Giving Up on Blu-Ray: Why I Switched to The Cloud - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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post #571 of 706 Old 06-17-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by redjr View Post
If we have a cap I don't know about it. But I would since I have a 13 and 16yr in the house! I don't know what they'd do without streaming. We pay extra for the PowerBoost thingy too.
I just checked our account and I notice we do have a 250GB data limit, but it has been suspended. So, I don't know what that means really.
Powerboost only adds additional download speed for the first 20MB of a file, not worth the premium.

Suspended means that they simply aren't enforcing caps in your area yet. Cap enforcement is coming to you one day.

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post #572 of 706 Old 06-17-2014, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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When you do not use a center channel, how do you prevent DRC from being applied when you listen to DD material?
I'm not even sure of the issue you are referring to, but if it's specific to standard Dolby Digital then it's almost a non-issue for me since I've practically given up on iTunes and I never watch DVDs.

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post #573 of 706 Old 06-17-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm not even sure of the issue you are referring to, but if it's specific to standard Dolby Digital then it's almost a non-issue for me since I've practically given up on iTunes and I never watch DVDs.
I think this is the issue they are referring to, I never heard of it either.


Receivers capable of phantom center without engaging Dolby DRC?
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post #574 of 706 Old 06-17-2014, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post
Do you have the issue on non-peak times like 10am Wednesday morning?
May be Comcast bandwidth is being used up by others in your area.

I have a meager 12mb DSL and always get VuDu HDX 1080p through my Panasonic Blu-ray player with a hardwire Ethernet connection.
I also have no buffering issues when I pause & resume a movie.
We only watch VuDu (new releases only) on Friday or Saturday night so it's during the peak hours.
There is not much difference between morning and evening.

Unfortunately, even when a speed test shows I am getting full bandwidth (which does vary wildly) Vudu still has trouble. Comcast says it's a problem with Vudu capacity in our area. Vudu says it's a problem with Comcast.

Comcast is coming out again because as long as I am not always getting solid throughput, I will chase that goal -- even if it doesn't solve the Vudu issues.

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post #575 of 706 Old 06-17-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
When you do not use a center channel, how do you prevent DRC from being applied when you listen to DD material?
DRC code can be present in DD+ too:

http://www.atsc.org/cms/pdf/bootcamp...illiams_r1.pdf

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post #576 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I'm not even sure of the issue you are referring to, but if it's specific to standard Dolby Digital then it's almost a non-issue for me since I've practically given up on iTunes and I never watch DVDs.

If you don't know what I am referring to as far as the Dolby DRC issue, then any comments you make about running a system without a center channel are hardly accurate.

Off air television is 100% DD. If your streaming source is any form of DD, then you don't watch that content either?
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post #577 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
If you don't know what I am referring to as far as the Dolby DRC issue, then any comments you make about running a system without a center channel are hardly accurate.

Off air television is 100% DD. If your streaming source is any form of DD, then you don't watch that content either?
I don't watch TV at all, so that's a non-issue for me. The shows I watch, I buy on Vudu. I have zero issues with intelligibility; and besides, I don't look to Dolby Digital for the ultimate in quality. What part of my comments regarding using a phantom center are inaccurate? That I could hear dialog clearly? Do you even know if my SC-55 uses DRC when playing back DD content in phantom mode? Does it really matter if DD is considered flawed to begin with?

If I really want to avoid the issue, I can use a ChromeCast to watch DD streaming content; it converts to linear PCM... and then I can use a nanoAVR to mix the phantom center—just to me 100% sure. But I don't, because there's basically no situation that calls for it, at least not with the way I watch content.

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post #578 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SFMike View Post
I Just stumbled across this thread and find it somewhat mirrors my current feelings about streaming. As a longtime blu-ray collector who appreciates quality picture and sound I had not been impressed with streaming video services. Recently we moved and had a Comcast high-speed internet connection hooked up and this made all the difference in streaming quality.

Last week I signed up for a trial of the streaming Warner Archivecollection and was amazed to find many of the films I had purchased on DVD fromthe Warner Archive now being streamed in HD with excellent video and sound quality. I would assume we are never going to see blu-ray releases of these old classic films and the HD versions make my DVD discs look blurry at best. It was great seeing one of my favorite films, Ken Russell's "The Boy Friend"in HD with image quality far above that of the WB DVD I had just re-watched a week ago. I had hoped that The Warner Archive might release this one on blu-ray but now I feel there is little hope of that. Even though the Warner Archive films run on a rotation, it will be very disappointing to ever re-watch the $19.99 DVD after seeing the HD version streamed onto my 70" display. I would love to have a cloud purchase of this title if offered.

So I am now also a new convert to the concept of streamingHD video from the cloud. As compression and bandwidth both get better in the future I can see my large collection of DVDs and Blu-rays just being a storage problem. I still like the feeling of owning the physical discs but if we canget the benefit of huge libraries of films in HD quality on demand and at low price it’s hard to see a downside to streaming. I'm a real 3D freak (an unloved video minority) and blu-ray still trumps streaming in the picture quality department in their case so I will still continue to purchase them but I can see not buying as much physical media in the future. Tech marches on......


The movie "The Boy Friend" does not show up on the current Warner streaming list. Warner also adds movies (new additions) and drops movies (leaving soon).

The current Warner streaming list is also kind of limited as compared with the DVD purchase option ($10 to $11 each free shipping when on sale).

http://instant.warnerarchive.com/bro...#CF_2461-3417;
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post #579 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I don't watch TV at all, so that's a non-issue for me. The shows I watch, I buy on Vudu. I have zero issues with intelligibility; and besides, I don't look to Dolby Digital for the ultimate in quality. What part of my comments regarding using a phantom center are inaccurate? That I could hear dialog clearly? Do you even know if my SC-55 uses DRC when playing back DD content in phantom mode? Does it really matter if DD is considered flawed to begin with?

If I really want to avoid the issue, I can use a ChromeCast to watch DD streaming content; it converts to linear PCM... and then I can use a nanoAVR to mix the phantom center—just to me 100% sure. But I don't, because there's basically no situation that calls for it, at least not with the way I watch content.

You don't watch TV at all? That really makes you an odd ball. So you have no way of watching say the latest free weekly FOX show called 24? Interesting to say the least.

I bet you 90% of the time I use my full system to watch TV content, and movies (DVD / Blu) the other 10% of the time.

As far as how your specific AVR works, that is up to you to figure out. Since you own no DVD nor Bluray content, I don't know how you can even test the DD DRC issue out on your equipment.

Dynamic range is the issue when DRC is applied, not the clarity of the center channel audio.
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post #580 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
You don't watch TV at all? That really makes you an odd ball. So you have no way of watching say the latest free weekly FOX show called 24? Interesting to say the least.

I bet you 90% of the time I use my full system to watch TV content, and movies (DVD / Blu) the other 10% of the time.

As far as how your specific AVR works, that is up to you to figure out. Since you own no DVD nor Bluray content, I don't know how you can even test the DD DRC issue out on your equipment.

Dynamic range is the issue when DRC is applied, not the clarity of the center channel audio.
I don't watch TV, that includes 24—but I do have an antenna if I really had the urge to do so.

I still have a Blu-ray or two lying around, including the THX Calibrator disc. I also kept a copy of Django Unchained, which I also own in Vudu and iTunes formats, making it easy to perform a comparison. Therefor, I'll test the DD issue—I've got all the gear I need and AVS as a resource if I get lost or confused about terminology

You do realize you jumped into a conversation I was having about phantom center intelligibility, right? I think the DD issue is interesting and I'm going to look into it some more, but it's also a tangent that you wanted to discuss, it was not what I was talking about. However, thanks for pointing out a potential issue with using a phantom center.

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post #581 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 07:57 AM
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Interesting Topic that I've Considered - BD Sound Trumps

I don't know if I'm the only one that has a Blu-Ray collection of about 400 but rarely pull any out and play them yet an inferior version will be on as I surf and like an idiot I'll sit through it even though I know it's inferior. I find myself using my Amazon Prime to view a lot of free HD stuff and documentaries. I know for sure that audio in BD will kick ass comparatively if you have a quality SS system.

Take for example the Godfather remastered BD and there are sounds in the background that add to the experience significantly. If I were to seriously sit down and view best quality PQ for now I'd go BD but one of the primary winning factors are it's audio supremacy but often I'm just lazily watching TV. One of the reasons I stopped buying BD's is I found so many releases that are simply lousy and not worth a penny - CGI uses have gone overboard to the extent it makes me yawn and anxious for it to be done as it's become special effects for the sake of it and it pisses me off whereas I love watching Game of Thrones where it's used sparingly but wonderfully so the storyline comes first and it's CGI is icing.

When I see another Transformers or Twilight movie ad where it seems 12 year old girls/boys write this crap it makes me want to vomit. My issue is that 90% of the movies are not worthy of purchase and cable providers have surpassed Hollywood formula which is more likely to be streamed on-demand versus waiting 6-12 months to buy it piecemeal. Still have my BD collection often collecting dust since I gave up my high end DefTek Mythos SS audio when we moved and I'm stuck with a rather mundane Sony sound bar with wireless sub. Better than TV sound but marginally better - for those that have marginal sound like this they won't notice the audio much but if you have high end SS it's a huge difference for Blu the streamers need to catch-up to. Eventually streaming and 4K with HQ sound will trump BD that is for certain.
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post #582 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 09:07 AM
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Unfortunately, even when a speed test shows I am getting full bandwidth (which does vary wildly) Vudu still has trouble. Comcast says it's a problem with Vudu capacity in our area. Vudu says it's a problem with Comcast.
I'm sure you are aware that Comcast recently won their fight with Netflix and now extract a surcharge from Netflix because of the high bandwidth use. Comcast pressed their point by throttling bandwidth to Netflix streamers to lower their quality and disrupt the streaming.

Perhaps Comcast is now starting to apply those tactics to the other streaming providers to coerce further tribute.

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post #583 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 10:18 AM
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I'm sure you are aware that Comcast recently won their fight with Netflix and now extract a surcharge from Netflix because of the high bandwidth use. Comcast pressed their point by throttling bandwidth to Netflix streamers to lower their quality and disrupt the streaming.

Perhaps Comcast is now starting to apply those tactics to the other streaming providers to coerce further tribute.
Yep, the highway is getting throttled whether we like it or not. This court action just further proves the point of the golden rule. 'Them with gold makes the rules." This will be a landmark and precedent setting decision with negative repercussions for the consumer. That cost to Netflix will only get passed on - sooner or later - to its customers.

That's why I say, let me buy the disc and watch, whenever and wherever I please. Nothing beats a BD on a good system - for a viewing or listening experience.

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post #584 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep, the highway is getting throttled whether we like it or not. This court action just further proves the point of the golden rule. 'Them with gold makes the rules." This will be a landmark and precedent setting decision with negative repercussions for the consumer. That cost to Netflix will only get passed on - sooner or later - to its customers.

That's why I say, let me buy the disc and watch, whenever and wherever I please. Nothing beats a BD on a good system - for a viewing or listening experience.
There's a pretty big discrepancy between the cost of a disc and the cost of Netflix. If Netflix doubles its price, it'll still be about the same as buying one new-release Blu-ray per month... when its on sale. I think Netflix should pick up some of the costs involved with the popularity of its service, just not the way it actually went down. Net neutrality needs to be preserved, but Netflix needs to stop pretending it isn't a significant contributor to Internet traffic jams, seeing how it accounts for so much traffic.

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post #585 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 10:28 AM
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...since I gave up my high end DefTek Mythos SS audio when we moved and I'm stuck with a rather mundane Sony sound bar with wireless sub. Better than TV sound but marginally better - for those that have marginal sound like this they won't notice the audio much but if you have high end SS it's a huge difference for Blu the streamers need to catch-up to. Eventually streaming and 4K with HQ sound will trump BD that is for certain.
Kind of offtopic, but this got me thinking about the next step in audio beyond the current 7.1 channel lossless Dolby TrueHD & DTS-HD Master Audio. All signs point towards the next step being object based audio with as many as 32 discrete channels of audio, but down-scalable to make the best possible use of your setup, whatever that may be. I'm sure they will try their best to make the experience sound as best it can for those who use a soundbar + subwoofer setup but, without adding more drivers, I suspect that there would be very little (if any) difference in sound quality between current 7.1 channel lossless audio played thru a soundbar + subwoofer and 32 channel object-based audio played thru that same soundbar + subwoofer. It seems that the greatest benefits of the new format would be for those who use more than 7 speakers plus a subwoofer, followed by those who use 7 or fewer speakers plus a subwoofer that are not ideally located (since the system can compensate for speakers that are not ideally located to give you the proper effect). Neither of these benefits would seem to have an effect for those who use soundbars, since a soundbar is generally easy to place in the ideal location and can't take advantage of the extra discrete channels without adding more drivers. If I am right about this then users of sound bars might never really get sound quality better than what they are currently getting with Blu-Ray. The same would be true for those who use the TV's built-in speakers.
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post #586 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 10:40 AM
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I'm sure you are aware that Comcast recently won their fight with Netflix and now extract a surcharge from Netflix because of the high bandwidth use. Comcast pressed their point by throttling bandwidth to Netflix streamers to lower their quality and disrupt the streaming.

Perhaps Comcast is now starting to apply those tactics to the other streaming providers to coerce further tribute.
If indeed, Comcast is ever found guilty of throttling VUDU (Walmart) - they will have as Yamamoto once said - "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

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post #587 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 10:52 AM
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I'm sorry I just keep trying to rationalize this and I can not. The quality of blu-ray video/audio is unmatched.

I just was streaming Hunger games Catching fire and the dark scenes where horrible, the banding I was able to see scene from scene.

I threw in the the Blu-ray and what difference. Night and day. One great scene for testing the sound field was when all the mocking jays where flying around. The streaming version did not have this effect on my system at all.
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post #588 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 11:10 AM
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If indeed, Comcast is ever found guilty of throttling VUDU (Walmart) - they will have as Yamamoto once said - "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."
You are assuming that Vudu (Walmart) is not ok with Comcast throttling the bandwidth of its customers. Netflix eventually capitulated and paid Comcast, but did this hurt Netflix? Not really, they simply increased their subscription fees to offset this cost. Vudu could essentially do the same by either increasing its pricing or (more likely) waiting longer to reduce pricing on films than they currently do. So long as they don't push their pricing too high (to the point where it could cost them sales) they aren't the ones being hurt. It's people like us that bear the burden.
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post #589 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 11:21 AM
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You are assuming that Vudu (Walmart) is not ok with Comcast throttling the bandwidth of its customers.
Yes, I am assuming that VUDU/Walmart is not okay with their customers being throttled.

Netflix has nowhere near the clout of the behemoth that is Walmart.
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post #590 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 12:30 PM
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Yes, I am assuming that VUDU/Walmart is not okay with their customers being throttled.

Netflix has nowhere near the clout of the behemoth that is Walmart.
I'm not sure WalMart can just get anything they want because they are a behemoth. They have still yet to build their first store in any borough of NYC and they have tried to no avail.

Netflix was willing to pony up some cash to get it done. The way WalMart works, I don't see them putting up the cash for their customers to get faster speeds. They'll just take the money and leave it up to the customer to work it out with their ISP.

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post #591 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 02:01 PM
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I'm sorry I just keep trying to rationalize this and I can not. The quality of blu-ray video/audio is unmatched.

I just was streaming Hunger games Catching fire and the dark scenes where horrible, the banding I was able to see scene from scene.

I threw in the the Blu-ray and what difference. Night and day. One great scene for testing the sound field was when all the mocking jays where flying around. The streaming version did not have this effect on my system at all.
Agreed.
There is simply no comparison in terms of quality. I'm amazed people are even TRYING to compare here. That being said though, streaming does have its advantages, as does BD, DVD, HDD so why this thread is even here I have no idea. Someone wants to switch from BD to streaming. Big deal.

As for BD going fading away.... it's not. We no longer live in a world where there is one single delivery method and format. These methods are now wide and varied and this is the way it will stay. Consumers now have a choice and that choice won't be taken away. Maybe someday dvd will give into Blu ray as VHS gave into dvd, and blu ray may fade away in favor of stick, but physical media isn't going anywhere. Sure, streaming is taking a bite out of disc, but that's only logical as the market settles out.

Soooo.... what is this tired and useless thread about???
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post #592 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 02:14 PM
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Traffic. The more people that read the pages, add to the pages, visit the pages -- the more clicks through, the more ads served, the better for the bottom line. It's like how many articles online these days are click through slide shows. Much better for advertising revenue.

Or, walk into a sports bar and start saying how the home team is not any better than the upstart full of rookies, you'll get a similar event....

------

That, and it's interesting to debate trade offs (convenience versus quality versus cost versus reliability versus access etc) -- though I think 99% of the trade offs were covered in the first few pages, and the rest is mostly thrashing.

And by posting this, I am as guilty as the rest
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post #593 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 03:55 PM
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I'm not sure WalMart can just get anything they want because they are a behemoth. They have still yet to build their first store in any borough of NYC and they have tried to no avail.

Netflix was willing to pony up some cash to get it done. The way WalMart works, I don't see them putting up the cash for their customers to get faster speeds. They'll just take the money and leave it up to the customer to work it out with their ISP.
I'm glad they are not able to get into NYC because their influence on our economy and elsewhere around the world is big enough.

The point I was making was that a company whose annual revenue last year was $469 billion (Walmart) can't be compared to the annual revenue of $4.3 billion for Netflix. Meaning that Walmart's army of lawyers is larger than Comcast's. Comcast's annual revenue was $62.5 billion in 2013. VUDU has a guardian angel while Netflix does not.

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post #594 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm glad they are not able to get into NYC because their influence on our economy and elsewhere around the world is big enough.

The point I was making was that a company whose annual revenue last year was $469 billion (Walmart) can't be compared to the annual revenue of $4.3 billion for Netflix. Meaning that Walmart's army of lawyers is larger than Comcast's. Comcast's annual revenue was $62.5 billion in 2013. VUDU has a guardian angel while Netflix does not.
Walmart is huge, but the politics that keep it out of New York is a unique form of NIMBY contrarianism IMO. I mean come on... New York City is the home of Wall Street. So, Manhattan has a bunch of K-Marts and in the meantime Walmart's market cap is $244 billion. Anyhow, I think it's Wall Street's influence on the economy and the world that's a bigger issue.

As for Comcast, it makes more than enough money to out-lawyer Walmart, if that's what's needed. I hear Comcast is all about lobbying and hardball boardroom tactics. Comcast's market cap is 136 billion, not that far off from Walmart. Both are gigantic compared to Netflix (26 billion) and they all positively dwarf Kmart's 4 billion market cap.

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post #595 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:07 PM
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There's a pretty big discrepancy between the cost of a disc and the cost of Netflix. If Netflix doubles its price, it'll still be about the same as buying one new-release Blu-ray per month... when its on sale. I think Netflix should pick up some of the costs involved with the popularity of its service, just not the way it actually went down. Net neutrality needs to be preserved, but Netflix needs to stop pretending it isn't a significant contributor to Internet traffic jams, seeing how it accounts for so much traffic.


You have to add in the monthly cost of your internet service to evaluate streaming costs against purchase costs (DVD or Blu). I don't stream, so lowly DSL is adequate for my use. I am not on cable either, so no monthly cable fees.

I can buy a lot of DVD / Bluray discs each month for the amount of money that others spend on internet service and cable. Buy a movie, watch the movie, then put it away for 10 years and watch it again.
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post #596 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:10 PM
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I'm sure you are aware that Comcast recently won their fight with Netflix and now extract a surcharge from Netflix because of the high bandwidth use. Comcast pressed their point by throttling bandwidth to Netflix streamers to lower their quality and disrupt the streaming.

Perhaps Comcast is now starting to apply those tactics to the other streaming providers to coerce further tribute.

How does Netfix get their traffic to the Comcast system? Netfix could easily have a bottleneck somewhere between the Netfix servers and the Comcast system.
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post #597 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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You have to add in the monthly cost of your internet service to evaluate streaming costs against purchase costs (DVD or Blu). I don't stream, so lowly DSL is adequate for my use. I am not on cable either, so no monthly cable fees.

I can buy a lot of DVD / Bluray discs each month for the amount of money that others spend on internet service and cable. Buy a movie, watch the movie, then put it away for 10 years and watch it again.
Hopefully not the entire cost of Internet service though, I get a lot more out of my service than just streaming movies. Otherwise, why not add the cost of owning a car to the price of renting a Redbox movie?

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post #598 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:29 PM
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Hopefully not the entire cost of Internet service though, I get a lot more out of my service than just streaming movies. Otherwise, why not add the cost of owning a car to the price of renting a Redbox movie?

Screw Redbox, and use Netfix by mail. Cost of owning car is not an issue unless you drive to your mailbox.

Anyhow, what else do you do on the internet that requires high speed and high bandwidth?
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post #599 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Screw Redbox, and use Netfix by mail. Cost of owning car is not an issue unless you drive to your mailbox.

Anyhow, what else do you do on the internet that requires high speed and high bandwidth?
Slow internet isn't free... it's just cheaper. I do have my own photography business, so it's true that I pay for more Internet that the average Joe justifies. Fast Internet is a pretty cost-effective luxury IMO, it improves the entire online experience.

I gave up Netflix because of scratched discs, lopsided availability, and the reality that I can't quite predict what I'm going to want to watch next week, and I hate having to pick my evening's entertainment from a small pile of dirty envelopes.

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post #600 of 706 Old 06-18-2014, 06:39 PM
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Screw Redbox, and use Netfix by mail . . .
Anyhow, what else do you do on the internet that requires high speed and high bandwidth?
I use both Netflix and Redbox. There are so many RedBox kiosks around there is one likely within walking distance of your home (I have two) and certainly within biking distance. RedBox keeps you healthy.

Every couple months I download the update maps for my GPS -- it takes 5hr on my 2.8Mbps DSL line. It is the only time I wish I had more bandwidth.

- kelson h

The bitterness of poor quality lasts long after the sweetness of the low price is forgotten . . . life is too short to drink bad wine

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