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post #10171 of 11009 Old 12-08-2016, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by techflaws View Post
So what part of the TrueHD track (which is the only audio stream in my MKVs) does the WDTV play back?
My AVR is not ATMOS capable but is TrueHD, etc. capable.

  • In the .m2ts containing a single Atmos/TrueHD/AC3 track, the Live-SMP bitstreams TrueHD to my AVR. The Live-SMP picks the highest quality the AVR can handle and the AC3 track is not available to me from the Live-SMP.
  • In the MKV containing a single Atmos/TrueHD track, the Live-SMP bitstreams TrueHD to my AVR. Again, the highest quality my AVR can handle.
  • In the MKV containing both an Atmos/TrueHD track and a separate AC3 track, the Live-SMP picks the highest quality the AVR can handle and bitstreams the TrueHD track to my AVR. Since AC3 is a separate track, a press of the audio button on the Live-SMP toggles between TrueHD and AC3.

So, as been established, if you want Atmos/TrueHD/AC3 contained in a a single track -- use .m2ts. If you want Atmos/TrueHD and AC3 in separate tracks -- MKV will do that.

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post #10172 of 11009 Old 12-08-2016, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
So, as been established, if you want Atmos/TrueHD/AC3 contained in a a single track -- use .m2ts. If you want Atmos/TrueHD and AC3 in separate tracks -- MKV will do that.
I hate to be critical but I would state this differently.

If you have devices that only support AC3 you have two choices:
If you use M2TS you can store both Atmos/TrueHD and AC3 in the same track. Allowing backwards compatibility.
If you use MKV you must store them in different tracks. Possibly causing you to press a button to pick the audio.
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post #10173 of 11009 Old 12-08-2016, 12:42 PM
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"If you use M2TS you can store both Atmos/TrueHD and AC3 in the same track. Allowing backwards compatibility.'

You still have to pick the audio codec you want during playback just like if using an MKV format.

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post #10174 of 11009 Old 12-08-2016, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post
"If you use M2TS you can store both Atmos/TrueHD and AC3 in the same track. Allowing backwards compatibility.'

You still have to pick the audio codec you want during playback just like if using an MKV format.
Could you provide an example? All my devices that don't support TrueHD play the AC3 track correctly without intervention. My devices that support TrueHD, yes I have to switch streams to AC3, but why would I do that?

The whole point of the interweaved AC3 data was for backward compatibility to devices that didn't support the lossless stream. The Blu-Ray specification requires it to be present and accessed without user intervention.
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post #10175 of 11009 Old 12-08-2016, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
Could you provide an example? All my devices that don't support TrueHD play the AC3 track correctly without intervention. My devices that support TrueHD, yes I have to switch streams to AC3, but why would I do that?

The whole point of the interweaved AC3 data was for backward compatibility to devices that didn't support the lossless stream. The Blu-Ray specification requires it to be present and accessed without user intervention.
I guess our point is using MKV is the same because you can get just the formats you want, and select either of them. I don't know how using MKV looses backwards compatibility. My PC can't play the Atmos track, so I always rip the 5.1 along with the 7.1 so I can play it from the same MKV file. I see no advantage of M2TS over MKV.
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post #10176 of 11009 Old 12-09-2016, 06:37 AM
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"All my devices that don't support TrueHD play the AC3 track correctly "

Apples and oranges.

If there's more than one audio codec that a playback device supports if the file format supports multiple audio tracks regardless of the file format for the archived video you still have to select with audio track you want to listen to.

If your playback device only supports one of the two audio codecs it doesn't "see" the non-supported codec in the first place.

Nothing about MKV or M2TS is any different in terms of how they perform during playback with multiple audio tracks. They aren't the controlling factor assuming multiple audio codecs are present and the playback device can see those codecs.

If you are connected to your PC with HDMI the PC in general has nothing to do with playing the Atmos track.

If you are connected via optical, coax, etc., you won't get HD audio no matter what. That includes Atmos. Although one of the streaming services, can't remember which, is doing a sorta Atmos thing with a DD+ audio. I'm not sure if that'll work with non-HDMI connections since its DD+. Would be surprised but it might.

If you want Atmos playback from your PC you need to be connected HDMI to a receiver that can do Atmos and using playback software that allows the pass through. Most do, like the free Media Player from DVDFab.

There's no reason a PC won't send the audio track that has Atmos to your receiver intact if it can.

Either way mkv or m2ts is not the issue.

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post #10177 of 11009 Old 12-09-2016, 08:42 AM
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There really is a difference in PQ when using the higher settings for x264 for the same given file size, but it will break gpu decoding which means you would need a decently fast CPU to decode.

Using a 10 vs 8 bit encoder will also net you better pq as far as solid colors go, as in far less banding, which in turn allows you to compress the file even more for the same given pq.

X265 should not look better than x264 unless one or both of these is true:
1) super low bitrates
2) super high (uhd) resolution

Having two streams, thd and ac3 is no more messy than having them as a single stream because most all players will default to playing the stream they are capable of playing without any intervention from the user. I'm mainly speaking of software players as I don't run hardware types though I don't see why they wouldn't have this function as well.

Finally, there is such a thing as bitrate saturation.
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post #10178 of 11009 Old 12-12-2016, 09:12 AM
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Some "housekeeping" first: I appreciated members explaining to me what very practical reasons they have for compressing. I had been too much "assuming" and it was very enlightening.

I am looking for advice on how to ramp up and (finally) process ALL of my 300 BD titles for use on a server I just built that sits next to me empty. I have ripped most of them to 1:1 ISO with RedFox and now want to strip everything out leaving the main movie, lossless audio and subs if any. I have Clown_BD and all of the tools, but it has been a few years since I worked with them. To ease myself along the learning curve and re-familiarize myself with the tools slowly I am thinking that I should triage my titles into 1) those with no playlist obfuscation and no subs, 2) those with obfuscation and no subs and then 3) those with subs.

Can anyone comment on this? If a title is not on the subtitles spreadsheet, it has no subs? Is there a category of subtitled movies that Clown_BD will properly process with the check of a box?

Jeff

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post #10179 of 11009 Old 12-12-2016, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Some "housekeeping" first: I appreciated members explaining to me what very practical reasons they have for compressing. I had been too much "assuming" and it was very enlightening.

I am looking for advice on how to ramp up and (finally) process ALL of my 300 BD titles for use on a server I just built that sits next to me empty. I have ripped most of them to 1:1 ISO with RedFox and now want to strip everything out leaving the main movie, lossless audio and subs if any. I have Clown_BD and all of the tools, but it has been a few years since I worked with them. To ease myself along the learning curve and re-familiarize myself with the tools slowly I am thinking that I should triage my titles into 1) those with no playlist obfuscation and no subs, 2) those with obfuscation and no subs and then 3) those with subs.

Can anyone comment on this? If a title is not on the subtitles spreadsheet, it has no subs? Is there a category of subtitled movies that Clown_BD will properly process with the check of a box?

Jeff
My experience has been that the subtitles spreadsheet has an answer for me maybe 85-90% of the time, and the rest of the time I need to do my own detective work to determine if subs are needed/where they are. I've added subtitle info for a few blu-rays to the database, although I've been too lazy to add a bunch of movies as "verified no subs".

I'm not familiar with Clown_BD, but you might want to be prepared to occasionally extract and examine subtitle tracks to look for the signs of forced non-english dialog.
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post #10180 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Some "housekeeping" first: I appreciated members explaining to me what very practical reasons they have for compressing. I had been too much "assuming" and it was very enlightening.

I am looking for advice on how to ramp up and (finally) process ALL of my 300 BD titles for use on a server I just built that sits next to me empty. I have ripped most of them to 1:1 ISO with RedFox and now want to strip everything out leaving the main movie, lossless audio and subs if any. I have Clown_BD and all of the tools, but it has been a few years since I worked with them. To ease myself along the learning curve and re-familiarize myself with the tools slowly I am thinking that I should triage my titles into 1) those with no playlist obfuscation and no subs, 2) those with obfuscation and no subs and then 3) those with subs.

Can anyone comment on this? If a title is not on the subtitles spreadsheet, it has no subs? Is there a category of subtitled movies that Clown_BD will properly process with the check of a box?

Jeff


Subtitles at least english and possible english pgs are just worth putting on regardless. On a ~50min tv episode like game of thrones, it adds an extra 20-30MB to the final movie. Just burn them and be done with it regardless. Kodi handles the subtitles correctly for burned in subs without needing to set anything else up.

I use MakeMKV and its a breeze to setup a default preference so it selects lossless audio, english (and pgs) subs without any intervention. The only thing that cant be overcome is with multiple playlists. Those have to be handled themselves.
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post #10181 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 05:47 AM
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Just burn them and be done with it regardless. Kodi handles the subtitles correctly for burned in subs without needing to set anything else up.
All video players display burned in subs. When you burn in subs they become a permanent part of the video picture and can't be turned off.
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post #10182 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 05:58 AM
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Plex doesnt do it properly for mkvs at least not for me. Kodi works properly without any intervention. Tested on numerous episodes of game of thrones.
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post #10183 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Some "housekeeping" first: I appreciated members explaining to me what very practical reasons they have for compressing. I had been too much "assuming" and it was very enlightening.

I am looking for advice on how to ramp up and (finally) process ALL of my 300 BD titles for use on a server I just built that sits next to me empty. I have ripped most of them to 1:1 ISO with RedFox and now want to strip everything out leaving the main movie, lossless audio and subs if any. I have Clown_BD and all of the tools, but it has been a few years since I worked with them. To ease myself along the learning curve and re-familiarize myself with the tools slowly I am thinking that I should triage my titles into 1) those with no playlist obfuscation and no subs, 2) those with obfuscation and no subs and then 3) those with subs.

Can anyone comment on this? If a title is not on the subtitles spreadsheet, it has no subs? Is there a category of subtitled movies that Clown_BD will properly process with the check of a box?

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post
My experience has been that the subtitles spreadsheet has an answer for me maybe 85-90% of the time, and the rest of the time I need to do my own detective work to determine if subs are needed/where they are. I've added subtitle info for a few blu-rays to the database, although I've been too lazy to add a bunch of movies as "verified no subs".

I'm not familiar with Clown_BD, but you might want to be prepared to occasionally extract and examine subtitle tracks to look for the signs of forced non-english dialog.
This is the reason I built my ripper program. Can also run multiple copy's at the same time. No need to triage your files. It can handle 1, 2, and 3 all at the same time. It works with AnyDVD HD for playlist obfuscation. It will tell you about the types of subtitles and let you view them.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25w69pxf0...4l27pcrka?dl=0


Send a private message if you have any questions.
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post #10184 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
This is the reason I built my ripper program. Can also run multiple copy's at the same time. No need to triage your files. It can handle 1, 2, and 3 all at the same time. It works with AnyDVD HD for playlist obfuscation. It will tell you about the types of subtitles and let you view them.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25w69pxf0...4l27pcrka?dl=0

Send a private message if you have any questions.
I will give your program a try!

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post #10185 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 08:11 AM
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Plex doesnt do it properly for mkvs at least not for me.
Plex can't remove burned in subtitles. They are painted into the video permanently like the opening credits in a movie. If Plex can play the video any burned in subtitles will be there.

Last edited by Ken.F; 12-18-2016 at 08:11 AM.
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post #10186 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
This is the reason I built my ripper program. Can also run multiple copy's at the same time. No need to triage your files. It can handle 1, 2, and 3 all at the same time. It works with AnyDVD HD for playlist obfuscation. It will tell you about the types of subtitles and let you view them.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/25w69pxf0...4l27pcrka?dl=0

Send a private message if you have any questions.
For users who display 'scope movies on a 2.35:1 screen, don't all subs need to be moved into the picture area? Is there an automatic way to do that or is manual intervention required?

Jeff

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post #10187 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 08:26 AM
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Plex can't remove burned in subtitles. They are painted into the video permanently like the opening credits in a movie. If Plex can play the video any burned in subtitles will be there.

I made a 1 minute sample mkv clip for you with a burned in subtitle and put it on Mediafire. If you want to try it with Plex you can download it here:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/858oz8...vil_S01E01.mkv
ok so that makes sense. so the subs for my game of thrones must not be burned in. sucks but at least kodi can properly select the subs. Wish plex was smart enough.
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post #10188 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
For users who display 'scope movies on a 2.35:1 screen, don't all subs need to be moved into the picture area? Is there an automatic way to do that or is manual intervention required?

Jeff


I thought all Blu-Rays had subtitles on the screen unless someone re-mastered and moved them. Do you have an example movie I can look at?
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post #10189 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 09:17 AM
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I thought all Blu-Rays had subtitles on the screen unless someone re-mastered and moved them. Do you have an example movie I can look at?
Subs are displayed in the "live" area of the 16:9 frame as are the black bars that create Cinemascope image. When there are two lines of subtitle text, the second line is displayed on the bottom black bar. For those of us with 2.35:1 screens and who "push" the black bars off the top and bottom with the electronic vertical stretch function of our projectors and then return the image to its proper appearance by optically stretching it horizontally with a lens system that slides in front of the PJ, the second lines of subs are lost. Fortunately, my Oppo (and others?) have a setting that moves the subs up. Problem solved.

I am not familiar with a similar setting on media players such as Dune, Popcorn Hour, etc, so it has been my understanding that the subs must be moved when we use our tools to rip and strip our BD's. As I am about to start that task, I need to get this detail nailed down now.

As for an example, it would be any Cinemascope movie with subs that are on two lines.

Jeff

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post #10190 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 01:39 PM
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I've got a question on clownbd if anyone else has ran into this issue. I've saw while it was going remuxing the movie this message "The libav DTS decoder doesn't decode the full DTS-HD information" it doesn't pop up and show you this message it just shows it in the cmd prompt windows as it does it's conversion so you have to look for it. So after the movie is done I notice it now shows 6 audio channels instead of 8 (assuming this was a 7.1 dts master audio) I did some google research and found that libav can't do dts master audio so it just uses the dts core track instead.

My receiver is a pile of garbage and only tells me it's using DTS-MA or Dolby True and doesn't tell me 5.1 or 7.1 so I have no easy way to tell. Can anyone else shed some light on this for me? If this is the case I'll just rip full iso of bd disc that are 7.1 so I don't lose those extra 2 channels.

Thanks
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post #10191 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 02:42 PM
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I've got a question on clownbd if anyone else has ran into this issue. I've saw while it was going remuxing the movie this message "The libav DTS decoder doesn't decode the full DTS-HD information" it doesn't pop up and show you this message it just shows it in the cmd prompt windows as it does it's conversion so you have to look for it. So after the movie is done I notice it now shows 6 audio channels instead of 8 (assuming this was a 7.1 dts master audio) I did some google research and found that libav can't do dts master audio so it just uses the dts core track instead.

My receiver is a pile of garbage and only tells me it's using DTS-MA or Dolby True and doesn't tell me 5.1 or 7.1 so I have no easy way to tell. Can anyone else shed some light on this for me? If this is the case I'll just rip full iso of bd disc that are 7.1 so I don't lose those extra 2 channels.

Thanks
You should not have to decode DTS-HD MA if you aren't changing the track. Are you choosing an option that would change the DTS-HD MA track in some way?

You only demux and remux if you are doing movie only with the tracks of your choice. Eac3to, which demuxes in ClownBD, only decodes TrueHD that is multi pieced M2TS files. It will decode to PCM then recode back to TrueHD. All other formats are just demuxed unless you are converting something.
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post #10192 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 02:49 PM
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I am pulling the movie out and the audio tracks.
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post #10193 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
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As I observed in this post (which answers a lot of the questions) few BD titles have forced subs as separate files. Most are embedded in the main subtitle track. After demuxing, I independently inspect each subtitle file using SUPRIP which has an option to view only forced subtitles, if they exist. I have never ripped a title containing forced subs with Clown_BD in which it failed to extract or identify the forced sub track by creating a separate file with "forced" in the filename. Not all small subtitle files are forced sub files.
You had a really helpful post that I had bookmarked, and is now not available. (The above quote is from 2013 and I think they changed the numbering system.) Could you point to another post where you explain your process with subtitles, or maybe recap it again. They are driving me nuts trying to wrap my head around what I need to do, and I remember reading you post and having a light go on.

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post #10194 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 07:08 PM
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You had a really helpful post that I had bookmarked, and is now not available. (The above quote is from 2013 and I think they changed the numbering system.) Could you point to another post where you explain your process with subtitles, or maybe recap it again. They are driving me nuts trying to wrap my head around what I need to do, and I remember reading you post and having a light go on.
Yes, you were a part of that 2013 subtitle discussion. I believe the post you see is 3626. The links to old posts are all broken unless you have the posts/page setting set "right".

The issue of subtitles comes up regularly and repeatedly for years now, since there is no easy/automatic way to rip them. I have written my fair share on the topic in this thread, often repeating myself when it comes up again 5 months after the previous discussion. It's all there for the searching.

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post #10195 of 11009 Old 12-13-2016, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Yes, you were a part of that 2013 subtitle discussion. I believe the post you see is 3626. The links to old posts are all broken unless you have the posts/page setting set "right".

The issue of subtitles comes up regularly and repeatedly for years now, since there is no easy/automatic way to rip them. I have written my fair share on the topic in this thread, often repeating myself when it comes up again 5 months after the previous discussion. It's all there for the searching.
Yes, thanks, 3626 was the meaty post I had once bookmarked and now do so again. For good measure, I printed it to PDF and hard copy to use as a reference.

BTW, it's more like a 3 month period of recurrence. Maybe you should link it in your sig and save yourself some typing?

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"I like the future, I'm in it." F. Theater

Last edited by pepar; 12-14-2016 at 06:14 AM.
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post #10196 of 11009 Old 12-14-2016, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post
BTW, it's more like a 3 month period of recurrence. Maybe you should link it in your sig and save yourself some typing?
Links in this forum are generally useless because they don't always work unless your post/page setting matches that of the link originator. When they switched the software to Huddler then back, things got all messed up and never recovered.

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post #10197 of 11009 Old 12-14-2016, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Links in this forum are generally useless because they don't always work unless your post/page setting matches that of the link originator. When they switched the software to Huddler then back, things got all messed up and never recovered.
There is a "post" tag that uses just the final digits of the permalink and this does not suffer from the posts-per-page bug. I've been using it since things went wacky.

For example, to link to the post you just made, this:


[post=48962641]permalinks are broken[/post]


produces this:

permalinks are broken

If that stops working then I give up.

-Bill
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post #10198 of 11009 Old 12-14-2016, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Links in this forum are generally useless because they don't always work unless your post/page setting matches that of the link originator. When they switched the software to Huddler then back, things got all messed up and never recovered.
Seriously, for those of us who don't use the full BD rips, your explanation of the problems with getting subs correct, and your workaround to do so, is an excellent reference. It is something that should be readily available.

Not to create work for you, but turning it into a PDF document, uploading to a server and linking to it would be the way to get around shifting post numbering systems here. I would even suggest associating it with those the movies with subtitles spreadsheet.

Jeff

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post #10199 of 11009 Old 12-14-2016, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
There is a "post" tag that uses just the final digits of the permalink and this does not suffer from the posts-per-page bug. I've been using it since things went wacky.

For example, to link to the post you just made, this:


[post=48962641]permalinks are broken[/post]


produces this:

permalinks are broken

If that stops working then I give up.

-Bill
Thanks, I edited my post above with the link to "3626" to use your code.

Jeff

"The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." W. Gibson

"I like the future, I'm in it." F. Theater
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post #10200 of 11009 Old 12-14-2016, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post
Yes, you were a part of that 2013 subtitle discussion. I believe the post you see is 3626. The links to old posts are all broken unless you have the posts/page setting set "right".

The issue of subtitles comes up regularly and repeatedly for years now, since there is no easy/automatic way to rip them. I have written my fair share on the topic in this thread, often repeating myself when it comes up again 5 months after the previous discussion. It's all there for the searching.
Post 3626 is good but it only talks about 2 of the 3 types of subtitles.

There are 3 types of forced subtitle tracks.

1: Subtitles marked as forced along side normal subtitles in a single track. (Avatar)

2: Subtitles marked as forced in its own track. (The Avengers)

3: Subtitles in a track that are not marked as forced but are turned on by java. (Cars 2)

ClownBD can deal with both 1 and 2. ClownBD relies on eac3to.exe to find subtitles events marked as forced. With 1 it will extract the forced subtitle events and create a new track. With 2 it will just keep that track. But with 3 it will not detect this type due to no events being marked as forced.

Type 3 subtitles are easy to detect. These subtitle tracks will never be larger then 10Megs. My program is not fully automatic when dealing with forced subtitles but it does make it extremely easy to detect and rip all 3 types of subtitles.
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