DVDFab website blockked - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 29Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jsmiddleton4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 3,264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 24
"The world at large could care less what the US legislates in our boarders. "

True enough but the EU is very tight on this copy protection stuff. So it isn't JUST the U.S.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
jsmiddleton4 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:26 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

Do you have support to back this up, why is it a stretch? Are you assuming that more people are getting their hands on physical discs that they did not purchase than those who actually purchase/own the disc?

It is always easy to assume the worst-case criminal position. People would consider "rent-n-rip" to be human nature and readily agree with that assumption.

I have followed and participated in the DVD Fab forums for years and I have to tell you -- from reading the "DVD Copy" and "Blu-Ray Copy" threads, one gets the distinct impression that the majority of their user base is primarily interested in ripping pirate copies from disks they don't own and shrinking/burning them to single layer BD-R. There was virtually no discussion of ripping for whole-home servers and media players until it became clear that DVD Fab was stumped by Cinavia and wasn't even working on it any more. At that point, when people complained about when would DVD Fab conquer Cinavia, the moderators deflected the criticisms to first recommend users buy old BD players then to talk of ripping to hard disks and using media players.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #183 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jsmiddleton4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 3,264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 24
"Your display has to support HDCP"

I've never had a problem with this so I have not investigated it. My displays have always played what I toss at them.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
jsmiddleton4 is offline  
post #184 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jsmiddleton4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 3,264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 57 Post(s)
Liked: 24
"assume the worst-case criminal position"

So being honest about how this software is used is assuming the worse case criminal position?

All righty then....

Have a great day.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
jsmiddleton4 is offline  
post #185 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:34 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"Your display has to support HDCP"

I've never had a problem with this so I have not investigated it. My displays have always played what I toss at them.
That assertion is quite true. That was the whole purpose of HDCP being mandated in the HDMI spec. -- to prevent the transmission of unprotected HD video source as a digital stream. If the display is not HDCP compliant the HDMI interface can re-negotiate to have the source sent as SD or not received at all. This is a problem people frequently experince with PC displays that have a DVI interface and are not HDCP compliant.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #186 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
dbone1026's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 11,312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

It is always easy to assume the worst-case criminal position. People would consider "rent-n-rip" to be human nature and readily agree with that assumption.

I have followed and participated in the DVD Fab forums for years and I have to tell you -- from reading the "DVD Copy" and "Blu-Ray Copy" threads, one gets the distinct impression that the majority of their user base is primarily interested in ripping pirate copies from disks they don't own and shrinking/burning them to single layer BD-R. There was virtually no discussion of ripping for whole-home servers and media players until it became clear that DVD Fab was stumped by Cinavia and wasn't even working on it any more. At that point, when people complained about when would DVD Fab conquer Cinavia, the moderators deflected the criticisms to first recommend users buy old BD players then to talk of ripping to hard disks and using media players.

I never got into the whole rental thing (I gave up on Netflix a long time ago) so haven't really followed the whole rent-n-rip process, but it makes sense what you are saying. I typically see more people getting pirated versions off the web, so at that point there is no need for AnyDVD or DVDFab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"Your display has to support HDCP"

I've never had a problem with this so I have not investigated it. My displays have always played what I toss at them.

I have a blu ray player in my laptop which I bring to work on quiet days/holidays to show movies to the group. If I don't have AnyDVD running in the background the movie will not display on our tv (connected via HDMI). I don't know how common this is, but this is the one instance where I have run into issues (I rather just use the physical disc instead of having to copy over my ripped file from my server to the laptop)

Cheers,
Damian

MSS.net blog (contributing editor) -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Windows Entertainment and Connected Home MVP 2010-2012

dbone1026 is offline  
post #187 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"assume the worst-case criminal position"

So being honest about how this software is used is assuming the worse case criminal position?
You mis-interpret. I was not coming back at you.

My statement was just that it is always easy to suspect the worst case -- in this case, of people using the software to pirate rentals or other un-owned copies. Such activity is criminal, is it not?

I have years of participation in the DVD Fab forums where it is abundantly clear to me that most of the users posting are doing just that. Perhaps I'm incorrect and am jaded towards that view by my own predilection to assume the worst case -- In this case, I don't think so.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #188 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 08:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
It is easy to do a back-of-the-envelope calculation to show how hard it is to deny the economics of "rent-n-rip" piracy.

For a $200 initial investment one could buy a WD Live-SMP and a 3TB external HDD. You can store at least 100 BD titles (1:1 rips) on a 3TB HDD which you would rent from RedBox for $1.50 each. DVD Fab HD Decrypter is free; MakeMKV is free.

So for an initial $350 you could be all set up with 100 BD titles that would otherwise cost you $1500-2000 if you were to buy the disks.

Going forward, you can subtract the price of the player and extra 3TB externals can be had on sale for $100. So for $250 you can rent-n-rip another 100 BD (1:1) titles. Even if you had to eventually buy the decryption software, it is impossible to deny the economic allure of pirating to people with little money.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #189 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 09:18 AM
Advanced Member
 
Mr Eric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Paris/France
Posts: 882
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 33
so your idea is that "people with little money" would have bought 1500 to 4000$ of BR if they couldn't rip ? And that's why DVDFab is currently under the gun ? May be in reality they would have bought for 300$ of BR which is in fact what they spent for renting 200 discs (BTW, you can just rip 50 to 60 BR for a 3TB, not 100), so may be in fact nobody's losing money...

rolleyes.gif
Mr Eric is offline  
post #190 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 09:45 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Eric View Post

so your idea is that "people with little money" would have bought 1500 to 4000$ of BR if they couldn't rip ?
I never said or implied that. That, of course, is the position of the MPAA when they claim lost sales for damage assessment.
Quote:
BTW, you can just rip 50 to 60 BR for a 3TB, not 100)
Just ripping the main title only, not the full BD, I fit an average of 35 BD titles per 1TB.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #191 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 10:28 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 21,451
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked: 715
I currently have 1500+ BD ISOs, full rips. The average file size for all of those is around 31GB or 32GB.

39TB unRAID1--53TB unRAID2--36TB unRAID3

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme

aaronwt is online now  
post #192 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 12:29 PM
Newbie
 
ErnieBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

Not everybody makes a six digit income, or has extra money at the end of the month. After seeing that everyday expenses are paid

Kids are off to school clean and clothed, and Now paying for Obama Care. Yep they really like paying $15 to $30 for a BD, To a movie 

industry that wants to lease you the rite to use there product every time you wish to use in in a different media after already paying for it.

This so they can live in there little microcosm of a life. Haven't even watched the awards in 30 years, don't care don't give a dang!!!!

ErnieBob is offline  
post #193 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 01:08 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
^^ Your point?

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #194 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 03:05 PM
Newbie
 
ErnieBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10

I was basically agreeing with your earlier post of allure of pirating by people with little money.

Though It was fairly forthright . Pay once then watch in any form you want. Will the movie industry replace a worn out

disk ?  Will you get a credit for a failed stream? After all your just leasing rite? If you have money to throw away then

so be it. But I for one, when I pay for something I keep it. I don't see any movie Corporations filing for bankruptcy !

I suppose the FBI will get a court order and find my granddaughter watching a DVD copied from a purchased VHS of Honey I shrunk the Kids.

If they want to waste there money doing so let them. Money that could be put to use better some place else I believe.

They should concentrate on the real video pirates the one's copying to 720P for profit , and if I'm not mistaken I believe I read 

somewhere they have there own software? The little guy will always find away around the system, the system singles out

the little guy to make a point, because he is a easy rube, and it makes them look like there doing something. Don't mind me

I'm old, and cranky, and the years have taught me something people may not like to hear.

ErnieBob is offline  
post #195 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
agogley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by MishMouse View Post


Me a customer, has lost many movies due to VCR tapes degrading, or by kid damage. Wouldn't it be a good world if the movie industry offered a movie recovery service so that the only thing I would have to do it log onto ???.com and enter my code that proves I own the movie (pay a small fee $1 max) and to be able to have a digital download of that movie so I can watch it again? Wouldn't it also be nice if that movie lost zero quality?

Disney has a system whereby you register your video using their code. You can get the digital version for watching on your Ipad. In addition to the digital version, you can stream it from their website. They also offer disc replacement for registered movies for about $7 (I think).


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
agogley is offline  
post #196 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
agogley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Well piracy is an issue. Are media providers using it to justify a heavy handed approach? Sure. But to say piracy is not a primary issue simply is not true.

How do you prevent piracy but allow single users to make legitimate archive backups?

Any ability to make a copy means ANYONE can make a copy and then copies and more copies.

In other words piracy.

Tell me how you make an original so copies can be made by individual owners but prevent piracy off the one original and you might have a solution.

"The HDCP junk often forces users to buy products like AnydvdHD just to watch their lawfully purchased products"

Really? Name one movie that due to HDCP forces anyone to have to buy ANYDVD to watch said move. ANYDVD, which I'm thinking about buying by the way, as with DVDFab is not used in that fashion. They are used so we can watch our movies without using the disk or the disk player. Not to address some problem in the market that forces us to use them in order to watch our movies.

I agree that piracy is a major problem. However, to say that is the only goal of this encryption and other copyright shenanigans is just wrong. I would say that the encryption protocols don't seem to be really hampering piracy all that much.

If you have an HDCP-enabled source component, every active device that connects to that source must also be HDCP-enabled. That includes switchers, splitters, monitors, projectors, recorders, or anything else that could "Receive" the signal. If the "Transmitter" doesn't get the response it wants, it will refuse to transmit the signal. As you can guess, this can be a major problem if you have an older components.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

I agree with most of your post (piracy and IP theft is a huge problem) but HDCP is a nightmare. The HDMI cord you're using could cause HDCP to fail. Windows Media Center uses HDCP and I often get errors flipping between my HTPC and my Xbox because it doesn't establish the connection quickly enough.

Your display has to support HDCP for legit bluray software to play (using unlicensed freeware doesnt have this problem). Many monitors, older televisions w/ DVI, and probably some no name brand televisions don't support HDCP. Your PC software doesn't detect a secure connection, instead worried you're plugged into capture device, and throws errors and prevents you from playing a lawfully purchased disc with lawfully purchased software.

Somebody who knows what they are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"Your display has to support HDCP"

I've never had a problem with this so I have not investigated it. My displays have always played what I toss at them.

My display does not. I have a Dell 2405 which is a perfectly good LCD display. But Dell decided to stop supporting it and would not release firmware to make the display HDCP compliant. So guess what, I can't watch anything with HDCP DRM. So I bought my BD lawfully (or my digital download for that matter), play it on a legally purchased BD drive, on a legally made PC, using an HDCP compliant video card and DVI-D cable. And yet, because my monitor is a year too old, I can't play the video. Nice, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by techflaws View Post

And in a violation of net neutrality the providers will make Netflix and Co pay through the nose for it which they will shift on the consumer (who'll also max out their caps). Brave new world.

More likely is that satellite and cable providers will enter into contracts for streaming services. It will be exclusive, but you will not have bandwidth caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"Probably. Is it as big as the industry keeps whining on about?"

Define how big it has to be so that it is big enough to be an issue......

I wish it wasn't so. I wish the whole industry that is on one side encryptors and on the other decryptors did not need to exist. That is a pipe dream.

Until a process is in place that tries to prevent piracy but allows individual owners to make archives of their purchased products, what we see now is not going to change.

The idea that more folks than less folks use software like DVDFab to JUST make archives of purchased software is quite the stretch. DVDFab, ANYDVD, the others, are most certainly being used to make pirated copies of unowned media.

Piracy is stealing. It is amazing to me to see the convoluted justifications that are posted in an attempt to justify what is simply stealing.

Back to the subject at hand. Am continuing to watch for DVDFab's posting of a "new" product that will add decryption to BluFab. I'm sure its being worked on already.

Again, I agree piracy is an issue. And absolutely, it is stealing. I don't like it. I pay for every product. Actually, I went a step further. Where a combo pack exists, I buy that so that I can say I purchased every available type of production they had. However, music is now DRM free. Why can't the studios offer a DRM free download or a version that we can rip to our hard-drives? Maybe charge an extra $5 fee for that.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
agogley is offline  
post #197 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 07:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
agogley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,643
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieBob View Post

Not everybody makes a six digit income, or has extra money at the end of the month. After seeing that everyday expenses are paid
Kids are off to school clean and clothed, and Now paying for Obama Care. Yep they really like paying $15 to $30 for a BD, To a movie 
industry that wants to lease you the rite to use there product every time you wish to use in in a different media after already paying for it.
This so they can live in there little microcosm of a life. Haven't even watched the awards in 30 years, don't care don't give a dang!!!!

That doesn't give anybody the right to steal it. If it is too expensive, then don't buy it. If enough people do that, the price will likely drop or people will flock to streaming services.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
agogley is offline  
post #198 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 08:35 PM
Senior Member
 
fritzi93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 39
HDCP strippers are still sold in the U.S., they just can't be marketed as such. There are HDMI splitters in 1X2 and 1X4 configurations that, oh, just happen to also remove HDCP. Yes, I have one.
Similarly, you can get an HDMI to component converter that does everything the HDFury did. But it isn't claimed that it also strips HDCP, which of course it does. I have one of those as well. (I need it to capture from my Roku to HD-PVR in 720p or 1080i, which I do occasionally).

It's much the same with Blu-Rays. I have to spend some money (on a decrypter) to access content on my terms. I don't want to handle physical discs any more than I have to. Before you dismiss this as being lazy, how many of you have ripped your CDs and have them in boxes somewhere? Same thing.

Tiresome, isn't it? But I blame the pirates, not the content providers.
StratmanX likes this.
fritzi93 is offline  
post #199 of 568 Old 03-26-2014, 11:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techflaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Define how big it has to be so that it is big enough to be an issue......
Let's do it the other way round: define what provable (!) numbers the industry needs to present so you think the retroactive copyright extensions and enforcement laws (collateral damage) are justified.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Piracy is stealing. It is amazing to me to see the convoluted justifications that are posted in an attempt to justify what is simply stealing.
Just as amazing as people insisting on using the wrong term to make it a moral argument. Copyright infringement isn't stealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

So I am curious if the US courts seizure of the DVDFab.com domain impacted people in other countries trying to connect to DVDFab.com.
Obviously you can't access a com domain from anywhere once it's been shut down. So people from everywhere now access dvdfab.cn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

But again, please feel free to believe what you wish and fits your perspective of how DVDFab and the likes are being used.
Sorry, but I don't see any reason why your anecdotal evidence should be any more credible or siginifanct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

So being honest about how this software is used is assuming the worse case criminal position?
Being honest as in believing your gut feeling or small sample size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by agogley View Post

I agree that piracy is a major problem.
Based on what? On the constant doom and gloom stories the industry puts out? On the yearly box office records of the movie industry? Some people have always watched media without paying for it (for whatever reason), the scale just hadn't been that obvious because there was no Internet.

Still, the topic of this thread is: do you think the US should have the power to extend their laws to the whole world on the behest of a tiny industry refusing to adapt to a new marketplace?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Things can only get better
techflaws is offline  
post #200 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 05:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
pittsoccer33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pittsburgh (East Liberty)
Posts: 1,869
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Let's do it the other way round: define what provable (!) numbers the industry needs to present so you think the retroactive copyright extensions and enforcement laws

I don't need any numbers. I think copyright should exist forever, so long as the copyright owner is demonstrably maintaining it. I'm not a lawyer and I don't know all the legal arguments, but I don't think anyone but Walt Disney or his appointed agent (the Walt Disney Company) should ever be allowed free use of Mickey Mouse. That's theirs, not yours, mine, or anyone else who wants to sell Steamboat Willie DVDs.

If William Shakespeare had set up a legal company to maintain his works I think they should still be collecting fees for printing and theatrical performance, if they chose so.
Quote:
Just as amazing as people insisting on using the wrong term to make it a moral argument. Copyright infringement isn't stealing.
This is legalese. If you copy something you don't own then you have commited an act of theft from the person who created it. Most people think obtaining something you didn't pay for is stealing.
Quote:
Sorry, but I don't see any reason why your anecdotal evidence should be any more credible or siginifanct.
Why do you refuse to entertain the idea that people use the public library, Redbox, etc to obtain movie collections? Heck my mom had two VCRs wired together in the mid 80s to copy movies she rented, which is kind of amazing in reterospect since she cant change TV inputs now.
Quote:
Based on what? On the constant doom and gloom stories the industry puts out? On the yearly box office records of the movie industry? Some people have always watched media without paying for it (for whatever reason), the scale just hadn't been that obvious because there was no Internet.
Fewer people are going to the movies and fewer DVDs are being sold. There are a lot of factors that go into both as to why, but they are true.
Quote:
Still, the topic of this thread is: do you think the US should have the power to extend their laws to the whole world on the behest of a tiny industry refusing to adapt to a new marketplace?
How would they do that without jurisdiction? Their laws are based on treaties by offshoot of the UN agency WIPO, of which they are a member.

I'm not the morality police and the kind of forum poster who loves pointing out "hey you're talking about something illegal!!!" when they mention torrents or ripping, but I think you have to concede that it is happening and that alot of people are doing it.

There are anecdotes all around - friends that log on virus filled websites to watch pro sports/pay per views, my boss who asked me why he couldnt fit the movies he downloaded that were larger than 4GB on a 16GB thumb drive, the friend who has a VPN for the sole reason of downloading tv shows, my other boss who was named in a John Doe torrent lawsuit, the fact that popular media collection management software has automatic torrenting built into it - I could keep going.

CDs werent encrypted because easy piracy wasn't a "thing." Now it is. How to deal with it in a way that is fair to the copyright holders and hassle free to the consumers is the argument peope need to be having. I think HDCP is a definite nightmare. I would have liked Ultraviolet to work out how it was intended.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Integration for whole home ATSC, CableCARD, FM radio, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, DVD, VHS control & capture, video games, and archived & streaming media playback

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Restore the initial MLL on a 2009 Panasonic plasma
pittsoccer33 is online now  
post #201 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 06:59 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

Similarly, you can get an HDMI to component converter that does everything the HDFury did. But it isn't claimed that it also strips HDCP, which of course it does. I have one of those as well. (I need it to capture from my Roku to HD-PVR in 720p or 1080i, which I do occasionally).
@fritzi93: Not picking on you. Just want to use your post as a convenient illustration.

I always find an interesting dichotomy in these types of discussions. People roundly condemn "piracy", usually defined as making a personal archive copy (digital or physical) of content from a physical disk that you don't own and is specifically protected by the content owner to let you know you are not entitled to make such a copy -- exemplified by rent-n-rip from either Netflix or Redbox or borrow-n-rip from the Public Library.

But there never seems to be more than a passing shrug when someone mentions or asks for help in capturing a rented Internet stream from Netflix, Amazon, etc. for personal archive. These Internet streams are clearly rentals, are they not? The rental provider transmits them with DRM so they obviously don't want you to digitally capture (pirate) them, right? As far as copyrighted content is concerned, the only difference between an Internet stream and a physical disk is the source of the bits -- and arguments about the streamed rental having lower resolution, lower bitrate or inferior audio are irrelevant. So why this socially acceptable attitude towards capturing rented streams to build a personal library vs. the righteous condemnation of ripping rented disks. Is there an implied attitude that if it's transmitted over the Internet it's fair game?

Piracy is piracy, is it not?

Some food for thought going forward.
TeflonSoul likes this.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #202 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 09:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
techflaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

I don't need any numbers. I think copyright should exist forever, so long as the copyright owner is demonstrably maintaining it.
You might wanna read up on the true purpose of copyright and why it was intended as a limited monopoly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know all the legal arguments, but I don't think anyone but Walt Disney or his appointed agent (the Walt Disney Company) should ever be allowed free use of Mickey Mouse.
It's funny you're using Disney of all companies to make your point. The company that worked the hardest to extent copyright retroactively and who took (or should I say steal?) tons of ideas from the public domain and now refuses to live up to the deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

This is legalese. If you copy something you don't own then you have commited an act of theft from the person who created it.
The fact that the person still has the something should point out the flaw in your reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Why do you refuse to entertain the idea that people use the public library, Redbox, etc to obtain movie collections?
Why do you make up a straw man? I never said this. I just don't think anecdotal evidence of your mom is as significant as you seem to think, nor that this would warrant stripping everyone of their fair use rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Fewer people are going to the movies and fewer DVDs are being sold. There are a lot of factors that go into both as to why, but they are true.
You certainly have numbers to back up that claim? While you're at it please look at the box office records numbers year after year and explain how they came to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

How would they do that without jurisdiction? Their laws are based on treaties by offshoot of the UN agency WIPO, of which they are a member.
If you really think the US hasn't been trying to bully other countries into adapting their laws (and isn't above censoring websites on the behest of the copyright industry), you really haven't been paying attention. I'm not gonna enter a debate on WIPO here, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

I'm not the morality police and the kind of forum poster who loves pointing out "hey you're talking about something illegal!!!" when they mention torrents or ripping, but I think you have to concede that it is happening and that alot of people are doing it.
I'm not denying it, I just don't think "a lot" warrants any changes to policy. Nor the fantasy numbers the industry keeps coming up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

There are anecdotes all around - friends that log on virus filled websites to watch pro sports/pay per views, my boss who asked me why he couldnt fit the movies he downloaded that were larger than 4GB on a 16GB thumb drive, the friend who has a VPN for the sole reason of downloading tv shows, my other boss who was named in a John Doe torrent lawsuit, the fact that popular media collection management has automatic torrenting built into it - I could keep going.
You could but it would only strengthen my point: that this has become the social norm. I'm with Infamous Joe on this one:

People pirate for three major reasons:
1. They have no money to buy your product
2. They don't value your product enough to pay for it
3. They're freeloaders who won't pay for any digital goods.

If we could wave a wand and make piracy go away, none of the above-mentioned groups would suddenly start buying.

Group 1 still has no money
Group 2 still doesn't value your products
and Group 3 is still a bunch of freeloaders.

It is *literally* a waste of time and money (aka, a bad business decision) to tilt at the windmill of piracy. So what you gonna do about it? Pay for new laws like SOPA and fail? Or try to adjust your business model?
CruelInventions likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Things can only get better
techflaws is offline  
post #203 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 09:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
pittsoccer33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Pittsburgh (East Liberty)
Posts: 1,869
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 84 Post(s)
Liked: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by techflaws View Post


People pirate for three major reasons:
1. They have no money to buy your product
2. They don't value your product enough to pay for it
3. They're freeloaders who won't pay for any digital goods.

Which one are you?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Integration for whole home ATSC, CableCARD, FM radio, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, DVD, VHS control & capture, video games, and archived & streaming media playback

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Restore the initial MLL on a 2009 Panasonic plasma
pittsoccer33 is online now  
post #204 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 09:23 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Gary J's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: 4000' or sea level
Posts: 7,607
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked: 89

Gary J
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Gary J is online now  
post #205 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 09:38 AM
Member
 
MishMouse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Is the following considered piracy?

Copying songs off the radio and converting them into MP3 format so you can play them on your iDevice.

Copying 33's, 45's and 78's into MP3 format.

Recording shows off of TV onto a VCR/DVD.

How about singing a popular song.
MishMouse is offline  
post #206 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 10:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by techflaws View Post

You could but it would only strengthen my point: that this has become the social norm. I'm with Infamous Joe on this one:

People pirate for three major reasons:
1. They have no money to buy your product
2. They don't value your product enough to pay for it
3. They're freeloaders who won't pay for any digital goods.

If we could wave a wand and make piracy go away, none of the above-mentioned groups would suddenly start buying.

Group 1 still has no money
Group 2 still doesn't value your products
and Group 3 is still a bunch of freeloaders.

Love it smile.gif

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #207 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 10:36 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Which one are you?
Bzzzzzzt . . . .

You just discredited yourself with the personal attack.

@Gary J
Love the cat.
If you ever find one with a Golden Retriever, you'll be my hero.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #208 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 10:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Delaware - The First State (USA)
Posts: 10,079
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by MishMouse View Post

Is the following considered piracy?

Copying songs off the radio and converting them into MP3 format so you can play them on your iDevice.

Copying 33's, 45's and 78's into MP3 format.

Recording shows off of TV onto a VCR/DVD.

How about singing a popular song.
See my post above.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

Kelson is offline  
post #209 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 11:26 AM
Senior Member
 
fritzi93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 422
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

@fritzi93: Not picking on you. Just want to use your post as a convenient illustration.

I always find an interesting dichotomy in these types of discussions. People roundly condemn "piracy", usually defined as making a personal archive copy (digital or physical) of content from a physical disk that you don't own and is specifically protected by the content owner to let you know you are not entitled to make such a copy -- exemplified by rent-n-rip from either Netflix or Redbox or borrow-n-rip from the Public Library.

But there never seems to be more than a passing shrug when someone mentions or asks for help in capturing a rented Internet stream from Netflix, Amazon, etc. for personal archive. These Internet streams are clearly rentals, are they not? The rental provider transmits them with DRM so they obviously don't want you to digitally capture (pirate) them, right? As far as copyrighted content is concerned, the only difference between an Internet stream and a physical disk is the source of the bits -- and arguments about the streamed rental having lower resolution, lower bitrate or inferior audio are irrelevant. So why this socially acceptable attitude towards capturing rented streams to build a personal library vs. the righteous condemnation of ripping rented disks. Is there an implied attitude that if it's transmitted over the Internet it's fair game?

Piracy is piracy, is it not?

Some food for thought going forward.

I see it as more like time-shifting.

Since I cut the cord and dropped cable, I don't do many captures any more, as I can access most things whenever I want.. The few streams I've captured from Roku are documentary series that may not be up indefinitely. The last one(s) I captured were Australia: the First 4 Billion Years (3 episodes) from the PBS channel on Roku.

Copyright infringement? Maybe, but time-shifting is well-established as an affirmative defense going back to the Betamax case. Ripping one's *own* Blu-Rays (to a server, etc, for convenience sake) is also copyright infringement, but with no affirmative defense available. And don't look to see it tested in court, as the content providers can't be sure they would prevail on those narrow grounds.

Surely, the content providers are much more worried about counterfeiting-for-profit (piracy, strictly speaking) and file sharing (torrents).
TeflonSoul likes this.
fritzi93 is offline  
post #210 of 568 Old 03-27-2014, 11:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
techflaws's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,016
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Liked: 27
@Gary
Busted, my a$$.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

Which one are you?
Swing and a miss. I'm none of those guys which I tought I'd made pretty clear some posts above. I pay for my media and time-shift/format-shift for my convenience. If I can't do that, I just go without. Revolutionary concept, I know.

Funny to see though, you couldn't counter any of my points and went for the cheap shot wink.gif


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Things can only get better
techflaws is offline  
Reply Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off