Ripping Blu-Rays II - Page 352 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
Please support your claims with some sort of examples? Ask an owner of a Dune player that supports Blu-Ray menus if using Blu-Ray Ripper results in displaying forced subtitles.
I have re-ripped over 20 titles with forced subs in the last 3 weeks and all have played the forced titles correctly. If they were separate or java forced subs, I merged into a single track and all my Dunes (except Base 3D) play forced perfectly. Enabling fast sub switching on the Dunes enable a single button tap to switch between force and normal without having a menu come up.

I've paid for my sins. We're even!
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:31 AM
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I am gonna be smarter than both of you by the time you guys are done hashing it out.
I've actually become dumber. I keep trying to absorb it all but it is making my head spin....
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by blackssr View Post
I have re-ripped over 20 titles with forced subs in the last 3 weeks and all have played the forced titles correctly. If they were separate or java forced subs, I merged into a single track and all my Dunes (except Base 3D) play forced perfectly. Enabling fast sub switching on the Dunes enable a single button tap to switch between force and normal without having a menu come up.
list some titlesyou did. i want to give it a go!
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:46 AM
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I've actually become dumber. I keep trying to absorb it all but it is making my head spin....
For Sure. They are both out of my league. I spoke to Jason of the phone for about 2 hours a few weeks ago. He is very knowledgeable and was open to my suggestions on how to fine tune his program for Dune users. I tested on my Dunes as we went along. His program is a match made in heaven for the Dunes. It is like Clown_bd on steroids. The addition of the sub editor was brilliant. The finished ISO is much cleaner.

The last titles I did were:

Life of Pi 2D/3D
ID4 Resurgence 2D/3D
Captain America 2D/3D
Captain America Civil War 2D/3D
World War Z 2D/3D
Daddys Home
Gran Torino
Teenage Mutant Turtles 2D/3D


That's all I can remember for now. I'll will check my notes when I get home tonight.

I've paid for my sins. We're even!

Last edited by blackssr; 01-24-2017 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:08 AM
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What's the difference? The subs are displayed when I play the disc, without the user asking for them. That's what I call a forced track. That's what ClownBD calls a forced track.



Both questions are irrelevant to the question at hand, which is: does the Blu-ray format support forced tracks?



It does not take any Java code to do Type 3 subs. ClownBD can do Type 3 subs using MovieObject.bdmv only. The ripping tools I'm familiar with don't decode the BDMV files any more than they decode BD-J.



Yes, I get it, though I've avoided going into details here because it's irrelevant to the original question. A single subtitle track is sufficient to disprove the idea that the Blu-ray format does not support forced tracks.

But to address the multi-track situation. BDMV files support a program flow. The BDMV code (aka HDMV) can include logic like so:

if (selected audio track is #2) then turn on subtitle track #7
etc

Just like BD-J code can do.

I might dig up some discs one of these weekends and play with the ripping options again, like I did years ago, to learn more about BDMV. I've already learned a lot from this discussion, and I hope you (and others) have too.
I have not learned anything from this discussion that I didn't already know from 2008 accept you hold to your opinion well. Please use ClownBD to create a disc with 2 forced subtitle tracks. I don't even care which type 1, 2, or 3. How does ClownBD even know it has a Type 3 forced track to process? How does it know which track to mark as default? This is why your single track example holds no water. Calling something a forced track doesn't make it a forced track when dealing with the specifications. It's the default track a player should start with when no menus are authored or nothing in the player settings override it. Just get out the Excel list of movies with forced subtitles and feel free to inspect all the original discs with BDEdit.

I've tried to provide you with written and physical examples and actual readable research but you keep just saying "It's that way because a 3rd party non-licensed application does it that way"
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
I have not learned anything from this discussion that I didn't already know from 2008 accept you hold to your opinion well. Please use ClownBD to create a disc with 2 forced subtitle tracks. I don't even care which type 1, 2, or 3. How does ClownBD even know it has a Type 3 forced track to process? How does it know which track to mark as default? This is why your single track example holds no water. Calling something a forced track doesn't make it a forced track when dealing with the specifications. It's the default track a player should start with when no menus are authored or nothing in the player settings override it. Just get out the Excel list of movies with forced subtitles and feel free to inspect all the original discs with BDEdit.

I've tried to provide you with written and physical examples and actual readable research but you keep just saying "It's that way because a 3rd party non-licensed application does it that way"
I appreciate your attempts to educate me and I appreciate your work with Blu-ray Ripper. Clearly you know more about the spec than I do. I looked through the research material you linked, but the details of HDMV code are not in the public docs. Then I remembered libbluray, and reading the source code of that library taught me a little, but reading source code is a cumbersome way to learn.

I've pointed to ClownBD-generated ISOs because they are Blu-ray format and because they are simple. By the rules of logic a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove the claim that the format does not support forced tracks. If even one Blu-ray format ISO file has a single forced track, then that statement is false. What difference does it make if that one was created by a non-licensed application? What difference does it make if ClownBD cannot handle multiple forced tracks?

Perhaps the Blu-ray spec doesn't call Type 3 a "forced track"...but all the discussion in this forum about how to deal with "forced subtitles" includes Type 3. That the Blu-ray spec doesn't formally call them "forced tracks" is a matter of semantics. If the subs play without user intervention, that's a forced track, as far as ripping the disc is concerned.

Last edited by ScottJ; 01-24-2017 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottJ View Post
Perhaps the Blu-ray spec doesn't call Type 3 a "forced track"...but all the discussion in this forum about how to deal with "forced tracks" includes Type 3. That the Blu-ray spec doesn't formally call them "forced tracks" is a matter of semantics. If the subs play without user intervention, that's a forced track, as far as ripping the disc is concerned.
This is where I completely disagree with you. It’s about dealing with "forced events" not "default tracks" or as you say "forced tracks". When reading the below examples think about factory discs with multiple audio and subtitle tracks in many languages.

Type 1 (Normal and Forced events same track) - If the player detects the forced events in the track regardless if subtitles are on or off it will display these events. (Counter to your view: If the MovieObject.bdmv was authored to select and display these subtitles by default you would see all the subtitles not just the forced ones.)

Type 2 (Forced events only) - If the player detects the forced events in the track regardless if subtitles are on or off it will display these events. Something has to tell the player to use this track since it most likely will not be authored to be the default track in the MovieObject.bdmv. (Counter to your view: If you have more than 1 forced event track, setting a single track as default to display forced events will cause the other forced event tracks to be ignored unless a user manually switches tracks.)

Type 3 (Events that should be Forced but not marked) - Something has to tell the player to use this track since it most likely will not be authored to be the default track in the MovieObject.bdmv. (Counter to your view: If you have more than 1 forced event track, setting a single track as default to display forced events will cause the other forced event tracks to be ignored unless a user manually switches tracks.)
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonkennethrose View Post
This is where I completely disagree with you. It’s about dealing with "forced events" not "default tracks" or as you say "forced tracks". When reading the below examples think about factory discs with multiple audio and subtitle tracks in many languages.

Type 1 (Normal and Forced events same track) - If the player detects the forced events in the track regardless if subtitles are on or off it will display these events. (Counter to your view: If the MovieObject.bdmv was authored to select and display these subtitles by default you would see all the subtitles not just the forced ones.)

Type 2 (Forced events only) - If the player detects the forced events in the track regardless if subtitles are on or off it will display these events. Something has to tell the player to use this track since it most likely will not be authored to be the default track in the MovieObject.bdmv. (Counter to your view: If you have more than 1 forced event track, setting a single track as default to display forced events will cause the other forced event tracks to be ignored unless a user manually switches tracks.)

Type 3 (Events that should be Forced but not marked) - Something has to tell the player to use this track since it most likely will not be authored to be the default track in the MovieObject.bdmv. (Counter to your view: If you have more than 1 forced event track, setting a single track as default to display forced events will cause the other forced event tracks to be ignored unless a user manually switches tracks.)
Clearly I haven't explained my views very well because none of your "Counter to your view" statements are counter to my views. We've digressed quite a bit from the original question, which was: does the Blu-ray format support "forced subtitle tracks"? Here are the premises:

1. Any subtitle track that is displayed without user intervention when the disc is played is a "forced subtitle track" by definition.
2. There exist Blu-ray discs that play an entire subtitle track without user intervention.

By the rules of logic, I conclude that Blu-ray discs support forced subtitle tracks.

If you disagree, then you either disagree with the rules of logic or you disagree with one or more premises. It's still not clear to me which.

Is this entire discussion over the definition of "forced subtitle track"? Are you claiming that Gran Torino (the original disc) does not have any "forced track"?

I'm tired of this and I suspect you are too, so that's all I have to say about that.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:57 PM
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Clearly I haven't explained my views very well because none of your "Counter to your view" statements are counter to my views. We've digressed quite a bit from the original question, which was: does the Blu-ray format support "forced subtitle tracks"? Here are the premises:

1. Any subtitle track that is displayed without user intervention when the disc is played is a "forced subtitle track" by definition.
2. There exist Blu-ray discs that play an entire subtitle track without user intervention.

By the rules of logic, I conclude that Blu-ray discs support forced subtitle tracks.

If you disagree, then you either disagree with the rules of logic or you disagree with one or more premises. It's still not clear to me which.

Is this entire discussion over the definition of "forced subtitle track"? Are you claiming that Gran Torino (the original disc) does not have any "forced track"?

I'm tired of this and I suspect you are too, so that's all I have to say about that.
The whole time I have been tring to tell you that flagging the tracks in the MovieObject.bdmv to be selected when played is not for forced subtitle events. It can be used that way but in all my examples I tried to show you why it isn't used that way.

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1. Any subtitle track that is displayed without user intervention when the disc is played is a "forced subtitle track" by definition.
By whos definition? If using the default track flag in the MovieObject.bdmv then it's not. It's just the default subtitle track. Using your same logic, flagging an audio track in the MovieObject.bdmv makes it a forced audio track? No, it's just the default audio track.
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:09 PM
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ok, now i am feeling really dumb...
but keep the discussion going as I think I AM learning a few things. And yes, your tool is way better than clown bd once i get the hang of it..
blackssr, you still with us, or did your brain implode!? :-)
how's that new oppo thread coming along!
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:13 PM
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The whole time I have been tring to tell you that flagging the tracks in the MovieObject.bdmv to be selected when played is not for forced subtitle events. It can be used that way but in all my examples I tried to show you why it isn't used that way.



By whos definition? If using the default track flag in the MovieObject.bdmv then it's not. It's just the default subtitle track. Using your same logic, flagging an audio track in the MovieObject.bdmv makes it a forced audio track? No, it's just the default audio track.
ohhhhh, this helps. I really think I am beginning to grasp this ****..
thanks!
and yes, your tool is 'da bomb for what it does..
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:21 PM
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ok, now i am feeling really dumb...
but keep the discussion going as I think I AM learning a few things. And yes, your tool is way better than clown bd once i get the hang of it..
blackssr, you still with us, or did your brain implode!? :-)
how's that new oppo thread coming along!
At the Marina! Checking out my Duo 4K. Be home in a few hours.

I've paid for my sins. We're even!
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:23 PM
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At the Marina! Checking out my Duo 4K. Be home in a few hours.
the offer still stands. my basement for the boat...
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:29 PM
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the offer still stands. my basement for the boat...
How far did you get? Did you figure out the merge portion yet? That took me a few tries but after you get it. It is awesome. It is a very elegant solution if you want ripped ISOs with the cleanest subs.

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Old 01-24-2017, 05:38 PM
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How far did you get? Did you figure out the merge portion yet? That took me a few tries but after you get it. It is awesome. It is a very elegant solution if you want ripped ISOs with the cleanest subs.
damn it..no. I have not figured out the "merge" option. *****, back to reading...
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:11 PM
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Last post for SetStream I promise.

I pointed to Gran Torino because it has 4 Type 3 (Forced events but not flagged) subtitle tracks.
Tracks
Tracks 8, 9 ,10, 11 are normal full subtitle tracks.
Tracks 12, 13, 14, 15 are the corresponding tracks that have the forced events.
Subtitles
If you look at the MovieObject.bdmv in BDEdit.
BDEdit
There are no audio or subtitle tracks marked with the default flag. Basically no SetStream entries.

Playing this disc in a player that can read the MovieObject.bdmv would not result in seeing the correct forced subtitles events for each language. You would need a player that supports full Blu-Ray menus.

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Old 01-24-2017, 07:18 PM
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I recently switched to Pavtube DVDAid and really like it (was using 1-Click). It will rip Lord of the Rings in under 20 minutes to MP4. Granted, I'm only using 720x480 because I can deal with that (faster and smaller). Then I copy a bunch to micro-SD and put in my pad or laptop. Run them using VLC.
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:42 PM
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There are no audio or subtitle tracks marked with the default flag. Basically no SetStream entries.

Playing this disc in a player that can read the MovieObject.bdmv would not result in seeing the correct forced subtitles events for each language. You would need a player that supports full Blu-Ray menus.
So in other words, here's an example of a Blu-ray disc that has forced subtitle tracks.

But as you've explained, Blu-ray does not support forced tracks.

I don't disagree with any of your technical explanations of the Blu-ray format. But your argument about what constitutes a "forced track" makes no sense. This morning, my ClownBD example was not a "forced track" at all, only a default track. Nevermind that it makes no practical difference to the observer. Nevermind that you are redefining "forced track" to mean something different than the years of forced subtitle discussions here have been talking about. Here you've given an example of a disc that does not have default tracks, yet it has forced tracks. You are undermining your own argument. Wait, let me guess -- you're going to explain how these are not forced tracks, and they are not default tracks, they are some third thing indistinguishable from forced tracks yet definitely not forced tracks.

And why do you keep changing the subject to players that do not support full Blu-ray menus? Of course those players have their own way of dealing with forced tracks. Why is such a player relevant at all to the question of whether the Blu-ray format supports forced tracks?

Your knowledge of Blu-ray is extensive, I'm sure, but your communication skills are poor. Misdirections, irrelevancies, and an unstated but thoroughly confusing pedantic definition of "forced track" that is useless for the purpose of ripping Blu-ray discs.

If I'd known that your definition of "forced track" was so twisted and useless, there would have been no need for all this back and forth. You couldn't have told me that from the beginning and saved us both all the trouble?

I had five glasses of wine with dinner. I'm really done this time. Enjoy your fantasy world with no forced tracks.
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Old 01-25-2017, 04:39 AM
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Am making more popcorn ...

"The future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed." W. Gibson

"I like the future, I'm in it." F. Theater
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Old 01-25-2017, 06:59 AM
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So in other words, here's an example of a Blu-ray disc that has forced subtitle tracks.

But as you've explained, Blu-ray does not support forced tracks.

I don't disagree with any of your technical explanations of the Blu-ray format. But your argument about what constitutes a "forced track" makes no sense. This morning, my ClownBD example was not a "forced track" at all, only a default track. Nevermind that it makes no practical difference to the observer. Nevermind that you are redefining "forced track" to mean something different than the years of forced subtitle discussions here have been talking about. Here you've given an example of a disc that does not have default tracks, yet it has forced tracks. You are undermining your own argument. Wait, let me guess -- you're going to explain how these are not forced tracks, and they are not default tracks, they are some third thing indistinguishable from forced tracks yet definitely not forced tracks.

And why do you keep changing the subject to players that do not support full Blu-ray menus? Of course those players have their own way of dealing with forced tracks. Why is such a player relevant at all to the question of whether the Blu-ray format supports forced tracks?

Your knowledge of Blu-ray is extensive, I'm sure, but your communication skills are poor. Misdirections, irrelevancies, and an unstated but thoroughly confusing pedantic definition of "forced track" that is useless for the purpose of ripping Blu-ray discs.

If I'd known that your definition of "forced track" was so twisted and useless, there would have been no need for all this back and forth. You couldn't have told me that from the beginning and saved us both all the trouble?

I had five glasses of wine with dinner. I'm really done this time. Enjoy your fantasy world with no forced tracks.
I have never used the term "forced tracks". You are the one that keeps insisting that there is some magical "forced tracks". Just because the Blu-Ray specifications let you set a "default track" doesn't define it as a "forced track" because you say so. I gave you an example that requires playing forced events that are not marked in the stream and has no "default tracks" set. I guess you never really read my posts so I am just wasting my time. You have not once shown me where these famous "forced tracks" are defined or used by a studio authored disc to play forced events. You gave me an example of a 3rd party unlicensed application that can set the "default track" flag in the MovieObject.bdmv and you are the one redefining it to be a "forced track".

You are the one that said this:

Quote:
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This is untrue. A full BD player will not play forced events in a track unless the BDMV code has instructed it to do so.
I tried to help you understand the errors of your statement but now you just insult me. Show me the BDMV code in Gran Torino thats directs the player to play the correct forced subtitle events based on your magical "forced tracks".
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Old 01-25-2017, 07:44 AM
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Am making more popcorn ...
Round 2... The gloves are coming off. It is like Ali and Frazier all over again. No one else chimed in, so I guess we are too stupid to argue our point dealing with the topic of subs. Either way, I thank both members for their insight and contributions on this topic.

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Old 01-25-2017, 07:51 AM
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Round 2... The gloves are coming off. It is like Ali and Frazier all over again. No one else chimed in, so I guess we are too stupid to argue our point dealing with the topic of subs. Either way, I thank both members for their insight and contributions on this topic.
In spite of how much I initially learned, there's no new information to take in. I am not knowledgeable enough to to parse the "discussion" and point to either one as wrong. And maybe neither is; it might be incorrect assumptions and/or semantics at the root of the disagreement.

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Old 01-25-2017, 08:11 AM
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In spite of how much I initially learned, there's no new information to take in.
It's a very niche discussion with little to no applicability to people using file-based media players that do not process BD menu information.

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Old 01-25-2017, 08:17 AM
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I wonder how many of the "Millennial" members know what "Ali verses Frazier" is all about... Maybe I should have referenced "Kanye verses Swift" for them.
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Old 01-25-2017, 10:11 AM
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In spite of how much I initially learned, there's no new information to take in. I am not knowledgeable enough to to parse the "discussion" and point to either one as wrong. And maybe neither is; it might be incorrect assumptions and/or semantics at the root of the disagreement.
What is your definition of "forced subtitle track"?

Asking for a friend.
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Old 01-25-2017, 10:11 AM
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Maybe I should have referenced "Kanye verses Swift" for them.
Who is that???
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Old 01-25-2017, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by blackssr View Post
I wonder how many of the "Millennial" members know what "Ali verses Frazier" is all about... Maybe I should have referenced "Kanye verses Swift" for them.
LMFAO

Bill
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Old 01-25-2017, 10:48 AM
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What is your definition of "forced subtitle track"?

Asking for a friend.
I love to stir the pot.. I have a list of infractions to prove it... but I am staying out of this one! I need you both. You and Jason both added to my Dune experience. Thanks again.

I've paid for my sins. We're even!

Last edited by blackssr; 01-25-2017 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:09 AM
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What is your definition of "forced subtitle track"?

Asking for a friend.
In my mind, that would be subtitles that appear on my display without me doing anything more than hitting play in my Oppo or PCH.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by blackssr View Post
I wonder how many of the "Millennial" members know what "Ali verses Frazier" is all about... Maybe I should have referenced "Kanye verses Swift" for them.
For extra points, explain the reference "Kanye vs. Mike Myers."
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