blu-ray menus - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 5 Old 02-22-2013, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I really want blu-ray menus in my streaming solution. I don't quite get the whole cinavia thing - everybody mentions it like it's common knowledge. I'm guessing some sort of licensing issue. Doesn't matter.

Can we list the ways that you can CURRENTLY support blu-ray menus? Streamers, htpcs, all solutions that will do blu-ray menus. I'll make a list and keep the first post updated.

  1. Dune Smart, Max, Duo, Base and Prime (NOT TV series)
  2. Popcorn Hour C-series (possibly A Series as well)
  3. Netgear NeoTV-550 (I've read lots of issues w/ this, but leaving it for now)
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post #2 of 5 Old 02-22-2013, 06:34 PM
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Hi El Gabito,

I can help with the streamers. The ones that support full Blu-Ray menus that I know of are:

1) The Dune series: Smart, Max, Duo, Base and Prime (not the TV series),
2) The Netgear NeoTV-550, and
3) The Popcorn-Hour C-series (some A-series as well, if you load C-series firmware).

I don't know of any others, but I haven't been watching as closely as I used to.

It is not clear the effect of Cinavia yet, but all new players need to implement Cinavia in order to qualify for a BDA license. Manufacturers that implemented full menus as part of their licensing need to either implement Cinavia in their new players, or drop the license. Dropping the license would mean dropping the menus in many cases. But the BDA can't prevent a manufacturer from using a reverse-engineered menu-system, although I believe that there is separate licensing required for BD-J (java) menus. As of yet, no one has released a reverse-engineered Blu-Ray menu system, although I've heard of two projects working on it.
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post #3 of 5 Old 02-22-2013, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gabito View Post

I don't quite get the whole cinavia thing - everybody mentions it like it's common knowledge. I'm guessing some sort of licensing issue. Doesn't matter.

Cinavia is restrictive DRM. From the DVD Fab site:
Quote:
This is the place where you can find all the relevant info on the new protection for audio-video called Cinavia. It is reported to be used for protection of movie from theaters and disc releases on DVD & Blu-ray. It consists of a multi-level watermark that is embedded in the audio track and, while being theoretically transparent (not-audible) for the listener, it is supposed to resist various transformations of the audio stream like re-compression, analog playback&record, re-sampling, pitch shift, etc. The base levels are analog, but on the top level there’s the watermark payload that contains some restrictions regarding the playback environment.

The protection has two elements (one cannot work without the other):
  1. The watermark embedded in audio-video content.
  2. Cinavia enabled player, that will refuse to play the content if it does not match the restrictions.

Examples:
  1. A movie copy made with a camcorder in a theater that contains Cinavia (THEATRICAL_NO_HOME_USE) watermark will stop playing within about 1 minute on a Playstation 3 and display a Message 1.
  2. An unprotected (no AACS) Blu-ray backup of “The Losers” (US release) will mute the audio after about 20 minutes with Message 3 (for not coming from a TRUSTED_SOURCE).
There is no crack; there is no work-around; there is no removal solution. DVD Fab first reported they were working on removal in 7/10. 2.5 yr later they have made no visible progress. From the tone of the forum and the way their moderators try to sweep it under the rug I would say they have given up. Their recommendations for handling Cinavia comprise trying to find a BD player that doesn't have it and/or buying a media player. All this tells me Cinavia is here to stay.

- kelson h

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post #4 of 5 Old 02-23-2013, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input guys.

So wil there be discs that come out in the future with cinavia that can't be streamed even on something listed above (dune/pch)?
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post #5 of 5 Old 02-23-2013, 09:21 AM
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Not the players above. Go to that link I provided and you will see a list of BD & DVD titles that have Cinavia (>90% are from Sony). As of 2/12, any new player with a BD license must support Cinavia as part of the license terms -- that includes not only hardware BD players but also PC player software. That link will also show you a partial list of BD players that support Cinavia (the list is incomplete, for example all the new Panasonic players should be on it). All those players will also stream video over DLNA -- all those players will cut the sound after 20 min from a Cinavia title on that list when you try to stream it.

Currently there is no media player with Cinavia and for players that only play files, Cinavia should not be a concern -- unless a law is passed. A BD license is not required to play files or support simple BD menus -- i.e. simple title menus you might create yourself with an authoring program. A BD license is required to support BD+ and possibly BD-Java menus. Bottom line is any new media player that wants to support the full BD menu experience so the rip plays exactly like it would with the disk in a BD player, will have to have a BD license, hence support Cinavia -- that will defeat the whole purpose of a media player. Who would knowingly buy one with Cinavia support.

So, I agree with the opinions of others that media players with full BD menu support will disappear. This may be the reason that Dune is still selling "old" hardware and not come out with a new player. Face it -- a Dune player without BD menus support would be a severely over-priced piece of kit.

- kelson h

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