Giving Up on Blu-Ray: Why I Switched to The Cloud - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickyDeg View Post
They are indeed. A big reason not to give up on discs. A friend of mine just abandoned Blu-ray for streaming cause his wife and kids loved the convenience, which I can understand, but I can tell he's not happy due to him sitting there with a pretty expensive set-up and lossy sound. No good.
I think some formal testing is needed, and please note that compression is not all the same. Done well, compressed audio is indecipherable from uncompressed. I played some of Skyfall in Vudu HDX last night, I've heard lossless audio from the reference scenes (that I use) from that movie on many systems, including one sweet Krell rig and a Keith Yates home theater. The Vudu HDX sound lacks nothing.

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post #182 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 04:55 AM
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ygtbkm I have no idea why you think it's appropriate to make fun of me for having ethics. Keep your criticism to yourself, please.
LOL.
Well. look... having ethics is one thing, but all of a sudden gaining ethics after 10's or 100's of BD's have already been ripped, is quite another. You can hardly blame people for the skepticism. You have broken the law, and the law will not excuse you because you all of a sudden feel a tinge of guilt.

Just curious... have you deleted ALL of your ripped BD's?
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post #183 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 04:57 AM
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. Done well, compressed audio is indecipherable from uncompressed.
You state that as a fact. Where is your proof?
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post #184 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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You state that as a fact. Where is your proof?
It's a well-tested hypothesis. It's also not a winnable argument here on the Internet, where every discussion of audio formats tends to turn into an argument over the validity of test methodologies.

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post #185 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:10 AM
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At least VUDU seems to be cross platform, i was knee deep in iTunes, but I was getting a little fed up with the system. Took a lot for me to give up on the purhcases, but it makes you think twice about being locked into a system.. for this reason, i'd struggle to buy into VUDU. It also makes you realise the pitfalls of DRM coupled with being locked into a system. If the company shuts down, you're tied into a dead system... not so good... With iTunes i was also very device limited.

My not so smart TV was a panasonic flagship VT30, which panasonic basically gave up on us about a year later after i purchased it. If i bought into acetrax, i'd have ended up with a dead company, plus Panasonic decided to abandon us, which means no more "proper" movie streaming service with the smart TV... shocking eh.

Anyway, fingers crossed it doesn't end that way with you. If it does, you may rethink your idea's on ripping blu-rays... it's meant to be going legal to rip movies in the UK... finally, and it's what we should have always been allowed to do in the first place!! Being bought into a system was something i should have been more wary of... i abandoned Sky TV about 4 years ago for that very reason lol.
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post #186 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's a well-tested hypothesis. It's also not a winnable argument here on the Internet, where every discussion of audio formats tends to turn into an argument over the validity of test methodologies.
That's a really brilliant way of admitting it's little more than opinion

You're allowed to have opinion, but if you wish to suggest fact then you really need to back it with proof.

As stated, I can hear the difference. I won't go so far as to say I can hear a difference in high's and lows, but there is DEFINITELY a difference in the quality of the surround and the quality of the dynamic range
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post #187 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:14 AM
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Another topic which I don't believe has been breached in this conversation yet is ISP bandwidth caps.
A buddy at work watches movies from Netflix all the time and got a letter from his ISP that he went over his "cap" for the month.
Cap? Really?
For watching movies?
That's just all kinds of wrong. I don't think this started happening with the fall of Net Neutrality either.
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post #188 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's a well-tested hypothesis. It's also not a winnable argument here on the Internet, where every discussion of audio formats tends to turn into an argument over the validity of test methodologies.
Just because someone doesn't believe in testing (and hence, in many cases, disregarding unquestionable science) does no mean testing should not be included.

I would agree that there are things we hear that science may not yet be able to describe, but in those cases where science clearly states "X" and yet the subjective (only) crowd states that "X" doesn't cover this situation, my response is: "BS" or "snake oil" or ....

I can't respond to the specifics of your example of whether the sound you streamed sounds exactly like the sound of a BD (and to my really tired ears, it may). Never done the direct comparison. But I can say that the few movies I have streamed have a far less tendency to provide the envelopment and impact I get from Bluray.

You are also right that the "science" crowd will probably not go away!!

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post #189 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Electric Wiz View Post
Another topic which I don't believe has been breached in this conversation yet is ISP bandwidth caps.
A buddy at work watches movies from Netflix all the time and got a letter from his ISP that he went over his "cap" for the month.
Cap? Really?
For watching movies?
That's just all kinds of wrong. I don't think this started happening with the fall of Net Neutrality either.
That's a good point. My present ISP doesn't worry too much about caps, but we do have quite a few in our area which do place emphasis on max bytes per month, and if you go over it gets very expensive.
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post #190 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:23 AM - Thread Starter
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At least VUDU seems to be cross platform, i was knee deep in iTunes, but I was getting a little fed up with the system. Took a lot for me to give up on the purhcases, but it makes you think twice about being locked into a system.. for this reason, i'd struggle to buy into VUDU. It also makes you realise the pitfalls of DRM coupled with being locked into a system. If the company shuts down, you're tied into a dead system... not so good... With iTunes i was also very device limited.

My not so smart TV was a panasonic flagship VT30, which panasonic basically gave up on us about a year later after i purchased it. If i bought into acetrax, i'd have ended up with a dead company, plus Panasonic decided to abandon us, which means no more "proper" movie streaming service with the smart TV... shocking eh.

Anyway, fingers crossed it doesn't end that way with you. If it does, you may rethink your idea's on ripping blu-rays... it's meant to be going legal to rip movies in the UK... finally, and it's what we should have always been allowed to do in the first place!! Being bought into a system was something i should have been more wary of... i abandoned Sky TV about 4 years ago for that very reason lol.
If ripping Blu-ray was legal in the US that's what I would do. I would not trust a proprietary service from a TV maker. Vudu was the first company to sell rights to movies and its been doing it for seven years—four of them under Walmart ownership. Walmart does not behave like a typical tech company does—Wal-mart moves slowly and deliberately.

iTunes is a closed system but as a company it's going to be around for a while; Vudu is part of UltraViolet, which provides a safety net. The risk is mitigated.

I value the movie I am watching now and the potential to watch new movies on a whim more than I value what I've watched already.

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post #191 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:24 AM
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But I can say that the few movies I have streamed have a far less tendency to provide the envelopment and impact I get from Bluray.
Good way of putting it. I can't explain exactly why a good dts hd ma track sounds better but it just does. It has a much more defined and deeper impact.
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post #192 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:30 AM
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If ripping Blu-ray was legal in the US that's what I would do. I would not trust a proprietary service from a TV maker. Vudu was the first company to sell rights to movies and its been doing it for seven years—four of them under Walmart ownership. Walmart does not behave like a typical tech company does—Wal-mart moves slowly and deliberately.

iTunes is a closed system but as a company it's going to be around for a while; Vudu is part of UltraViolet, which provides a safety net. The risk is mitigated.

I value the movie I am watching now and the potential to watch new movies on a whim more than I value what I've watched already.
Can you say.... Blockbuster?

In 2004 BB had over 60,000 employees and 9000 stores. They filed for bankruptcy in 2010

There is really no such thing as mitigated risk. The best you can say is that it works at this moment in time
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post #193 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:31 AM
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If ripping Blu-ray was legal in the US that's what I would do. I would not trust a proprietary service from a TV maker. Vudu was the first company to sell rights to movies and its been doing it for seven years—four of them under Walmart ownership. Walmart does not behave like a typical tech company does—Wal-mart moves slowly and deliberately.

iTunes is a closed system but as a company it's going to be around for a while; Vudu is part of UltraViolet, which provides a safety net. The risk is mitigated.

I value the movie I am watching now and the potential to watch new movies on a whim more than I value what I've watched already.
Good point, it takes a special movie to take up my valuable hard disc space

On the audio side of things, I like Netflix audio, but i use a speaker pair and amp/receiver, so surround sound is not important
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post #194 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
Can you say.... Blockbuster?

In 2004 BB had over 60,000 employees and 9000 stores. They filed for bankruptcy in 2010
Yes I can say Blockbuster. Can you say "Walmart (Vudu), Netflix, Amazon and Apple/iTunes put blockbuster out of business?"

Blockbuster's death was the first sign that physical media won't be around forever.

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post #195 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:37 AM
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I don't know if this is technically allowed but you can buy Vudu codes online from various sources. You can get HDX copies of movies to won for 5$ that way.


Do you guys think more people would buy movies this way if owning HDX versions cost only half as much as the blu-ray or less?


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post #196 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:39 AM
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I understand where Mike is coming from and while I am not ready to dump discs in favor of streaming, I once had intended to do the same. Some important points that make streaming ideal for Mike, from my assessment, are that:
  • He rarely re-watches films.
    He has an insanely fast and expensive Internet connection at home.
    He doesn't have a personal vehicle, and lives in a metropolitan area.

I am frugal, so I only buy most BDs when they are under $10, or I buy them at pawn shops or other second-hand stores as long as they are in good condition, including the cases. Storing them takes up room, which I am quickly running out of on my current media racks, but I like having the physical copies. I often like the packaging, particularly for box sets, digibooks or steelbooks. As one might imagine from my screen name, I have numerous animated box sets that have deluxe packaging, inserts, and other extras that make them cool collector's items and fun to sit down and look at or show off. Many of those series are only available on disc, with no option to buy digital copies. For movies, yes. You can find a lot of newer releases on streaming, so if that's what you are into, you can easily make the switch.

Years ago, before I even had an HDTV, I was ready to go disc-less. But now that I have a good set up at home and discs are so affordable, even new, I am in no rush to go streaming. I am concerned about long-term ownership of streaming content, as many have stated. My Internet service is generally reliable, but I don't want to be dependent on it all the time. Plus, as I said, for what I am into at the moment, the content I want isn't always available to stream. In time, that may change.

I don't disagree with Mike. I think he has made the right decision based on his viewing habits. That works for him and I imagine it will soon be "good enough" for many more of us.
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post #197 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:39 AM
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I think Blockbuster put themselves out of business when they wouldn't include online streaming, but it does show if the people in charge don't change with the times, or something better comes along, then anything is vulnerable.
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post #198 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Just because someone doesn't believe in testing (and hence, in many cases, disregarding unquestionable science) does no mean testing should not be included.

I would agree that there are things we hear that science may not yet be able to describe, but in those cases where science clearly states "X" and yet the subjective (only) crowd states that "X" doesn't cover this situation, my response is: "BS" or "snake oil" or ....

I can't respond to the specifics of your example of whether the sound you streamed sounds exactly like the sound of a BD (and to my really tired ears, it may). Never done the direct comparison. But I can say that the few movies I have streamed have a far less tendency to provide the envelopment and impact I get from Bluray.

You are also right that the "science" crowd will probably not go away!!
I never said that the two sound exactly the same. I merely suggest that if level-matched, compressed audio is difficult to identify after a certain bitrate, with MP3 that's roughly 256kbps (stereo). In my Blu-ray vs cloud format comparisons I repeatedly noted that the compressed soundtracks have slightly less impact that the uncompressed version, but that the difference is negligible.

What are you referring to when you say "streamed?" There's a big difference between Netflix and Vudu streaming, in terms of sound and picture quality.

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post #199 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:42 AM
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Yes I can say Blockbuster. Can you say "Walmart (Vudu), Netflix, Amazon and Apple/iTunes put blockbuster out of business?"

Blockbuster's death was the first sign that physical media won't be around forever.
You completely missed the point.
You said the risk is mitigated. It is not. This is little more than your personal opinion. Anything can happen
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post #200 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I think Blockbuster put themselves out of business when they wouldn't include online streaming, but it does show if the people in charge don't change with the times, or something better comes along, then anything is vulnerable.
Well said. Basically, the times they are a changin'.

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post #201 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:48 AM
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I realize I won't be missed as I move on from this thread but yet another thread started to generate page views only. Has AVS changed their comp model? Over the past few weeks we have a LED besting some of the best plasmas made, blu-ray is dying because Sony said so and now this. I am not commenting on the validity of any of these claims, just pointing out that there is little research involved with any of these threads unlike what Scott did when attempting to compare streaming service quality among the big 3.

It is a FACT that for the same amount or less you can purchase the blu-ray and get a digital copy (about half the time you get UV and iTunes) for less than what iTunes or Vudu charges you to stream HD or HDX if you shop for deals or wait for a period of time after a movie is released - but even that is changing - see Jack Ryan. Life of Pi at this time is selling for $4.99 with digital copies included. To the convenience factor - you go online, order the movie and Amazon delivers it to you door in 2 to 4 days (sometimes you even get to stream your purchase in HD using Prime). Movie arrives, punch in the code and then head down to your favorite pawn shop after you have 100 or so laying around and sell them for about $300
Not a bad deal - you make money if you include the cost of the digital movie.

Can't wait to see what Mark's next headline is but I hope it is more along the lines of the thread he started on the MiniDSP nanoAVR - not just something aimed at generating posts and starting arguments among members that are not always civil - see the LED beats Plasma thread. What happen to learning, helping and a little science? That's why I came to AVS years ago and Ralph Potts' great reviews.
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post #202 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic
. Done well, compressed audio is indecipherable from uncompressed.

You state that as a fact. Where is your proof?
While not applicable to the DD+ versus Dolby TrueHD debate, it is most definitely true that compressed audio can be indecipherable from uncompressed. That's the whole point of lossless compression (e.g. FLAC, ALAC, AIFF, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD Master Audio). Are you saying that there is an audible difference between a FLAC file (compressed) and the original PCM code (uncompressed)?
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post #203 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
Can you say.... Blockbuster?

In 2004 BB had over 60,000 employees and 9000 stores. They filed for bankruptcy in 2010

There is really no such thing as mitigated risk. The best you can say is that it works at this moment in time
Blockbuster was in it's death throes well before streaming was widespread. Netflix's rental by mail and it's relatively cheap subscription rate for 3 movies at the time was approximately the cost of renting 3 new releases from Blockbuster.

Looky here!
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post #204 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:51 AM
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Well said. Basically, the times they are a changin'.
Agree completely. The times are changing, and they have always changed. Nothing new here.

We now have quite a few different ways of movie delivery, but contrary to popular belief, the older ones (discs) have not died... and probably won't. They have declined, but that's par for the course as they give up some of the market share to streaming.

Each delivery method has its pros/cons and it's nice to see we now have a rather diversified choice. Would you not agree?
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post #205 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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While not applicable to the DD+ versus Dolby TrueHD debate, it is most definitely true that compressed audio can be indecipherable from uncompressed. That's the whole point of lossless compression (e.g. FLAC, ALAC, AIFF, Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD Master Audio). Are you saying that there is an audible difference between a FLAC file (compressed) and the original PCM code (uncompressed)?
No, I was not even referring to lossless compression, which is just that (although a few quacks thing even that is unacceptable).

My point is that lossy compression becomes indecipherable from lossless at some point, even if mathematically it is not as perfect.

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post #206 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:54 AM
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Blockbuster was in it's death throes well before streaming was widespread. Netflix's rental by mail and it's relatively cheap subscription rate for 3 movies at the time was approximately the cost of renting 3 new releases from Blockbuster.
Oh dear lord... we're missing they point altogether.

Look... company "X" was big yesterday, and now it's not. THAT is the point. There is no "mitigated risk".
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post #207 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Agree completely. The times are changing, and they have always changed. Nothing new here.

We now have quite a few different ways of movie delivery, but contrary to popular belief, the older ones (discs) have not died... and probably won't. They have declined, but that's par for the course as they give up some of the market share to streaming.

Each delivery method has its pros/cons and it's nice to see we now have a rather diversified choice. Would you not agree?
I totally agree, which is why I mentioned that on occasion I will still buy Blu-rays. However, I will not deliberately maintain a growing collection of Blu-rays, nor will I sweat the minor quality differences when I watch a cloud-based format.

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post #208 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:55 AM
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if anyone is looking for digital copy codes, I have close to 800 blurays and have not used any digital copy codes. pm me with a list and offer and I'll see what I can do to help you discless guys.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by Brian Hampton 

Quote:Originally Posted by imagic 


Some say the audio makes a big difference, I have yet to hear it. The audio from iTunes, Vudu, Amazon, etc. is just about identical to DVD audio. Dolby Digital + on Vudu goes up to 7.1 channels.


If you can't hear the difference you're practically deaf...have that checked. Hearing aid tech is good now.

I think more than anything you are constantly trying to convice yourself this was a good idea.

And, so long as that works, more power to ya.


Haha. I guess a disproportionate number of practicallying deaf people are responsible for the results of numerous tests that show how hard it is to hear the difference between 256 kbps or 320 kbps compression vs. CD.
On an mp3 256kbit to 320kbit is not very dramatic. As both are already high quality. So comparing either of them to CD doesn't make sense to me. You would have to listen to passages where there was enough dynamic/high end detail where you could hear it. And on a system which is capable of really bringing it out. Most of todays music is over compressed and not a lot of dynamic range so I doubt most would notice any of the subtle details. They should do these type of comparisons on a pair of Stax electrostatic headphones.

128kbit however ... is a big difference. And would be easily noticable to most on just about anything.

It's pretty easy to hear the audio difference between a DVD with DD and HD audio from BR if you have a nice system. Probably not so much on a cheapy/improperly setup one.

I record audio in my studio at 24bit @ 44khz,96khz and 192khz. On my near field monitors you can hear 44khz to 96khz easily with dynamic instruments like the drums. But 96khz to 192khz; not so much; audible yes but the it's more subtle differences. Keep in mind this is all uncompressed.

Anyone who has an ear will immediately be able to hear DD 5.1 and it's compression vs a BR disc.

I too was fully against streaming being a "purist". Then I finally actually tried it and realized it's very nice to have. The quality is not BR by any stretch; at least with Netflix and Amazon. Actually i find a lot of the time online streaming is better quality than what most cable/satellite providers give on their "HD" channels for the same movie. The big losses are in the audio, color depth and high motion video. H.265 is suppose to help address some of these issues.

Hopefully google fiber does build out near us this year and our neighborhood has enough "signups". Then i won't have to worry about bandwidth for streaming for awhile At least between my house and the backbone.

EDITED

-SiGGy

Last edited by SiGGy; 06-12-2014 at 06:30 AM.
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post #210 of 706 Old 06-12-2014, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
Oh dear lord... we're missing they point altogether.

Look... company "X" was big yesterday, and now it's not. THAT is the point. There is no "mitigated risk".
Right, for example there is no guarantee that anyone will make 120mm disc players in the future, just like no one makes LaserDisc players anymore; even though LD holds the record for most titles on a disc-based format.

Life is full of risks. I don't live my life in fear of those risks.

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