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post #241 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

From the European Union copyright directive:

Article 5(2) allows Member States to establish copyright exceptions to the Article 2 reproduction right in cases of:

photographic reproductions on paper or any similar medium of works (excluding sheet music) provided that the rightholders receives fair compensation,
reproductions on any medium made by a natural person for private use which is non-commercial provided that the rightholders receives fair compensation,
reproduction made by libraries, educational establishments, museums or archives, which are non-commercial
archival reproductions of broadcasts,
reproductions of broadcasts made by "social institutions pursuing non-commercial purposes, such as hospitals or prisons" provided that the rightholders receives fair compensation.

So a pretty restrictive directive, which members have to comply with, allows for reproduction as long as the author receives fair compensation (you have the disk).

The problem is in the US it is illegal to break/remove any encryption that may be on the disc you own. So in the case where you purchase the disc the author has gotten appropriate compensation yet it would still be illegal to copy the disc you bought since it means you broke the encryption (DVDs/BRs)

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post #242 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbone1026 View Post

The problem is in the US it is illegal to break/remove any encryption that may be on the disc you own. So in the case where you purchase the disc the author has gotten appropriate compensation yet it would still be illegal to copy the disc you bought since it means you broke the encryption (DVDs/BRs)

Agreed - but since the OP was from France, I quoted EU rules.
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post #243 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 08:51 AM
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law is much more complex than the very small part you quoted wink.gif

In France (and most of Europe except Luxembourg and Norway or Sweden i think), we can copy for personal use, but we can't break any DRM, so in reality we can't copy any DVD/BR, just unprotected CDs. The part about the "fair compensation" is related to the copy act only, so we have a special tax on every possible storage products (CD/DVD/BR-R and RW, but also USB HDD, USB sticks, memory cards and all devices including a storage : smartphones, tablets, navsat...) based on its MB size, this tax is officially here to compensate the fact that we can copy CD and goes exclusively to the Music Majors. Because legally we can't break any DRM, we can't copy movies, so we don't need to compensate anything (that's why I'm pretty sure we will one day have the right to break DRM for personnal copy : this will allow the creation of a new copy tax that will go to the Movie Majors as a "fair compensation"...).

When you pay for a BR, you just pay the right to use it as you wish in its original format that's all, this is in no way considered as a compensation for anything. The compensation to the fact that you can make a personal copy (when possible, i.e. only for unprotected contents) comes in extra to the buying act.
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post #244 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 10:06 AM
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One thing age has taut me, life is to short to worry about something as minuscule as  coping a BD for PERSONAL use.

If I was you people I would worry more about the hyper traders in the stock market stealing your retirement !!!!!!! 

Stealing stocks by hyper internet connections, is the norm, before a normal stock broker has a chance. The little investor is loosing Billions 

to people that already have Billions.Burn away the movie industry isn't going a way any time soon, neither is the software to circumvent it now. 

What new software will come up is hard to say. Burn on once your dead its over, have some fun. ( That's My Opinion )

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post #245 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ErnieBob View Post

Burn away the movie industry isn't going a way any time soon, neither is the software to circumvent it now. What new software will come up is hard to say. Burn on once your dead its over, have some fun. ( That's My Opinion )
I think people pretty much feel that way, but it's been really slow around the other threads.

Everyone knows the DMCA makes it illegal in the US for one to break encryptions on video disks -- there are no exceptions to this for "fair use", whatever that really is. Yet we all sit around threads in this forum and talk freely about it -- recommending our personal software choices, detailing our best workflow strategies and offering lots of tips for violating the law. smile.gif We make the distinction that because we paid for and own the physical media we are justified in transforming the contents into any other form we wish for our personal and private enjoyment. I don't think anyone really takes issue with that otherwise the discussions probably would have already been shut down long ago -- it takes on the flavor of mild civil disobedience.

As has been pointed out, the problem is how do you allow people of good intent to enjoy the product as they choose vs. those who would abuse the system. No answer to that one.
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post #246 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnieBob View Post

Burn away the movie industry isn't going a way any time soon, neither is the software to circumvent it now. What new software will come up is hard to say. Burn on once your dead its over, have some fun. ( That's My Opinion )
I think people pretty much feel that way, but it's been really slow around the other threads.

Everyone knows the DMCA makes it illegal in the US for one to break encryptions on video disks -- there are no exceptions to this for "fair use", whatever that really is. Yet we all sit around threads in this forum and talk freely about it -- recommending our personal software choices, detailing our best workflow strategies and offering lots of tips for violating the law. smile.gif We make the distinction that because we paid for and own the physical media we are justified in transforming the contents into any other form we wish for our personal and private enjoyment. I don't think anyone really takes issue with that otherwise the discussions probably would have already been shut down long ago -- it takes on the flavor of mild civil disobedience.

As has been pointed out, the problem is how do you allow people of good intent to enjoy the product as they choose vs. those who would abuse the system. No answer to that one.



You are not correct. There is no law that prevents you from buying or using encryption breaking software.

However, it is not legal to sell software that breaks the encryption.


http://www.ehow.com/facts_7469072_legal-use-anydvd-software_.html
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post #247 of 575 Old 04-03-2014, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You are not correct. There is no law that prevents you from buying or using encryption breaking software.

However, it is not legal to sell software that breaks the encryption.


http://www.ehow.com/facts_7469072_legal-use-anydvd-software_.html

Perhaps you should read the full link you are citing:
Quote:
Digital Millennium Copyright Act

Digital encryption on DVD discs protects the copyrights of content owners.

According to the University of Washington, Congress passed the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in 1998 to prevent the circumvention of copyright protection technology on DVD discs. Movies on DVD include digital encryption coding to prevent the disc from being copied. Using AnyDVD or any other software to bypass or remove copyright protection on a DVD is illegal in the United States.

My statement of no exception for "fair use" were implied for individuals and not institutions like Libraries and schools which are allowed to make copies under defined exceptions.

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post #248 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 07:26 AM
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My opinion is the movie industry should embrace the technology instead of shun it.
If they do not us making digital copies of the disc we bought, fine, but then provide us a digital copy that we can use to stream to multiple devices.
This is the future, the music industry was against this, technology won they lost.

What I think the movie industry should do:
If someone purchases a copy of media they register it.
Once registered they can get a digital copy of that media.
Similar to what is offered with some Blu-rays.
If a digital copy is not available, they can then break the copy protection to create there own copy.
But, the media will still be registered to their account.
For rentals, they will already be registered to the business that bought them and thus making copies of them would still be illegal, unless they want to pay a fee to obtain the digital download.
Also copyrighted material in digital format that is not registered would not be playable until it is registered.

Right now, these services are being offered by alternative means, if the movie industry was serious about this, they would have already implemented a similar process.
Since their leaders are acting like the Pointy Haired Boss within a Dilbert cartoon and trying to push laws that buck technology they are bound to fail, and in fact are failing since alternative companies are offering the service they should already provide.

Other benefits of this system:
Since people would have to register their media in order to obtain a digital copy, the industry could track what media people have in order to provide better services in the future.
If people are more interested in family orientated movies then a change can be made to focus on that demand.
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post #249 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 07:41 AM
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Couple of problems with what you suggest...

First, you say "If a digital copy is not available, they can then break the copy protection to create there own copy." What if I always want a digital copy that's an exact copy of a Blu-ray. Full 1080p, hd audio, etc. I don't see studios wanting me to have such digital copies ever. Also, I wouldn't, but what's to stop people from selling their original discs on eBay w/o digital copy codes (already being done)?

Second, all media players (manufacturers) would need to be part of the scheme to allow only registered copies of digital movies to be playable. Makes sense, but daunting to implement.

Finally, studios won't get to charge you for the same movie for playback on multiple devices, so they'll see this as loss of revenue. It's better than piracy, but they still won't like it.

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post #250 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 07:47 AM
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Was just about to comment the same as Brajesh, especially point #1 (unless the expectation is that the digital copies will be 1:1 replicas which I highly doubt)

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post #251 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brajesh View Post

Couple of problems with what you suggest...

First, you say "If a digital copy is not available, they can then break the copy protection to create there own copy." What if I always want a digital copy that's an exact copy of a Blu-ray. Full 1080p, hd audio, etc. I don't see studios wanting me to have such digital copies ever. Also, I wouldn't, but what's to stop people from selling their original discs on eBay w/o digital copy codes (already being done)?

Second, all media players (manufacturers) would need to be part of the scheme to allow only registered copies of digital movies to be playable. Makes sense, but daunting to implement.

Finally, studios won't get to charge you for the same movie for playback on multiple devices, so they'll see this as loss of revenue. It's better than piracy, but they still won't like it.

Under this thought experiment: If the media is registered to you, even though they do not offer a copy the media is still registered to you, so under this scenario you can sell your disc but they will not be able to make a copy.

As implementation, if an app was installed on the device that checked when specific media is opened, it should be able to verify that media, if not it could block it.
Yes the app would have to be compatible to that device, but that should not be that much of an issue if the standard is followed.

They could charge you a fee like $1 for that digital copy, to pay for the process of obtaining a digital copy that is in Full 1080p, HD audio, 3-d, X, Y, or Z.

Note: This is just a thought experiment, will the movie industry listen and modify this process, right know I would have to say no. They like the pointy haired boss in Dilbert are short sighted and living in the past.
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post #252 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brajesh View Post

Couple of problems with what you suggest...

First, you say "If a digital copy is not available, they can then break the copy protection to create there own copy." What if I always want a digital copy that's an exact copy of a Blu-ray. Full 1080p, hd audio, etc. I don't see studios wanting me to have such digital copies ever. Also, I wouldn't, but what's to stop people from selling their original discs on eBay w/o digital copy codes (already being done)?

Second, all media players (manufacturers) would need to be part of the scheme to allow only registered copies of digital movies to be playable. Makes sense, but daunting to implement.

Finally, studios won't get to charge you for the same movie for playback on multiple devices, so they'll see this as loss of revenue. It's better than piracy, but they still won't like it.

Aren't they already doing this with Cinavia? the only reason Cinavia is not affecting every bluray out there is that some studios are not signed on to it. Not because the manufacturers haven't been forced to adopt it.
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post #253 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 12:30 PM
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Aren't they already doing this with Cinavia? the only reason Cinavia is not affecting every bluray out there is that some studios are not signed on to it. Not because the manufacturers haven't been forced to adopt it.
Not media players. Only devices like BD players that need a BDA license to decrypt disks have to implement Cinavia -- that is why you don't see any media players that support full BD menus any more. Putting Cinavia on a media player would kill it in the market. Media player makers would never adopt any content restrictions for their hardware unless they were forced to do so by license or law.

Cinavia is a Sony show.
In 2013, only 2 of the 44 BD titles released with Cinavia were not from Sony.
So far for 2014, all 20 Cinavia infected BD titles released are from Sony.

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post #254 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

that is why you don't see any media players that support full BD menus any more

Android VidOn AV200 supports BD menus (including BD-J). Of course, without BDA/AACS license. And it hasn't Cinavia problem.
BTW VidOn uses DVDFab technology to support BD menus...
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post #255 of 575 Old 04-04-2014, 08:22 PM
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Sales ad.....

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #256 of 575 Old 04-05-2014, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Eric View Post

As has been pointed out, the problem is how do you allow people of good intent to enjoy the product as they choose vs. those who would abuse the system.
The problem is how to make people want to buy your content rather than waste your time on preventing them from "abusing" the system.
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post #257 of 575 Old 04-05-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Not media players. Only devices like BD players that need a BDA license to decrypt disks have to implement Cinavia -- that is why you don't see any media players that support full BD menus any more. Putting Cinavia on a media player would kill it in the market. Media player makers would never adopt any content restrictions for their hardware unless they were forced to do so by license or law.

Cinavia is a Sony show.
In 2013, only 2 of the 44 BD titles released with Cinavia were not from Sony.
So far for 2014, all 20 Cinavia infected BD titles released are from Sony.

Interesting, I, for one, have films on my media server, and for every one I have on the server, I have the disc on my shelf......I currently use UltraViolet to stream my newer movies and am wating for CFF(Common File Format) to be deployed(If it ever will be).....It's been delayed until the 2nd half of the year.....My concern is that with all the DRMs approved by the DECE for UltraViolet, they can always add others.....My gut is telling me Cinavia may be one of them, because that is a kick-a** DRM.....Media players would be forced to implement whatever DRM there is at the time for the CFF downloads.....
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post #258 of 575 Old 04-05-2014, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

You are not correct. There is no law that prevents you from buying or using encryption breaking software.

However, it is not legal to sell software that breaks the encryption.


http://www.ehow.com/facts_7469072_legal-use-anydvd-software_.html

Perhaps you should read the full link you are citing:
Quote:
Digital Millennium Copyright Act

Digital encryption on DVD discs protects the copyrights of content owners.

According to the University of Washington, Congress passed the Digital Millennium Copyright Act in 1998 to prevent the circumvention of copyright protection technology on DVD discs. Movies on DVD include digital encryption coding to prevent the disc from being copied. Using AnyDVD or any other software to bypass or remove copyright protection on a DVD is illegal in the United States.

My statement of no exception for "fair use" were implied for individuals and not institutions like Libraries and schools which are allowed to make copies under defined exceptions.



This may make the issue clearer:


"So while it may well be fair use for an individual consumer to store a backup copy of a
personally-owned DVD on that individual’s computer, a federal law has nonetheless made it illegal
to manufacture or traffic in a device or tool that permits a consumer to make such copies. See id. at
1125 (“while it is not unlawful to circumvent for the purpose of engaging in fair use, it is unlawful to
traffic in tools that allow fair use circumvention.
”)."


Fair_ Use
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post #259 of 575 Old 04-05-2014, 03:23 PM
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What is still clear is that you are wrong.
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post #260 of 575 Old 04-05-2014, 03:31 PM
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What is still clear is that you are wrong.



Cite the court decision that backs you up!
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post #261 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by donthetech View Post

Media players would be forced to implement whatever DRM there is at the time for the CFF downloads.....
Forced by whom? Or do you mean only media players that support Ultraviolet?

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post #262 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 02:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokap View Post

Android VidOn AV200 supports BD menus (including BD-J). Of course, without BDA/AACS license. And it hasn't Cinavia problem.
BTW VidOn uses DVDFab technology to support BD menus...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Sales ad.....
Actually, it's not a sales ad!

I have a VidOn.me AV200 clone device, complete with a VidOn.me version of XBMC (called VidOn XBMC) and I'm able to play full disc Blu-ray disc .ISO back-ups complete with based Java menus via USB connected HDD. Admittedly some full disc Blu-ray disc .ISO back-ups work better than others but it's a good start and it does work...

EDIT: And with regard to Cinavia. Currently it's inclusion is only mandatory for hardware media players that include a Blu-ray disc drive.
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post #263 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 06:16 AM
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EDIT: And with regard to Cinavia. Currently it's inclusion is only mandatory for hardware media players that include a Blu-ray disc drive.
It also includes any PC software players that need the BDA license to decrypt and play BD disks.

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post #264 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 07:02 AM
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It also includes any PC software players that need the BDA license to decrypt and play BD disks.
And thank goodness it does too. Otherwise you would not be able to play any of those Cinavia infested 'store bought' Blu-ray disc's using that software media player you've spent your hard earned money on frown.gif

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post #265 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

And thank goodness it does too. Otherwise you would not be able to play any of those Cinavia infested 'store bought' Blu-ray disc's you've spent your hard earned money on frown.gif

Cinavia only functions when special code is included in the player to detect the embedded Cinavia signal and activate copy protection audio blocking. If Cinavia code was not included in software players, they would play Cinavia-infected discs and ripped videos just fine.
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post #266 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 07:22 AM
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I read the new version of PowerDVD is to include Cinavia. Lets hope that VLC isn't forced to include it.
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post #267 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 08:19 AM
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yes, in order to have the ability to play back CFF files from any storage device(i.e. NAS, external hard drive, etc.), the DRM will be embedded into the player and the file, so that files can be played offline.......My fear is if they decide to include Cinavia in the mix, that will take out all my Sony Pictures films currently on my server, but no matter, I'll just use the UV digital copies and re-download them back to it....Like Kelson said, Cinavia is a Sony party at the moment, but it could catch on....There is a reason it was required for all new Blu-Ray players......CFF has been delayed several times already....
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post #268 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 08:32 AM
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but it's a good start and it does work..."

How is it a "good start"? The issue in this thread is the ability to break copy protection schemes is being eliminated. The hardware that you are pushing depends on copy protection being broken before it can play anything.

There is nothing about your post and plug for DVDFab's media player that is a "good start" as it relates to the theme of this thread.

To be a "good start" in context of this discussion DVDFab's hardware would have to do the decryption and not need any software product, DVDFab or ANYDVD, to break the copy protection.

Without software to break the copy protection any media player basically becomes a paper weight. Even with additional features the main reason any of us have media players is to playback archived movies and not need disks.

DVDFab's hardware changes nothing in that regard.

So no, it is NOT a good start.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #269 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 08:39 AM
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UV digital copies.....

That's what we're going to come back to it seems. They'll be two choices when we sit down to watch a movie in our home theaters.

1. I want to hear high def audio and see high def video. Where's the disk?
2. I want convenience. Let go of the high def audio and use the "approved" digital copy off my media storage device played through my media server OR same type of content streamed via Netflix, etc., but it will be the same entertainment experience.


For me the reason I have a home theater and invested in high def is as much about the audio as the video. So for me my priorities are changing away from all that is involved with having a media server and is going back to disk based playback.

I guess it is good in one regard. I'm not going to spend money on the new wave of media servers.

Poorly timed for folks who make these media servers though. Seems like the technology was getting mature and becoming solidly placed in our home theaters. XMBC getting mature, etc.

Going to hurt those industries.

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post #270 of 575 Old 04-06-2014, 08:51 AM
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"Lets hope that VLC isn't forced to include it."

Hasn't the nature of the dialog changed? Once we can't archive a disk how the source is going to be played back impacts all the dominoes on down the line yes?

We end up not using VLC to play an archive. We end up using VLC to play a disk or as noted the digital copy provided with some blurays.

If in order to playback the disk the disk requires X, than VLC will have to provide X, yes? Regardless of what "X" is now or maybe in the future the media companies win this issue and IF you want to use VLC, VLC will have to comply with the media companies requirements.

If you are just playing back a digital copy kind of source, then VLC like our media players should not need any special ability.


The impact of the media companies winning is wide spread. I'd say just how wide spread is still coming into focus.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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