the time to fiddle. I have no desire to spend that much time teasing out some sub titles.


-B
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post #9372 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Whether or not you need to "push a button" depends entirely on the capabilities of your player not the way you rip them. As I stated before, most media players do not automatically handle forced subs in rips which is why so much is written on how to handle them. If auto-playback is your goal, look to find a player that will handle forced subs -- I don't know of any standalone players that do; I believe some of the PC-based players will.

There are 3 types of forced subs:
  1. embedded, flagged -- a single subtitle file that contains normal subs and forced subs. The forced subs are flagged so the BD player knows to display them during playback.
  2. discrete, flagged -- a separate subtitle file containing only forced subs that is flagged so the BD player knows to turn them on during playback.
  3. discrete, programmed -- a separate subtitle file containing only forced subs whose playback is java controlled. They are not flagged.

Clown-BD will detect/process type 1 & 2.
For type 1 it will extract the forced subs into a separate sub file and append "_forced" to the stream. When it remuxes the streams it will mux the forced stream at the top of the queue followed by the full subtitle track.

For type 2 it will simply duplicate the discrete forced subtitle track, appending "_forced" to it as before. When it remuxes the streams it will mux the "_forced" stream at the top followed by the full subtitle track followed by the original discrete forced subtitle stream. This will actually give you 3 subtitle streams when there should be only 2. You can eliminate the 3rd stream (the original discrete forced subtitle stream) by editing the Clown_BD batch file. It is an involved process that is not really worth it for the little space the track takes up. It's something only anal people do.

Type 3 are discrete, forced but not flagged. They are displayed under program control that only licensed player with java can handle. Since they are not flagged, Clown_BD can't identify them. You can usually identify them yourself -- when you demux all the subtitle streams with Clown and see a very small subtitle stream that Clown has not identified as a forced sub track, it is a good bet it is a type 3 forced. Inspecting the text of the track (I use SupRip) will tell you for sure.

Rips with forced subtitles take some work. There is no automatic way of handling them because your player doesn't handle them. For somebody looking to get into this and having a large number of disks to rip, it can be a pain knowing you have to attend them 1 by 1. For those with established libraries who only rip a couple disks a month -- no big deal.

Wow.. you are like the Yoda of subs!
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post #9373 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bbusse View Post
Thanks for the explanation. So far I have discovered that if I use MKV I can take any sub track and make it forced and it will display on playback with no input from me. I'm using the VTEN for playback. I can cycle through sub tracks with a button as a short term fix. MakeMKV and the tool kit seem much better equipped than anything else to handle this work flow. I have to weigh scrapping Clown and Anydvd for Makemkv where I do not have to spend as much time fiddling. I lose playback options as I mentioned by going with MKV so not exactly any kind of win for the final product I'm looking for.


-B
So your playback device properly handles MKV forced subs. That's great. Does it handle forced subs in m2ts? (I'm not sure that's even possible.) If not then you have no choice but to use MKV if you want a foolproof playback system.
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post #9374 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 07:12 PM
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if I use MKV I can take any sub track and make it forced and it will display on playback with no input from me. I'm using the VTEN for playback.
Nice to know the VTEN honors the forced flag in MKV.

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post #9375 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 08:57 PM
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So your playback device properly handles MKV forced subs. That's great. Does it handle forced subs in m2ts? (I'm not sure that's even possible.) If not then you have no choice but to use MKV if you want a foolproof playback system.

Seems the answer is no. From what I'm finding today it they are not hard coded they are not displaying so those movies I am re-ripping to MKV to start with and may leave them like that.

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Nice to know the VTEN honors the forced flag in MKV.

Yes so far things are going okay with re-ripping to MKV and then using the toolbox to pick a sub to mark as forced. Sometimes I can find it easily and sometimes I need to try a couple different ones. The best method right now is playing the MT2S and going through the tracks and seeing which one is doing what then jot that down to use on the redo.


I may try to convert the MKV to MT2S as an experiment to see if they will force that way, but probably I will just transition any new rips to MKV and be done with it. To redo later is just easier if I find a wrong track.


-B
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post #9376 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 10:22 PM
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Been ripping for a couple of years now using Makemkv. Some DVD's, some Blu Rays, and both TV shows and Movies. The only problem I had ever encountered was a couple of TV shows that had all the episodes on a disk as one large file. No problem, found MKVToolNix with helped me split them. Now, I just purchased the Hunger Games 4 movie BD set from Amazon, and when I went to rip the 3rd movie to my NAS (started there since I had already seen the first 2) about 50 main titles come up, all with the same size. There doesn't seem like an easy way to see what the right file is, and my question is should I be using something else other than MakeMKV for movies like this, and will I come across this problem more and more with new movies?

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post #9377 of 10088 Old 03-25-2016, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
You can usually identify them yourself -- when you demux all the subtitle streams with Clown and see a very small subtitle stream that Clown has not identified as a forced sub track, it is a good bet it is a type 3 forced. Inspecting the text of the track (I use SupRip) will tell you for sure.
Alternatively use BDtoAVCHD to scan bitrates which will usually indentify forced subs.

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post #9378 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 06:51 AM
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Now, I just purchased the Hunger Games 4 movie BD set from Amazon, and when I went to rip the 3rd movie to my NAS (started there since I had already seen the first 2) about 50 main titles come up, all with the same size.
I see several Hunger Games threads in the MakeMKV support forum: http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewforum.php?f=8. You would have to scan them to see if your case is covered. A problem is that different versions of the discs have different playlist setups, so you see conflicting reports.

The author is working on better playlist support and has asked for user reports on problem discs. I'm not seeing that thread at the moment...

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post #9379 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 07:58 AM
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Alternatively use BDtoAVCHD to scan bitrates which will usually indentify forced subs.
Really? How?

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post #9380 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 08:14 AM
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I have a question I was hoping someone could answer. I've been using Handbrake for the last few months. I consistently use the same setting which are mostly the default setting. I use high profile, my original BD's are ripped as MKV and I continue to have Handbrake make them MKV. The RF default is 20 but I set it to 18. For the most part, my files end up at about half the size they were, although there are times when they actually only decrease by 1/3 or even 1/4. My question is for my rip of the BD Highlander. It starts out at 22,000,300, and after I use Handbrake with the normal settings, it actually increases in size to 22,000,400. Any idea what's going on?

Movies with lots of grain and/or noise will cause this behavior. You could always use a denoiser and then have your player add noise during playback if this concerns you. You can also lower deblocking to 0, 0 as a simpler fix.

Using the grain tune setting will actually increase, not decrease file size as you are telling the encoder to keep as much noise as possible.

Contrary to popular belief, action scenes actually compress better than static ones due to psy settings. You can drop more bits during action sequences due to natural blurring when things are in motion.
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post #9381 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 09:05 AM
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Has anyone had problems ripping Interstellar with MakeMKV?

I've been trying to use the backup function in MakeMKV to rip the full disk to HDD and I keep getting corruption errors and eventual failure when it tried to rip the main title. I'm using MakeMKV 1.9.9 with no other resident decrypter and the disk is from the 3-disk BD+DVD retail set. I can't see any obvious defects on the disk.

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post #9382 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 09:13 AM
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Has anyone had problems ripping Interstellar with MakeMKV?

I've been trying to use the backup function in MakeMKV to rip the full disk to HDD and I keep getting corruption errors and eventual failure when it tried to rip the main title. I'm using MakeMKV 1.9.9 with no other resident decrypter and the disk is from the 3-disk BD+DVD retail set. I can't see any obvious defects on the disk.
Some people had problems: http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewto...t=interstellar

I did it but don't remember if there were issues. There was a spate of titles a while back with disc access errors. Doing a raw encrypted copy of the disc to hard drive and then opening that with MakeMKV was a workaround.

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post #9383 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
Some people had problems: http://www.makemkv.com/forum2/viewto...t=interstellar

I did it but don't remember if there were issues. There was a spate of titles a while back with disc access errors. Doing a raw encrypted copy of the disc to hard drive and then opening that with MakeMKV was a workaround.

-Bill
Thanks. While the issue they discussed was not what I was seeing, it got me to think. I have a pair of LG WH16NS40 burners in my main PC that have never failed to rip a BD since I installed them -- so I never suspected a drive issue. After the link from your post I put the Interstellar disk in the older LG WH10LS30 burner in my Media-PC/server -- MakeMKV ripped the full disk to HDD without missing a beat.

Glad I kept that drive.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #9384 of 10088 Old 03-26-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Really? How?
By clicking "scan bitrates"? If you want to know how it's done technically, I guess it's a check for filesize which seems to work pretty reliably.

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post #9385 of 10088 Old 03-27-2016, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Has anyone had problems ripping Interstellar with MakeMKV?



I've been trying to use the backup function in MakeMKV to rip the full disk to HDD and I keep getting corruption errors and eventual failure when it tried to rip the main title. I'm using MakeMKV 1.9.9 with no other resident decrypter and the disk is from the 3-disk BD+DVD retail set. I can't see any obvious defects on the disk.

I had no problems with it, but I did use mkvmerge.
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post #9386 of 10088 Old 03-27-2016, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Has anyone had problems ripping Interstellar with MakeMKV?

I've been trying to use the backup function in MakeMKV to rip the full disk to HDD and I keep getting corruption errors and eventual failure when it tried to rip the main title. I'm using MakeMKV 1.9.9 with no other resident decrypter and the disk is from the 3-disk BD+DVD retail set. I can't see any obvious defects on the disk.
I didn't have an issue. But I also run Any DVD HD in the background when using MakeMKV.

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post #9387 of 10088 Old 03-27-2016, 08:42 AM
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I used to use the MKV Toolkit (Maybe I don't remember it's name exactly) to flag forced subtitles as forced subtitles.

Then, I started it letting it go... whenever I sense that subtitles are missing I look and usually just choose the second english sub track (since I encode all english sub tracks by default.)

I've been pleasantly surprised by several movies lately that seem to have figured it out automatically. I think Mad Max Fury Road is an example but I don't remember ... just some of the movies I play have the forced subs in order and I did nothing to enable them.

(This using MakeMKV, Ripping all English Subs, and playing back with Jriver.)
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post #9388 of 10088 Old 03-27-2016, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Has anyone had problems ripping Interstellar with MakeMKV?

I've been trying to use the backup function in MakeMKV to rip the full disk to HDD and I keep getting corruption errors and eventual failure when it tried to rip the main title. I'm using MakeMKV 1.9.9 with no other resident decrypter and the disk is from the 3-disk BD+DVD retail set. I can't see any obvious defects on the disk.
I also didn't have any issue... and I've never used AnyDVD.

( I don't think I have that version tho... I don't remember if I bought it new or used but I think my copy is one disc or maybe 2)
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post #9389 of 10088 Old 03-27-2016, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DotJun View Post
I had no problems with it, but I did use mkvmerge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I didn't have an issue. But I also run Any DVD HD in the background when using MakeMKV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Hampton View Post
I also didn't have any issue... and I've never used AnyDVD.
Thanks for the replies, guys. As I noted above it was a burner hardware issue.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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post #9390 of 10088 Old 03-28-2016, 11:34 AM
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Recently decided to go thru the process of ripping my BD collection to .mkv. For the most part it went well.......using makemkv. Had initial issues with a few discs due to fake playlist but nothing a few minutes of research did not resolve............

That was until this weekend where I went to rip my new copy of the Hunger Games Complete collection from Amazon. WOW what a royal PITA....these things have 50+ playlists all with the same size........one disc.....forget which one makemkv listed over 150 playlists. Only Hunger Games #1 showed a primary title.......which ended up being incorrect so i just gave up. Research proved fruitless since all I could find was reference to Netflix versions and Redbox versions of the individual movie releases.

Unfortunately for me, I was late to this BD ripping game and do not have access to a older version of PowerDVD that lets me use Process Monitor to determine correct playlist.
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