New Dune HD Sigma 8910 anticipation thread Q2 2012 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 409 Old 08-31-2012, 11:13 PM
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thats not a restriction of the Sigma chip but of popcorn, other wise the flagship Sigma chip would be a step back compared to older models.
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post #362 of 409 Old 08-31-2012, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by graham myers View Post

thats not a restriction of the Sigma chip but of popcorn, other wise the flagship Sigma chip would be a step back compared to older models.

The translation makes it sound like no full menu from sigma. Hard to tell when google translates stuff. Guess we will see if dune announces one and if they have full menus will tell us. this line here "but because as mentioned this ability probably will not be developing for Sigma Designs," makes it sound like sigma is not bringing it.
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post #363 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:07 AM
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....So looks like maybe no full menu support on the 8910 family. article can be found here. http://www.httv.co.il/article03914

I don't think so, look at the specs of SMP8910:
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=130
www.sigmadesigns.com/uploads/documents/selection_guide.pdf
”Target Markets

Premium Blu-ray players
Premium media players”.

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post #364 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wiatrak View Post

I don't think so, look at the specs of SMP8910:
http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=130
www.sigmadesigns.com/uploads/documents/selection_guide.pdf
”Target Markets
Premium Blu-ray players
Premium media players”.

Maybe that is the difference between the 8910 and 8911.

Also, I believe the chip itself might not h ave completely to do with full menu support, but whether or not the manufacturer pays for the license (so the chip could support)

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post #365 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 08:07 AM
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I believe the difference between the 8910 and 8911 is that macrovision is available in the former and not the latter.

But back to the important stuff - an aftermarket mod kit - a Hello Kitty bag to place over streamers. I'll put "HD" and "Hi Rez" stickers on a Limited Edition version, maybe offer a Reference series with crayon drawings on the bag by my kids. No doubt some audiophile or videophile mag will offer testimonials for dramatically improved performance with the bag in place, for the right quid pro quo. I'll also round the corners, get a patent on that, and prepare for a new life as a patent troll.

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post #366 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 11:11 AM
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just and update from passing werner in shoutbox on pch forum it was PCH decision to not bring full bd menu due to the bd stack not being stable and full bd menu means they also bring cinevia in.

on another note according to another source the 8911 is exclusive to pch until the end of the year.
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post #367 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 12:53 PM
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I dont really care where I spend my money. Dune, PCH, somebody else.
The 2 main things that will prevent me from buying a PCH product is (1) no BD menu support, (2) the non 17 inch wide typical CE form factor.
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post #368 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

I dont really care where I spend my money. Dune, PCH, somebody else.
The 2 main things that will prevent me from buying a PCH product is (1) no BD menu support, (2) the non 17 inch wide typical CE form factor.

You do realize full menu support pretty much just died, If full menu = cinivia i dont anyone will stick with it anymore. Rembmer even if your backups of bluray are legal cinivia could still say hey im not playing from a retail disc not allowed to play.
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post #369 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by halfelite View Post

You do realize full menu support pretty much just died, If full menu = cinivia i dont anyone will stick with it anymore. Rembmer even if your backups of bluray are legal cinivia could still say hey im not playing from a retail disc not allowed to play.

^ This. As long as Cinavia is viable and not cracked pretty much kiss full BR Menus (via BD license) gone with these players

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post #370 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:30 PM
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But, but, but. I thought Cinavia was completely harmless. That's what I was told on this forum by someone. Don't remember who, but he sure liked streaming.
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post #371 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:32 PM
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But, but, but. I thought Cinavia was completely harmless. That's what I was told on this forum by someone. Don't remember who, but he sure liked streaming.

It is only harmless for players that don't support CInavia. I believe any player now that gets a bd license (i.e. gets treated as a commercial BR player) will need to implement Cinavia. What this means, any ripped copy of a movie (doesn't matter the format) that has cinavia on it will not play on these dvices

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post #372 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

It is only harmless for players that don't support CInavia. I believe any player now that gets a bd license (i.e. gets treated as a commercial BR player) will need to implement Cinavia. What this means, any ripped copy of a movie (doesn't matter the format) that has cinavia on it will not play on these dvices

I know. It's a jab at streamerlover who keeps ridiculing anyone who dares suggest that Cinavia could pose any problem whatsoever for streaming devices.
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post #373 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by trondmm View Post

I know. It's a jab at streamerlover who keeps ridiculing anyone who dares suggest that Cinavia could pose any problem whatsoever for streaming devices.

Gotcha, figured you had a meaning behind that tongue.gif

I guess in theory it won't pose a problem for anyone since none of these media players would ever implement. The only users that lose out would be those who would want full BD support (who knows, maybe BD Lite will evolve to the point where it supports BR menus since it is possible already for movies that don't have I think java?)

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post #374 of 409 Old 09-01-2012, 08:15 PM
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There may be ways to get around Cinavia implementation in players of BD structures, but as of yet there's not enough known about how various players will handle it. IOW, there may be "loop holes" in how a player observes this protection, such as only implementing it when reading BD file structures. I'm not convinced that a BD license forces a player maker to observe Cinavia protection in media files, streamed content, etc. Cinavia protection is keyed (in BD players) by the absence of encryption. Media files aren't expected to be encrypted. That's not to say that a player's maker might not choose to implement it this way, or avoid the BD license altogether. It'll be some time before we know.

Point being that it's not a given that any player with a BD license will necessarily implement Cinavia protection in every situation, such as media files.
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post #375 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 12:19 AM
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well my updated blog of my visit to Dune yesterday is now up (http://myhtpcuk.wordpress.com)

basically they are only releasing 8672/3 based players over the next few months. The max 3d will be released later with the actual chip used under wraps. I'm not sure when the BASE3d will be available in the States but it should be the end of October for Europe.
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post #376 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 01:37 AM
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well my updated blog of my visit to Dune yesterday is now up (http://myhtpcuk.wordpress.com)

Ooh, so the HD Connect has a Micro SD slot? Excellent. If the price is reasonable, this could be a fun player.
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post #377 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 02:56 AM
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The price I was told would be 70 to 80 euros, usually just swap the currency symbol smile.gif
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post #378 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

There may be ways to get around Cinavia implementation in players of BD structures, but as of yet there's not enough known about how various players will handle it. IOW, there may be "loop holes" in how a player observes this protection, such as only implementing it when reading BD file structures. I'm not convinced that a BD license forces a player maker to observe Cinavia protection in media files, streamed content, etc. Cinavia protection is keyed (in BD players) by the absence of encryption. Media files aren't expected to be encrypted. That's not to say that a player's maker might not choose to implement it this way, or avoid the BD license altogether. It'll be some time before we know.
Point being that it's not a given that any player with a BD license will necessarily implement Cinavia protection in every situation, such as media files.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out. My understanding is that any player that has a BD License (which implies it can act as a commercial BD player) has to implement Cinavia (now I don't know who is running around checking for implementation). IMO though, it is not even worth wondering whether or not it will be implemented, just stick with players that you know wouldn't be subject to. It will be interesting though to get some comments from the Dune-HD folks since the Dune Max 3D could have a BR drive)

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post #379 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by graham myers View Post

well my updated blog of my visit to Dune yesterday is now up (http://myhtpcuk.wordpress.com)
basically they are only releasing 8672/3 based players over the next few months. The max 3d will be released later with the actual chip used under wraps. I'm not sure when the BASE3d will be available in the States but it should be the end of October for Europe.

I assume the max 3d will be using the 8911 chip? Supposedly PCH has exclusive use of this chip until year end, so it would make sense that Dune-HD isn't releasing the chip yet

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post #380 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 05:47 AM
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One other thing. Supposedly just recently Sigma removed all reference to blu rays players as being used with their chips. If so it would be very curious considering the Dune 3D Max advertises Blu Ray (and the chip is not being announced yet).

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post #381 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 06:03 AM
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Well there is an open source project by the VLC guys to make BD menus work under linux, long term that could be a way to get BD menu support back in while avoiding Cinavia. That's something Sigma or Dune should really throw some resources behind. Cinavia once present on a box scans the media that is playing it doesn't care how it gets to the player or what form it's in, for example on Samsung BD players when using the Plex app Cinavia will still work.

Anyway the new Dune's look nice, it's a shame they don't seem to be using XBMC which Sigma just announced for their chips (maybe they have a specific reason). A Dune running XBMC is a very tempting combination if it does pretty much everything the stock Dune firmware does media playback wise but with a better GUI & XBMC's media library.
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post #382 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 06:07 AM
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Well there is an open source project by the VLC guys to make BD menus work under linux, long term that could be a way to get BD menu support back in while avoiding Cinavia. That's something Sigma or Dune should really throw some resources behind. Cinavia once present on a box scans the media that is playing it doesn't care how it gets to the player or what form it's in, for example on Samsung BD players when using the Plex app Cinavia will still work.
Anyway the new Dune's look nice, it's a shame they don't seem to be using XBMC which Sigma just announced for their chips (maybe they have a specific reason). A Dune running XBMC is a very tempting combination if it does pretty much everything the stock Dune firmware does media playback wise but with a better GUI & XBMC's media library.

Yeah, I think we will eventually see full menu support. I forget what it is , but some BR movies you can get full menus without full BR support (maybe it is the jva or bd live that is causing the issue?)

As far as XBMC, I guess the question is, who is responsible for? Is this something that Dune-HD or others will leave up to the community/XBMC developers to handle?

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post #383 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 08:15 AM
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I know. It's a jab at streamerlover who keeps ridiculing anyone who dares suggest that Cinavia could pose any problem whatsoever for streaming devices.

Since Cinavia is encoded into the audio, that means that it is all the way down into the transport stream packets, and regardless of BD menu support or not, the most likely implementation I can see is after demuxing the audio and videdo, and detection occurs in the audio decoding portion of the hardware. This would mean that any content played back could trigger this type of protection. These devices likely do not have enough processing power to parse / decode / and recognize the Cinavia bits in Java, coded as part of the BD Java stack which handles menu/interactive services. It surely is impemented in hardware.

Now, OTOH since there is likely a royalty fee required to license and use Cinavia, this could be the reason that mere file playback type devices have not up until now triggered Cinavia imposed playback restrictions?

If we just had a copy of the Sigma SDK source code to inspect.... (that is up to date)
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post #384 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Since Cinavia is encoded into the audio, that means that it is all the way down into the transport stream packets, and regardless of BD menu support or not, the most likely implementation I can see is after demuxing the audio and videdo, and detection occurs in the audio decoding portion of the hardware. This would mean that any content played back could trigger this type of protection. These devices likely do not have enough processing power to parse / decode / and recognize the Cinavia bits in Java, coded as part of the BD Java stack which handles menu/interactive services. It surely is impemented in hardware.
Now, OTOH since there is likely a royalty fee required to license and use Cinavia, this could be the reason that mere file playback type devices have not up until now triggered Cinavia imposed playback restrictions?
If we just had a copy of the Sigma SDK source code to inspect.... (that is up to date)

Cinavia needs to be implemented on all devices that apply for a BD License, I think starting in early 2012. Have a player that does not use a BD License, no cinavia

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post #385 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 08:58 AM
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There's a lot of mis-information and mis-understanding about how Cinavia works. You can read up on it at Cinavia's own site.

The watermark in the audio is actually a small bit of digital code, which the playback device reads. That code is specific to the delivery mode of the original audio. A BD player reads that code and understands that this content is supposed to be on a BD disc with AACS encryption. If the encryption is absent (ripped movie), then the player triggers the protection. At present there are no other playback devices with Cinavia protection, although Cinavia would love to sell their scheme to other content providers too. I don't think there's actually any requirement for a BD player to enforce Cinavia on anything other than BD content, ie: BDMV folders or ISO. A player's maker may choose to enforce it on other formats, or they may not. So while the player might trigger Cinavia on a BDMV folder rip of a movie, it may neglect to enforce it on a M2TS file of the the same content, or a transcoded file in a different format, MKV, etc. By the same token, if there existed some content that was made for internet streaming which had Cinavia encoded, the same Cinavia-infected BD player might play it just fine since it doesn't contain the digital code for BD discs.

There are real limitations on what Cinavia can do, and a number of ways to get around it. But there's no reason to assume that every player with a BD license will treat it the same except with ISO and BDMV formats. If the BDA decides to muscle player makers with the threat of losing license, they could force players to observe the BD trigger on all content, but it doesn't appear that they have done this yet.
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post #386 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 09:08 AM
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There are real limitations on what Cinavia can do, and a number of ways to get around it. But there's no reason to assume that every player with a BD license will treat it the same except with ISO and BDMV formats. If the BDA decides to muscle player makers with the threat of losing license, they could force players to observe the BD trigger on all content, but it doesn't appear that they have done this yet.

Exactly, so why even take the chance. I think is the point. there is a reason why all these media players are avoiding BD licenses, a reason why PCH A-400 which is using the SMP8911 did not go the BD License route (they even acknowledge this is to avoid any potential Cinavia issues). Supposedly Sigma itself removed all referenced to BR players for its chips.

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post #387 of 409 Old 09-02-2012, 12:05 PM
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As far as XBMC, I guess the question is, who is responsible for? Is this something that Dune-HD or others will leave up to the community/XBMC developers to handle?
According to the original Sigma Designs press release, it is turnkey, meaning Sigma provides it in a ready-to-use form (at an additional charge, I suppose).

I would suspect it would be provided as an additional module to the SDK. But since it is under GPL, the source would need to be available, meaning manufacturers could tweak it, if they had the inclination. My observation, though, is that they rarely have the inclination.

I'm sure that the reason it isn't available yet is that they don't yet have it working.
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post #388 of 409 Old 09-10-2012, 03:07 AM
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http://www.homecinema-fr.com/IFA2012/Videos/13-HDI.mp4 (can't link it directly for display, so you will have to download it...)

small video made by the HCFR guys on the Dune booth during last IFA. Contains an extensive presentation of the Dune Connect and other new players, BASE 3D is said to be launched end october and Max 3D end december. The french part at the end is about the Dune Pro : confirmed as still not finalized and no launch date...
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post #389 of 409 Old 09-10-2012, 05:03 AM
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According to the original Sigma Designs press release, it is turnkey, meaning Sigma provides it in a ready-to-use form (at an additional charge, I suppose).
I would suspect it would be provided as an additional module to the SDK. But since it is under GPL, the source would need to be available, meaning manufacturers could tweak it, if they had the inclination. My observation, though, is that they rarely have the inclination.
I'm sure that the reason it isn't available yet is that they don't yet have it working.

Sigma apperantly demo'd xbmc last week.

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/sigma-designs-enters-xbmc-arena-with-3-d-soc-processor-nasdaq-sigm-1695233.htm

I dont know what this means for dune/PCH, will it basically allow users to load xbmc onto their dunes?

I am unfortunately planning to stop using my dune and move to full htpc/xbmc setup with tmt as an external player for blurays.

The only way I would possibly reconsider is a vxp enabled dune with fully working xbmc, along with hdi tweaks. XBmc internal player still is not where I would like it to be. No forced subtitle detection for mt2s files, seamless branch blurays have issues being fast forwarded, and 1080i vc-1 bbc blurays or files still wont play, so i use tmt as an external player with xbmc for blurays currently and i also get my menus. All things hdi could fix that do work on my prime, hdi's, a sharing of knowledge between the two would benefit each as xbmc weak areas are hdi's strong area's and vice versa,, but. Its a long shot though, so I will likely continue focusing going the htpc route by christmas.
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post #390 of 409 Old 09-10-2012, 05:14 AM
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HDI already confirmed that they won't use xbmc on their new range and will focus on opera...I think that PCH said almost the same (with NMJ instead of opera).
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