Does any player support 10-bit h264 MKV files? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 10-10-2011, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Annoyingly, some people have started on some ridiculous 10-bit h264 video encode bandwagon which makes them impossible to play on my WD TV Live Plus. Is it correct in my understanding that currently no SoC on the market supports these 10-bit encodes? If so, then why in god's name are people using it to encode? There was nothing wrong with 8-bit encodes whatsoever. Instead breaking streamer support (not to mention any and all DXVA) seems to have been their only mindless goal.........

Anyways, anyone know of any upcoming streamers that will support this 10-bit crapfest?
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post #2 of 30 Old 10-10-2011, 04:16 PM
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Because most of the anime fansubbers are college kids who watch everything on their PC in their dorm room or their bedroom in their parent's house so they have no problem updating to some new crazy codec pack like CCCP to play all these new fangled formats. The same thing happened when header compression in MKV files became popular. I hope they stop using it because I watch a lot of anime and it would suck to not be able to watch them on my HDTV. I refuse to go back to being crouched before a PC monitor trying to watch a show or movie.

Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand.
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post #3 of 30 Old 10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
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By 'people' you mean the anime subbers? They have always done this and they don't care about your media player choice.

If I understand correctly, 10bit mainly benefits animation with CGI media in terms of quality and size so I can see why they would go with it.

You can always do your own encode right?
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post #4 of 30 Old 10-10-2011, 06:44 PM
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I really don't know why the damn anime fansubbers decided to go en masse to 10 bit encoding-the so called advantages-much less banding and smaller file sizes-are -for the most part-minimal at best. What they don't realize (or maybe they don't care-or maybe they just do it for ego gratification) is that a lot of anime watchers use a media player. This 10 bit bs has effectively rendered all current soc media players obsolete and there are no socs on the horizon that can-even the vaporware Sigma 8910 won't be able to do it either-I have a poor orphened PCH A210 because of it. So here's the bottom line-you're either gonna have to look for 8 bit encodes or else recode the 10 bit files yourself or suck it up and build or get an htpc. Fansubbers just delight in getting in the next shiny new Cadillac with gold plated trim that drives by. So there you have it.
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post #5 of 30 Old 10-10-2011, 09:46 PM
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Where can I get these so called these 10 bit encoding Anime files? I want to see what the fuss is about and if my media players can handle it...

edit update: I found some sample files on some forum threads discussing... I couldn't play it back on my brothers PCH-A200/A210 and my Nixeus Fusion HD... I forwarded the files to Nixeus for them to test to see if they can find a solution...

Cheers!

Cameron
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post #6 of 30 Old 10-11-2011, 04:06 AM
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The statement fan-subbers jump on any new technology is a little inaccurate at least in this case. Hi10P x264 profile has been around since about 2005 not really cutting edge. It just wasn't really popular until someone saw it helped anime image quality unlike on live action. :X The same thing happened when MKV came out. It was out for a long time and eventually everyone switched to it as it grew in support. There are 17 different profiles for x264 files. They just decided this one was better for anime cause of dithering.

As far as streamers go or w/e. I think your only option is going to be by going to flash player websites and stream it from there. There are a few sites that do HD streaming. Hopefully your companies will release some kind of software update or w/e if they can. I use an old PC with a blue tooth keyboard hooked to my tv from another room (I've gotten pretty good at snaking cables thru walls ^^) mainly because of issues like these.

P.S. BTW, they will probably be moving to this next nicknamed H.265 sometime in 2012. Hardware decoders aren't going to be able to keep up with stuff like this. If you really must have access to all media on the internet building a cheap Home Theater PC or using a decent old one is really the only thing that's going to guarantee this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Ef...y_Video_Coding

Quote:


HEVC aims to substantially improve coding efficiency compared to AVC High Profile, i.e. reduce bitrate requirements by half with comparable image quality, probably at the expense of increased computational complexity. Depending on the application requirements, HEVC should be able to trade off computational complexity, compression rate, robustness to errors and processing delay time.

HEVC is targeted at next-generation HDTV displays and content capture systems which feature progressive scanned frame rates and display resolutions from QVGA (320x240) up to 1080p and Ultra HDTV (7680x4320), as well as improved picture quality in terms of noise level, color gamut and dynamic range.[2][3]

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post #7 of 30 Old 10-11-2011, 08:08 AM
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Like the man says-no standalone soc based media player on the market today can play 10 bit encoded h.264 video. You can forward all the files you want but the end result will be the same. Just get yourself an htpc-you'll be happier in the end. BTW-there's a long thread on thsi subject over at Networked Media Tank.
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post #8 of 30 Old 10-12-2011, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post

Like the man says-no standalone soc based media player on the market today can play 10 bit encoded h.264 video. You can forward all the files you want but the end result will be the same. Just get yourself an htpc-you'll be happier in the end. BTW-there's a long thread on thsi subject over at Networked Media Tank.

Nixeus got back to me today... apparantly they are well aware of the 10 bit encoded H.264 Anime Video files - they told me they have been testing 10 bit encoded h.264 videos samples that the media player & anime community have been sending them for the past month. Their current Nixeus Fusion HD with the Sigma 8655 does not support 10 bit encoded video playback. But they confirmed their new Nixeus Fusion XS will playback 10bit Anime video files!

Anyhoot they uploaded a beta testing video to show that the Nixeus Fusion XS does indeed, playback 10 bit encoded h.264:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7dDLZtJbng

Do some of these anime files look familiar?

Cheers!

Cameron
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post #9 of 30 Old 10-13-2011, 06:06 AM
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That's good to see. At least someone is trying. They should really do more testing with higher ref frames though (16).

Does anyone know what kind of hardware the Fusion XS has under the hood?
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post #10 of 30 Old 10-13-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiga6360 View Post

That's good to see. At least someone is trying. They should really do more testing with higher ref frames though (16).

Does anyone know what kind of hardware the Fusion XS has under the hood?

Yup.. sent them some test files with that characteristic also

Fusion XS has the Marvell 88DE3010

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Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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post #11 of 30 Old 10-13-2011, 08:26 AM
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Boy-that's news to me-I was told by a couple of very authoritative people that no current system on chip designs have the horsepower to decode 10 bit files and there weren't any in the pipeline-Sigma, Realtek, etc. Too late for me though-already built a media computer-oh well. I did some research and found out it's running a Marvell 88DE3010. Took a look at the spec sheet for it and it's a pretty impressive soc. It has dual cores and looks to be quite powerful. The question that myself and most anime fans would probally like to know is how it will handle ass/ssa subtitles.
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post #12 of 30 Old 10-14-2011, 07:44 AM
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If anyone has any sample files I am happy to test them on various players.

I have access to players with the latest Realtek chips, 1185 and 1186.
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post #13 of 30 Old 10-14-2011, 08:39 AM
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Just google Hi10 anime and you can download tons of samples.
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post #14 of 30 Old 05-08-2012, 11:27 PM
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Anyone have an update on this? Have any current players added 10-bit compatibility over the past couple months?
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post #15 of 30 Old 05-20-2012, 05:49 AM
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I've been looking for a 10-bit player for a while too... but it doesn't look promising so far so I've been considering OpenElec/XBMC.

I've heard of Nixeus Fusion XS playing 10-bit (somewhere on this forum).

According to: wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Hi10P_playback (sorry, can't post links yet)

10-bit playback is coming. And I presume XBMC will take about as long as a SoC player to get changes made to support new "trends", but with the added benefit that you could perhaps keep your hardware for longer (since it'll be using a real GPU for hardware decoding). OpenElec 2.0 Beta 4 is supposed to have merged in 10-bit playback (but it's in the nightlies right now).

So I ordered a Zotac AD10 (for ~$240-$310 CAD) (See: http:// ncix.com/products/?sku=63939&vpn=ZBOXNANO-AD10-U&manufacture=Zotac) depending on what you get. I'm picking up the Plus because I don't have any spare SATA drives around and it was on sale such that by the time I picked up the RAM and a HD, it was cheaper this route.

But if you only pick up some very cheap RAM (e.g. $5 for OCZ 2GB) and use a USB flash drive, you can get it working as a network player for less than $250 (well in Canada -- not sure how much cheaper it is in the US).

Of course it's 2-3x the cost. I'll know if it's worth the cost/effort after I pick it up (and after the first year I suppose...)
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post #16 of 30 Old 05-20-2012, 06:54 PM
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Sorry to burst your bubble bubba-but these little boxes just don't have the horsepower to run 10 bit h.264 encodes-I almost got one of these but reading a few threads on it saved me-you just need more processing power than they have-best bet it to build a proper htpc like I did-then you have no worries.
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post #17 of 30 Old 05-20-2012, 08:37 PM
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Tis true. Do not avail thyself of thine Zotac boxes. They do not have the grunt to run 10-bit encodes. Thy must needs a grunty dual-core at the very least.
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post #18 of 30 Old 05-31-2012, 03:03 AM
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@zrdb, @Tiddles88

I'll keep you posted on it. I've been busy so haven't gone much past installing OpenElec and playing a few files.

I think it might be okay for Anime because anime decoding is already less effort to start with. At least the decoding is offloaded to the GPU. Seems to play what I have tested okay, but I'll test it w/ something a lot tougher later.

If anyone has any "very hard to decode" Hi10 Anime they want me to test, let me know. (It might take another week before I get back to you though... thanks for the patience.)
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post #19 of 30 Old 05-31-2012, 08:05 AM
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Okay, need a 3rd reply before posting links (that is in my next post). Sorry.
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post #20 of 30 Old 05-31-2012, 08:09 AM
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Okay, so I did some random tests using some Fate Zero 720p between 2 group's releases. One was 10-bit and the other 8-bit. (Eps 4)

(Zotac ZBOX AD10 AMD E-350 Fusion, 2GB RAM, OpenElec 2.0 beta 4)

8-bit:
  • CPU Usage: ~30%/core
  • Everything plays smoothly.

10-bit:
  • CPU Usage: ~60%/core
  • Things play mostly smoothly except:
    • It stutters somewhat while panning/zooming.
    • It skips frames during "high action" scenes

The 10-bit woahs are noticeable although subtle. Some people may be able to live w/ that though if they have more problems w/ colours being completely off.

I haven't got any 10-bit and 8-bit 1080p Anime sources at the moment so I haven't tested that.

I think the CPU readings may be deceptive in the 10-bit case because 1) it seems to "average" the CPU readings over a short period and 2) I believe XBMC is built using ffmpeg-mt (or maybe it was after that got merged to trunk, not sure...)

Also, as far as I've been able to determine, the thing to note is that 10-bit decoding mostly happens in software currently -- which is why you need hefty CPUs.

Out of curiosity, I wanted to know if 10-bit decoding was possible at the hardware level (sorry, I don't know much about the decoding pipeline right now).

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=164684
(Talks about IONs, but nothing definitive...)

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=106051&page=2

I'm not sure if that means that current hardware will ever get 10-bit decoding unfortunately.

So the verdict?

It's not a perfect solution. If you can afford more powerful CPUs, then you can have a perfect solution -- except maybe it'll cost you another $100 over this solution (so now you're at 7x the cost of a SoC solution).

So for now, if colour pisses you off in 10bit encodes (or that it just doesn't play), you can pick up an ION or FUSION APU box and put OpenElec (or something like that) on there at a premium. Eventually low-end CPUs will have enough grunt for the work, so at that point it will be a moot issue.

I don't know if that helps anyone.
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post #21 of 30 Old 06-01-2012, 11:05 PM
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You will probably need something like a dual core i3 CPU at a minimum for 10-bit software decoding. I know there's a Zotac that's close to $800 so I doubt anyone will jump on that. Maybe the next generation Fusion chips from AMD can finally be powerful enough to do in a small appliance like a Zotac Nano but no idea when that will be.

I doubt there will be ever be hardware support for 10-bit in the mainstream.
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post #22 of 30 Old 06-02-2012, 08:13 AM
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There are many free tools to transcode 10-bit to 8-bit available at videohelp dot com. You can do a batch conversion for a series overnight, then never worry about whether those files will play properly.
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post #23 of 30 Old 06-11-2012, 10:07 AM
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FWIW, the new Samsung Galaxy S III phone supports 10bit encoded Anime video files.

-Suntan
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post #24 of 30 Old 06-11-2012, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntan View Post

FWIW, the new Samsung Galaxy S III phone supports 10bit encoded Anime video files.
-Suntan

Source? Personal testing or seen on some site?

Does 'support' implies flawless playback or artifacted like what the Fusion XS plays?

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post #25 of 30 Old 06-11-2012, 07:17 PM
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I figured I try one of these Zotac boxes with XBMC to see if I can get some good 10bit playback and so far so good. If you watch mostly 720p videos, you might want to check it out. While not flawless, there is barely any hitch and noticeable frame drops except maybe on scenes with a lot of CG mixed in. Of course, it is not a cheap solution as it is currently retailing at about 400 smackers. It does have a tiny footprint, about the same as an Apple TV 2 but wider, and it comes with a decent remote.

Hardware: ZBOXNXS-AD11-PLUS-U Fusion E-450 CPU, with 2 GB RAM and 64GB mSATA SSD included.
Software: (XBMC) OpenELEC version 2.0 Beta Generic 32bit build

There is a review here of the hardware but not with 10bit encoded video
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Zotac-ZBOX-Nano-XS-AD11-Plus/
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post #26 of 30 Old 06-11-2012, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saiga6360 View Post

I figured I try one of these Zotac boxes with XBMC to see if I can get some good 10bit playback and so far so good. If you watch mostly 720p videos, you might want to check it out. While not flawless, there is barely any hitch and noticeable frame drops except maybe on scenes with a lot of CG mixed in. Of course, it is not a cheap solution as it is currently retailing at about 400 smackers. It does have a tiny footprint, about the same as an Apple TV 2 but wider, and it comes with a decent remote.
Hardware: ZBOXNXS-AD11-PLUS-U Fusion E-450 CPU, with 2 GB RAM and 64GB mSATA SSD included.
Software: (XBMC) OpenELEC version 2.0 Beta Generic 32bit build
There is a review here of the hardware but not with 10bit encoded video
http://hothardware.com/Reviews/Zotac-ZBOX-Nano-XS-AD11-Plus/

To get an idea of the player's HTPC capabilities: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5738/zotac-zbox-nano-xs-ad11-plus-redefining-the-small-form-factor-pc

For $400, if 10-bit 1080p playback is what is required (which means no GPU acceleration), you require a more powerful CPU (I would say even for 720p), and therefore, a custom build.

I wouldn't recommend the AD11 Nano XS for HTPC dutiles unless the scenario is just ordinary Blu-ray specifications compliant 1080p24 playback. Of course, thanks to its small form factor, it does have its advantages in other usage scenarios.

Ganesh T S
Sr. Editor, AnandTech Inc.
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post #27 of 30 Old 06-11-2012, 09:42 PM
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My use for this box is strictly as a media player appliance although I could find other uses for it. I was really going to just test it for 10bit playback and I am pleasantly surprised by its performance. I think the gains are mostly due to the software and for that I can only see it getting better.
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post #28 of 30 Old 06-12-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jakmal View Post

Source? Personal testing or seen on some site?
Does 'support' implies flawless playback or artifacted like what the Fusion XS plays?

It's a bit lengthy, as he goes over all the "hookup" options available with the phone. But if you're interested in the phone it is worth a watch.

He talks specifically about 10 bit anime about 2 minutes in. He shows it outputting the same video in 1080p to a TV at about 19:40.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46IiRyigUH0&feature=player_embedded

-Suntan
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post #29 of 30 Old 01-21-2013, 08:11 AM
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Med1000x3d and med600x3d media players support HI10P

test with several web anime samples 1920 x1080p

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1440149/mede8er-med600x3d-new-3d-version-to-2013/300
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Projector Mitsubishi HC5

Projector Optoma hd300x 

Av receiver Onkyo TX-NR 818

Oppo 103D

Media player Med1000x3D

 

 

KEN KREISEL DXD-808 

Q7000 5.1

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post #30 of 30 Old 08-25-2013, 02:10 PM
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Me too with my Lowly micca spec . forever cast out of the 10 bit fraternity ......It would be great to watch all that new anime on my widescreen but alas progress has left me behind. ok ok I'll just take 3 hours to do the recode and stop bitching .....sigh!
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