HiMedia HD900B Full 3D Media Streamer (Realtek 1186-based) - Page 39 - AVS Forum
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post #1141 of 1572 Old 02-21-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post


Since the VIP alters frame rates, I wonder how that is interacting with this, perhaps masking an issue with these players.

Have you tried direct playback of HoleySmoke 2D and SBS files from your players to your projector without the VIP in the system, to see if there is any 24p stuttering with that setup?

Which projector make and model is used?

Thanks for considering my question.

Where are these files for dl? I don't have any playback issues with my 900 so i can give the files a try, also how were the files made and with which program?
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post #1142 of 1572 Old 02-21-2012, 12:09 PM
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Just to let everybody here know in case this helps people figure out what's going on, I just learned of a new Micca firmware update. I just installed the new update and ran some tests with HokeySmoke's test files (thanks for making those HokeySmoke).

Bottom line - I still have the power on/off problem, and it still has the same exact stuttering issues, just as I stated above with the HiMedia firmware.

One good thing, with the newest Micca fimware, I can now play full 3D blu-ray ISOs at 720p@60fps, which at least allows me to play my ISOs smoothly without stuttering, since I seem to have no stuttering issues when playing at 1080p@60fps and 720p@60fps.


Take a look at my post on the Micca thread to see all my comments relating to the update, if anybody wants to see how it compares to the HiMedia firmware.

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post #1143 of 1572 Old 02-21-2012, 12:11 PM
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diablozoe, the files are posted on the previous page, post #1127 by HokeySmoke. HokeySmoke explains there how he made the files.

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post #1144 of 1572 Old 02-21-2012, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

Since the VIP alters frame rates, I wonder how that is interacting with this, perhaps masking an issue with these players.

Have you tried direct playback of HoleySmoke 2D and SBS files from your players to your projector without the VIP in the system, to see if there is any 24p stuttering with that setup?

Which projector make and model is used?

Thanks for considering my question.

I haven't bypassed the displayer for any test. I'm using the H5360 from acer and have tested with my optoma hd7100 going in through component using hdfury2. I'm using 1080P 24 hz setting on himedia and the iconbit
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post #1145 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

Along those lines, I made two test files yesterday. They are linked to here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?1ipofxrjnjzzmdo
Sorry about the ads - look for the "Download (8.92MB)" button. Feel free to mirror this to a better site if you like.

The files are moving bar test patterns along with a frame counter. The top bar moves at 32 pixels per frame, and each bar below moves at half of the speed of the one above it. I synthesized the pattern in AVISynth and encoded it using FFMPEG. Both files are Blu-ray compliant H.264 .m2ts files. They are both encoded at 23.976Hz (24/1.001). They play without stuttering on my Popcorn Hour A-110. They both stutter on the HD900A with 1.0.3.5 Beta from an NTFS hard drive connected through USB.

MotionBars_1080p23.976.m2ts is a 2D file.
MotionBarsSBS_1080p23.976.m2ts is a 3D side-by-side file. It does not have the 3D flag set so you will need to manually put the player into 3D mode.

These are 2-minute files. The stuttering should occur 2 times during the clip (every 42 seconds starting at a random time) You can set the title to loop using the "repeat" key to give you more time to see it.

Since both of these files have exactly the same stuttering, I have to assume that this problem is not isolated to 3D, but also affects 2D.

The monitor, in my opinion, does not matter, as long as it is faithful to the source. So, given that I can use a different media player and have no stuttering, that confirms that the monitor (in my case) is indeed irrelevant. Note also that active 3D monitors are required to be frame-locked to the source or you will lose phase to the eyes. So if you use an active 3D monitor, you should feel safe that any frame drops are not caused by it.

Here's easier access to the files user "HokeySmoke" provided.

This is an immediate download link for the test files (25MB)
http://st7.us/moving-h264-2files.zip


The purpose is to determine if a streaming player skips or adds frames. This problem would be observed by the bars momentarily stopping or jumping.

If the display system is working correctly without stutter, all bars move continuously, smoothly.

To determine if stuttering is present, you may need to hold your eyes open for more than 42 seconds.

According to a non-scientific survey out of 35 people that participated, more than half could not hold their eyes open for one minute. Link to survey: http://surveycentral.org/survey/3986.html

If you blink, you could miss the stutter.

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post #1146 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post


Here's easier access to the files user "HokeySmoke" provided.

This is an immediate download link for the test files (25MB)
http://st7.us/moving-h264-2files.zip

The purpose is to determine if a streaming player skips or adds frames. This problem would be observed by the bars momentarily stopping or jumping.

If the display system is working correctly without stutter, all bars move continuously, smoothly.

To determine if stuttering is present, you may need to hold your eyes open for more than 42 seconds.

According to a non-scientific survey out of 35 people that participated, more than half could not hold their eyes open for one minute. Link to survey: http://surveycentral.org/survey/3986.html

If you blink, you could miss the stutter.

Thanks for file location. Now if I play this on my HX929 with motion flow which does add frames will this affect the file?
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post #1147 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diablozoe View Post

Thanks for file location. Now if I play this on my HX929 with motion flow which does add frames will this affect the file?

Wow 960Hz.

It is possible that the more sophisticated monitors and processors may mask the problem so that frames dropped or added by a streaming player don't appear to an observer.

It is also possible that the stutter is below a particular person's threshold to observe such things, though another person may spot the stutter and find it uncomfortable, from the very same equipment.

If one type of players stutters, while others players don't stutter, from the same test file, I suspect that a user may be more inclined to use the players that doesn't stutter.

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post #1148 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

To determine if stuttering is present, you may need to hold your eyes open for more than 42 seconds.

According to a non-scientific survey out of 35 people that participated, more than half could not hold their eyes open for one minute. Link to survey: http://surveycentral.org/survey/3986.html

If you blink, you could miss the stutter.

You don't need to do anything special to observe the issue. Feel free to blink. The likelihood of missing the event due to blinking is close to zero. For this type of test pattern (which I have been using for years) I find it is much easier to observe frame rate problems if you're relaxed and sitting relatively far away from your display. Even de-focusing your eyes (adding blur which is helpful for your brain to see motion) can help. If I could add blur in AVISynth, I would.
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post #1149 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 10:13 AM
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For anyone who is interested, I've remastered all of my pertinent motion patterns to H.264 Blu-ray compliant files, and also made another side-by-side at 24.000Hz. Location is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?32z3d6j0z0patnm

There are a total of 7 files, 720p and 1080p. I have observed that the 1080p24.000Hz SBS file plays back in 3D without stuttering, so that is a good sign in that the HD900 is indeed capable of stutter-free frame-packed output.
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post #1150 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

You don't need to do anything special to observe the issue. Feel free to blink. The likelihood of missing the event due to blinking is close to zero. For this type of test pattern (which I have been using for years) I find it is much easier to observe frame rate problems if you're relaxed and sitting relatively far away from your display. Even de-focusing your eyes (adding blur which is helpful for your brain to see motion) can help. If I could add blur in AVISynth, I would.


Although it's correct and likely that the average person would see the stutter even while blinking, there is a non-zero chance they would miss the stutter that occurs for a fraction of a second, 42 seconds apart, without any ability to predict when the first stutter is coming.

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post #1151 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

For anyone who is interested, I've remastered all of my pertinent motion patterns to H.264 Blu-ray compliant files, and also made another side-by-side at 24.000Hz. Location is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?32z3d6j0z0patnm

There are a total of 7 files, 720p and 1080p. I have observed that the 1080p24.000Hz SBS file plays back in 3D without stuttering, so that is a good sign in that the HD900 is indeed capable of stutter-free frame-packed output.

How about AVCHD 2.0 compliant 1080p60-2D in 60p or 59.94p which the Himedia 900B is said to do correctly?

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post #1152 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

For anyone who is interested, I've remastered all of my pertinent motion patterns to H.264 Blu-ray compliant files, and also made another side-by-side at 24.000Hz. Location is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?32z3d6j0z0patnm

There are a total of 7 files, 720p and 1080p. I have observed that the 1080p24.000Hz SBS file plays back in 3D without stuttering, so that is a good sign in that the HD900 is indeed capable of stutter-free frame-packed output.

Thank you very much for making the files. Super job doing that.

I mirrored the seven files here at this instant link:
http://st7.us/MotionBarsH264.7z (26MB)

For those without 7zip, here is link to the same seven files for legacy unzipper built into windows:
http://st7.us/moving-h264-7files.zip (104MB)

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post #1153 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 11:34 AM
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Just played both 1080p m2ts test files on my 900a while using olly's hd900b.1.0.3.5.2012.02.12 firmware. Using the 1.4a HDMI cable that came with the box played on my Samsung UN46C7000WFXZA. USB external HDD. it was played off a seagate goflex with a green drive inside. No stuttering for me. Maybe the TV adjusted or something like was said before.
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post #1154 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

How about AVCHD 2.0 compliant 1080p60-2D in 60p or 59.94p which the Himedia 900B is said to do correctly?

I can certainly make them, but I'm not sure I have a player (other than maybe the HD900) that can play them back, so I may not be able to validate that they are mastered correctly. This falls outside of the Blu-ray spec, and I know that the Sigma chips, for instance, won't play these clips without lots of stuttering.

Does the PS3 or other modern Blu-ray players play these files without problems?
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post #1155 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

I can certainly make them, but I'm not sure I have a player (other than maybe the HD900) that can play them back, so I may not be able to validate that they are mastered correctly. This falls outside of the Blu-ray spec, and I know that the Sigma chips, for instance, won't play these clips without lots of stuttering.

Does the PS3 or other modern Blu-ray players play these files without problems?

Just to clarify - my main interest in AVCHD 2.0 is 1080i60-3D (interlaced 3D), which is the other new spec besides 1080p60. I know that the 1080i60-3D does not play on the PS3.

I have associates that like both the 2D and 3D parts of AVCHD 2.0, but my interest is 3D.

An earlier post within this HiMedia 900 thread mentioned that the 1080p60-2D camcorder files did play ok. This leads me to believe that the Realtek 1186 chips have sufficient bandwidth to do the 3D version 1080i60-3D, if they have a firmware update for it, since so far they play these 60i-3D files only in 2D.

Here is where both the 2D and 3D AVCHD 2.0 files are known to play correctly.

AVCHD 2.0 2D and 3D playback ok
  • Sony BluRay players BDP-S480 or S580 or S780, with some restrictions.
  • The Sony Camcorders on which the files are created that have HDMI out
  • Other brands of camcorders that I have not tabulated
  • A PC with appropriate player software

For AVCHD 2.0 players, there is the added issue that if they are connected to a monitor that doesn't support the applicable 60i-3D or 60p-2D rate, the player is supposed to down-convert the output signal to a frame rate that connected monitor can handle. For a poorly implemented player, this is another opportunity for shortcomings.

I didn't ask you about the 1080i60-3D since your test files don't include MVC (multi-view coding for both eyes) or actual moving-depth 3D subjects (yet). That would be a fantastic achievement, together with a 5.1 track identification in AC3.

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post #1156 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 12:51 PM
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Hello,

I just test also the 2 motionbars files and observe no stutters :
- Himedia 900A with beta 1.0.3.5 (not Ollyp)
- stream from NAS
- setup on 900A : hdmi auto and 24p ON
- TV : PS63C7700 hdmi 1.4a
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post #1157 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 02:29 PM
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HokeySmoke, have you done any further testing with stuttering? I have tried both of the 1080p@23.976 files and when played back at 24hz they both stutter at regular intervals. When I play the 1080p@24 files at 24hz there appears to be no stutter for me.

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post #1158 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

HokeySmoke, have you done any further testing with stuttering? I have tried both of the 1080p@23.976 files and when played back at 24hz they both stutter at regular intervals. When I play the 1080p@24 files at 24hz there appears to be no stutter for me.

Your findings are the same as mine. The only other test I've done is at 59.94Hz and 60Hz. 1080p60 plays back without stuttering, 1080p59.94 plays back with a frame dropped every 17 seconds (every 1000 frames to make up the difference between 59.94 and 60Hz). My display is frame locked so this is happening in the HD900.

So it seems that when the menu says "1080p 60Hz" it means 60.000Hz, and "1080p 24Hz" means 24.000Hz. It's too bad that the vast majority of content does not conform to either of these.

Here are all of the patterns including the new 60Hz and 59.94Hz ones.
http://www.mediafire.com/?w4dm4i2a99weoh4

Once again, anyone is free to use these (especially developers of media players).

Regarding some people not being able to see the frame drops on their displays, this is certainly confounded a bit by the frame rate conversion needed to get to 120Hz (3:2 pulldown) and it can possibly be corrected with a really smart motion estimation algorithm (motionflow, etc). I am using a native frame rate display, even in 3D. This makes it easy to see anything non-native.
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post #1159 of 1572 Old 02-22-2012, 10:58 PM
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So I guess my question should be, would all media players, say the Dunes for instance, also have the same frame dropping issues at these framerates, or do the Dunes intelligently handle the framerates differently so that there are no dropped frames?

In other words, do these 1186 players incorrectly handle these different framerates and that is why the frames are dropping, or is it unavoidable and every chip/media player will have the same issues? Somehow I doubt that, because if that was the case, how is my blu-ray player able to play 23.976 discs smoothly without dropping frames constantly? It must be an issue with these players that should be fixable then, correct?

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post #1160 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_2 View Post

So I guess my question should be, would all media players, say the Dunes for instance, also have the same frame dropping issues at these framerates, or do the Dunes intelligently handle the framerates differently so that there are no dropped frames?

In other words, do these 1186 players incorrectly handle these different framerates and that is why the frames are dropping, or is it unavoidable and every chip/media player will have the same issues? Somehow I doubt that, because if that was the case, how is my blu-ray player able to play 23.976 discs smoothly without dropping frames constantly? It must be an issue with these players that should be fixable then, correct?

My Popcorn Hour A-110, which has a Sigma Designs 8635, has video settings for 1080p60, 1080p59.94, 1080p24, and 1080p23.976. They all work correctly. It does not play back full 1080p 3D, however.
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post #1161 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 08:02 AM
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I'm still using the stock Firmware. For those who have upgraded to the beta, do you get any advantage, improvement of 3D menu playback? It is my understanding that there will be no upgrades to this feature and we will never have full menus with the 900B due to lack of a BluRay licensing for streaming content.

My game plan is to re-render all my Power Director Ultra 3D productions with menus back to Sony Vegas Pro iso renders with chapter stops embedded. Chapter stops at least allows one to sequence through a production in the 900B. While I use it for actual chapters in my longer productions, those not inclined to do advanced editing could use those process to dump all their raw clips to a Vegas timeline and add chapter stops to beginning of each clip which will at least allow you to sequence through the long iso file. Fast forward also works but chapter advance may be faster and more accurate. Better than nothing but not as good as having the menus we get in Power Director 10.


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post #1162 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, you want this latest customized firmware. Since the original stock firmware, several improvements have been added:
  • L/R eye-first swap in Menu for 'Rio', 'Drive Angry' & similar 3D titles
  • Subs now show up for 'Avatar' 3D, but full only subs, not just the forced for Na'vi parts (lack of support for forced subs affects all Realtek 1185 & 1186 players)
  • Ability to choose the playlist via BD lite option for titles like 'Cars 2' 3D and 'Toy Story' 3D, where the largest playlist isn't English (Spanish text/characters in 'Cars 2' for example)
  • YAMJ jukebox for content in local drives (USB, eSata); not an easy setup, but possible

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post #1163 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 09:16 AM
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Thanks for your reply and the link. The link clearly lists features like Greek, Portuguese, Danish, Polish Translations and other stuff that is of no interest to me. In addition, you describe ways to play copyrighted content that I also have no interest in doing.

I clearly asked whether any of these upgrades have been demonstrated to improve the 3D menu capability of 3D files. Obviously this was not listed in what this version offers. I create all my own content in Sony Vegas Pro and author my 3D menus in Power Director Ultra. I own all the copyrights to my work. It is these 3D productions I wish to play with full menus. So far only my Oppo BD-93 is capable of doing this but those days are numbered as I have been told by Oppo that they will have to pull the iso playback widget due to problems with licensing. So, I'm hoping for a firmware upgrade that is capable of dealing with the 3D menus.

All these listed custom firmware features are nice for those that need them but they offer nothing for me so I don't see the point in risking the install as the firmware author suggests until such time as the benefit ( for me) justifies the risk.

I will continue to follow along and thank everyone who is willing to pioneer further development.


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post #1164 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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The Oppo BDP-93 is it for menus w/3D titles; the HD900B won't show menus as Realtek (the chip manufacturer) doesn't have the necessary BD license.

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post #1165 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

My Popcorn Hour A-110, which has a Sigma Designs 8635, has video settings for 1080p60, 1080p59.94, 1080p24, and 1080p23.976. They all work correctly. It does not play back full 1080p 3D, however.

I believe this is why we are getting frame dropping with the HiMedia/Micca units. They need to enable support for 720p/1080p@23.976 and 720p/1080p@59.94 video modes.

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post #1166 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brajesh View Post

...Ability to choose the playlist via BD lite option for titles like 'Cars 2' 3D and 'Toy Story' 3D, where the largest playlist isn't English (Spanish text/characters in 'Cars 2' for example)

How do you do this? I have not been able to figure it out.
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post #1167 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 12:32 PM - Thread Starter
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In Setup, choose 'Ask when play' for BD (BDMV) mode. I'm at work & don't recall exactly where it is. Then, what happens when you choose any ISO to play is something like this pop-up appears...



Select BD Lite. Then, when movie plays, hit Menu and you'll see an option to choose other playlists. It's guesswork as there may be 4 playlists for the same movie & they'll be named something like 0001.mpls, 0002.mpls, etc.

The reason I use 'Ask when play' is so I can opt for 'Direct Play' with most 3D titles, and 'BD Lite' for 'Cars 2', 'Toy Story 3', 'IMAX: Grand Canyon', etc. where the longest/largest playlist isn't the English one or the main movie.

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post #1168 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brajesh View Post

The Oppo BDP-93 is it for menus w/3D titles; the HD900B won't show menus as Realtek (the chip manufacturer) doesn't have the necessary BD license.

True, but I have a question, if you know the answer. Considering that these 3rd party firmwares are being done outside the manufacturer's authorization anyway, why can't a firmware be developed that addresses the BD menus as they appear when playing a BD? I doubt these other firmwares are licensed and officially supported by the manufacturer, right?

In other words, as I understand this, what prevents other companies like OPPO from making an iso player that allows full BD feature set in the iso file is that their business relies on the Blu Ray license because the main function is to play the disks. Oppo has demonstrated ability to do it but are now being coerced to remove it to keep their license to play GBD. With HiMedia there is no dependency on the disk player license. So, the way I see it there shouldn't be a legal limitation. Then, is there a technical limitation that I don't understand?


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post #1169 of 1572 Old 02-23-2012, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

True, but I have a question, if you know the answer. Considering that these 3rd party firmwares are being done outside the manufacturer's authorization anyway, why can't a firmware be developed that addresses the BD menus as they appear when playing a BD? I doubt these other firmwares are licensed and officially supported by the manufacturer, right?

In other words, as I understand this, what prevents other companies like OPPO from making an iso player that allows full BD feature set in the iso file is that their business relies on the Blu Ray license because the main function is to play the disks. With HiMedia there is no dependency on the disk player license. So, the way I see it there shouldn't be a legal limitation. Then, is there a technical limitation that I don't understand?


The bluray menu system uses a communication language over the internet that requires a valid bluray license from the player to access.

It is possible to write a bluray menu that doesn't use the features set that doesn't requires internet updates, useful for self generated content. Realtek vendors could support a reduced instruction set without updates, but it would be of reduced value unless they actually copied the updates into their firmware, which may violate IP laws.

Don, has explained parts of this to others, and I know he understands this. Here is a link to the technical inner workings.

see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD-J

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post #1170 of 1572 Old 02-24-2012, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

The bluray menu system uses a communication language over the internet that requires a valid bluray license from the player to access.

That would imply you cant read the menus without an Internet connection which makes the ability of the earlier generation of non-Internet-enabled Blu-ray players to display the full-menus a big mystery.

From what I remember reading on the Oppo 93 forum, the full menus can only be viewed on a licensed player, regardless of whether the source is an official disk or if the encryption has been removed by ripping the disk to an ISO.

As far as the license status of HiMedia, they are NOT a BDA licensed company so any products they make will not be able to play/display the full menus.
The only reason HiMedia can make a player with a Blu-ray optical drive in it is because it cant play official disks because it cant decrypt them [as they officially state] so they dont need a license for it and them not needing/having a license allows them to do whatever they want for any of their other devices as well.

As far as people waiting for Sigma to come out with their chip so they can buy a Dune, remember that even if Sigma can overcome the technical hurdles in the way of getting that chip to support 3D at all, let alone ISO's, you would still have to buy the Sigma-chip-enabled player from a company like HiMEdia and it STILL wouldnt be able to play the full menus.
This is because any LICENSED company will NOT be allowed to sell a media player that can play 3D or any other kind of ISOs, exactly as what happened to the Oppo 93/95.
If they did, it would jeopardise their BDA license needed for the company's disk-enabled players.

Also, the prices talked about for the Dune line on demo at CES 2012 clearly showed them catering to the higher-end crowd so dont expect their media player to be cheap, even if it DOES play 3D ISO's.

Do what I did and buy a 93 while the ISO-removal firmware is still in beta as Oppo does not install beta firmwares on units they ship so you are guaranteed an ISO-enabled device regardless of where it is purchased.
I tested about 20+ 3D ISO's from an eSATA connected HD and it played everything I threw at it.
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