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Old 07-01-2014, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
TOTAL 100% rubbish. I'll bet you're one of those believers in monster cables too.

ONCE AGAIN
There are no "strict" guide lines for the install of cat cable. There is a GENERAL radius rule for GENERAL cables and it has more to do with the physical characteristics of wire inside a sheathing.
No I'm a network engineer that has troubleshot and isolated hundreds of miles of bad cable runs. My suggestion is you read up on how Cat 5 unshielded UTP works then report back.

Last edited by FX4; 07-01-2014 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by trab37 View Post
This is what I was aiming at, though it doesn't necessarily need to be a huge house or huge Crestron system to benefit from commercial equipment. My house is 3,000 sq. ft., I don't consider that to be huge, but I have installed a decent sized automation system and the fios router won't handle it. Pakedge and Luxul aren't terribly expensive and they will get the job done. It's pretty rare that an expensive Cisco, Dell or HP switch is required. I agree about the ASUS gear, I like all their stuff. I have a client using the RT-AC68U and it works really well, he has one as a router and two more as access points. I would still, as a rule, bypass an ISP router. Like I said, this isn't universal, just good practice, to each his own.
You're talking about two different things here. You can't say that all consumer gear is junk just because the FIOS router is a POS. I completely agree with not using ISP routers. It's easy on cable, since the default is a separate modem and router. It's a little harder on FIOS, and DSLReports has a good guide on all the configuration options. Ideally, you run CAT-6 from the ONT to the router location, and another CAT-6 back to the network core (if in a different location from the router) and avoid the FIOS router entirely. If you have TiVos, you don't even need to bridge over to MoCA, but you will if you're using their crappy STBs. Yeah, that's another one, don't use cable company STBs, as they also suck. With U-Verse you're stuck with AT&T's crappy router and STBs, but most advanced users wouldn't be using U-Verse in the first place...

Even a large house with a fairly large network with several dozen devices and 75/35 FIOS service and a whole bunch of heavy users should be just fine with an ASUS RT-N68U. I think the harder part is Wifi APs, as there is no good consumer-friendly system out there for doing whole-house coverage with multiple APs on a wired backbone and AP roaming, and the 5ghz signals don't carry very far.

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I would imagine any switch that supports VLAN/QoS would work for this, I have just found it easier to keep them separate and I agree that U-Verse is a crappy service, not the worst but not far from it. I have run into limitations with them when watching HD from more than 4 cable boxes at once, it basically hijacked one of the other boxes. I tried to talk the client out of having 8 cable boxes since they were all in a centralized rack, but no dice.
Yes, in theory. They strongly recommend the Netgear switches for an Ethernet installation though, since they are known to work. Yeah, U-Verse is a crippled system from the start. Not only is the internet slow, but the picture quality is pretty bad, and you can't own your own gear like with cable or FIOS. And then there's the 4 channel limit. I only have 4 tuners, but I like the fact that I could add 4 or 6 more whenever I want by buying another TiVo, up to 60 total tuners. The one redeeming value is the incredible HD channel selection since their extremely limited last-mile bandwidth doesn't have any practical limit for the number of total channels...

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This is good advice all around. I agree with you on most points here.
Thanks!
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
No I'm a network engineer that has troubleshot and isolated hundreds of miles of bad of bad cable runs. My suggestion is you read up on how Cat 5 unshielded UTP works then report back.
And I'm the president of the USA. See how easy that works?
What you need to do is provide proof and so far no one here has done any of that.

Crosstalk has to do with how the pairs are twisted:

Quote:
Each of the four pairs in a Cat 5 cable has differing precise number of twists per metre to minimize crosstalk between the pairs. Although cable assemblies containing 4 pairs are common, Category 5 is not limited to 4 pairs. Backbone applications involve using up to 100 pairs.[4] This use of balanced lines helps preserve a high signal-to-noise ratio despite interference from both external sources and crosstalk from other pairs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable

Bending a cable (ANY cable) beyond 4 times its diameter is about avoiding PHYSICAL damage and stress to the wire inside the sheathing.


This bend radius thing has gotten a little out of hand. No one here is suggesting insane bend radius's is done and should be done.

The original argument was whether a cat cable is bent too far if flowing through a 1/2 inch channel into another 1/2 inch channel 90 degrees from the first... The answer to that is NO

If we follow the rule:
Quote:
Make only gradual bends in the cable where necessary to maintain the minimum bend radius of 4 times the cable diameter or approximately 1" radius (about the roundness of a half-dollar).
A cat 5 cable fits in that channel fine without exceeding the bend radius.

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Old 07-01-2014, 04:43 PM
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When i built my house in 2007 i made it all wireless. It sound's good, but i had to run four miles of wire to get the wireless i wanted. I used CAT5e to place wireless repeaters in almost every room, front porch, back porch, deck, patio, even the pool mechanical room. I want't 4 to 5 bars of 360 wireless no matter were i was standing on my property. I tried two different wireless HDMI transmitters, and both would not cover the distance so i used HDMI over CAT5e to get the signal to the deck and patio/pool area. While i was at it i dropped a wall plate for rj45 plugs into the media room and back porch. If i had to do it again, i would just run a single rj45 ethernet jack next to the outside facing windows, away from doors in every room. "IF" There is plenty of nifty ways to hide wire runs available now.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
You're talking about two different things here. You can't say that all consumer gear is junk just because the FIOS router is a POS. I completely agree with not using ISP routers. It's easy on cable, since the default is a separate modem and router. It's a little harder on FIOS, and DSLReports has a good guide on all the configuration options. Ideally, you run CAT-6 from the ONT to the router location, and another CAT-6 back to the network core (if in a different location from the router) and avoid the FIOS router entirely. If you have TiVos, you don't even need to bridge over to MoCA, but you will if you're using their crappy STBs. Yeah, that's another one, don't use cable company STBs, as they also suck. With U-Verse you're stuck with AT&T's crappy router and STBs, but most advanced users wouldn't be using U-Verse in the first place...

Even a large house with a fairly large network with several dozen devices and 75/35 FIOS service and a whole bunch of heavy users should be just fine with an ASUS RT-N68U. I think the harder part is Wifi APs, as there is no good consumer-friendly system out there for doing whole-house coverage with multiple APs on a wired backbone and AP roaming, and the 5ghz signals don't carry very far.
I was not aware that you could bypass the fios router entirely, I was under the impression that it needed to be in the signal chain. Are you saying that you can run CAT6 directly from the ONT to a router of your choice? All of my equipment is in the same location, but I leave the fios router in the wiring panel with the coax splitter and such becuase I don't use it except as a means to feed internet to my router. For that matter the Apple Airport Extreme is a very nice router as well, though it lacks a lot of features I use like a built-in VPN server. The ASUS works well because it has more memory and processing power and will work very well in many installations, it is not my preferred router though. Pakedge makes a pretty decent wireless management system, though it is not accessible to consumers directly and I wouldn't say its configuration is consumer-friendly.
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Old 07-01-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
And I'm the president of the USA. See how easy that works?
What you need to do is provide proof and so far no one here has done any of that.
Well that's just ridiculous, you can't be the President of the USA, you're from Canada.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:08 PM
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Well that's just ridiculous, you can't be the President of the USA, you're from Canada.


The point is missed though..... Anybody can say anything on the web. I'm an Engineer too (really).
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
And I'm the president of the USA. See how easy that works?
What you need to do is provide proof and so far no one here has done any of that.
Well it sounds to me like you are convinced you are right and do not want to do a little reading. Just don't go wasting other people's money with bad advice because what you are stating in a prior post will ruin Cat 5/6 UTP by disrupting the twist rate between wire pairs and cause cross talk problems which in turn will result in data corruption.

In case the mood strikes you:
http://www.lanshack.com/cat5e-tutorial.aspx - simple version
http://www.nag.ru/goodies/tia/TIA-EIA-568-B.1.pdf - The actual standard for installing cable.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post


The point is missed though..... Anybody can say anything on the web. I'm an Engineer too (really).
And almost any job can be titled "Engineer", I am an automation engineer by title though my degree is not in engineering, but I did start out as a EE major. Most of my friends are actual engineers, so I must be the Wolowitz of the group.

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Old 07-01-2014, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
In case the mood strikes you:
http://www.lanshack.com/cat5e-tutorial.aspx - simple version
http://www.nag.ru/goodies/tia/TIA-EIA-568-B.1.pdf - The actual standard for installing cable.
None of those say anything about increased crosstalk on an increased radius bend. In FACT they say exactly what I have been trying to tell you. The radius bend has to do with stress on the cable (ANY cable).
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:37 PM
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And almost any job can be titled "Engineer", I am an automation engineer by title though my degree is not in engineering, but I did start out as a EE major. Most of my friends are actual engineers, so I must be the Wolowitz of the group.
That's okay. I know a lot of (certified) Engineers who can't even boil water.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:39 PM
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And almost any job can be titled "Engineer", I am an automation engineer by title though my degree is not in engineering, but I did start out as a EE major. Most of my friends are actual engineers, so I must be the Wolowitz of the group.
I briefly thought about posting my credentials then I thought why? The people in this thread that are professionals know what I am stating is accurate information. Strangely enough they are also giving out good information free of charge. And, no skin off my back. Do it right, do it wrong I don't care. I'll bet you are the same guys on other forums hollering something is a piece of junk when you just didn't set it up correctly, installed it wrong, whatever. I and others have given out good information in this thread. Other people are shooting from the hip. Too bad the OP has to sort through the chaff.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
That's okay. I know a lot of (certified) Engineers who can't even boil water.
I had a certified electrical engineer install some light control switches for me, when you turn them off they dim. I think the problem was showing him my "improvised" flood lamp powered by a 6kw bulb, he couldn't see for the rest of the day, or so he said.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
I and others have given out good information in this thread. .
You have done little more than offer out what anybody else has (including myself)... offered your PERSONAL opinion, and that's fine.... nothing wrong with that, but don't make attempts to turn it into fact without the proof. I asked you to validate your claim above and you so far have not. Instead you keep rattling some notion that you are a professional

Your ideas (and mine) are just that... IDEAS. The OP will decide what is best for his/her circumstance. Please allow the OP that chance without all the saber rattling.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
I briefly thought about posting my credentials then I thought why? The people in this thread that are professionals know what I am stating is accurate information. Strangely enough they are also giving out good information free of charge. And, no skin off my back. Do it right, do it wrong I don't care. I'll bet you are the same guys on other forums hollering something is a piece of junk when you just didn't set it up correctly, installed it wrong, whatever. I and others have given out good information in this thread. Other people are shooting from the hip. Too bad the OP has to sort through the chaff.
This is the wrong form to get paid information on. We like it free.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by FX4 View Post
I briefly thought about posting my credentials then I thought why? The people in this thread that are professionals know what I am stating is accurate information. Strangely enough they are also giving out good information free of charge. And, no skin off my back. Do it right, do it wrong I don't care. I'll bet you are the same guys on other forums hollering something is a piece of junk when you just didn't set it up correctly, installed it wrong, whatever. I and others have given out good information in this thread. Other people are shooting from the hip. Too bad the OP has to sort through the chaff.
I was merely trying to inject some humor into a thread that has become way more contentious than it needs to be, a point I made several posts back. In no way was I attempting to invalidate your credentials, in fact, if you read through I have been agreeing with you the whole time. I am a professional and was giving sound advice from the start based on a decade of experience. I will only call something a piece of junk when I have proven it to be a piece of junk. There is no shooting from the hip here, I am here to help and to learn, though as I have mentioned before this thread has become far from helpful to the OP.
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Old 07-01-2014, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
None of those say anything about increased crosstalk on an increased radius bend. In FACT they say exactly what I have been trying to tell you. The radius bend has to do with stress on the cable (ANY cable).
Still spouting bad advice.

How do you explain away the fact that the minimum bend radius for Cat 6 is more gentle than for Cat 5e?

Craig
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:05 PM
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Still spouting bad advice.

How do you explain away the fact that the minimum bend radius for Cat 6 is more gentle than for Cat 5e?

Craig
It's not different at all. It's EXACTLY the same:
Quote:
Category 6 and 6a cable must be properly installed and terminated to meet specifications. The cable must not be kinked or bent too tightly (the bend radius should be at least four times the outer diameter of the cable[7]).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat6#Installation_caveats

It's the same for any cable..... 4x the outer diameter of the cable.
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Old 07-02-2014, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
When i built my house in 2007 i made it all wireless. It sound's good, but i had to run four miles of wire to get the wireless i wanted. I used CAT5e to place wireless repeaters in almost every room, front porch, back porch, deck, patio, even the pool mechanical room. I want't 4 to 5 bars of 360 wireless no matter were i was standing on my property. I tried two different wireless HDMI transmitters, and both would not cover the distance so i used HDMI over CAT5e to get the signal to the deck and patio/pool area. While i was at it i dropped a wall plate for rj45 plugs into the media room and back porch. If i had to do it again, i would just run a single rj45 ethernet jack next to the outside facing windows, away from doors in every room. "IF" There is plenty of nifty ways to hide wire runs available now.
What wireless system are you using to do that? That's also an absurd amount of Wifi access points... even large houses usually only need a couple...

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I was not aware that you could bypass the fios router entirely, I was under the impression that it needed to be in the signal chain. Are you saying that you can run CAT6 directly from the ONT to a router of your choice? All of my equipment is in the same location, but I leave the fios router in the wiring panel with the coax splitter and such becuase I don't use it except as a means to feed internet to my router. For that matter the Apple Airport Extreme is a very nice router as well, though it lacks a lot of features I use like a built-in VPN server. The ASUS works well because it has more memory and processing power and will work very well in many installations, it is not my preferred router though. Pakedge makes a pretty decent wireless management system, though it is not accessible to consumers directly and I wouldn't say its configuration is consumer-friendly.
Check out the DSLR write-up. There are well over a half-dozen different variations on hookups with FIOS with various combinations of MoCA LAN, MoCA WAN, and Ethernet. The FIOS router will work with either Ethernet or MoCA (only on the regular consumer plans, the 150mbps(?) and 500mbps plans require Ethernet), a consumer router obviously can only work on Ethernet. Now they are forcing you to buy or rent their crappy router, but nothing stops you from buying their router, setting it up once with it, and when switching over to your own router, as long as you have Ethernet enabled on the ONT. If I end up living in a FIOS area, I'm going to do CAT-6 to my router location with an ASUS RT-AC87U or RT-AC3200U...

Pakedge looks like some neat stuff, but way more expensive and complicated than even Ubiquiti UniFi, which is the closest thing I've seen to a Wifi system that would work in a residential application...
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Old 07-02-2014, 05:27 PM
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I mostly agree with this, but streaming HD video over wireless can still be problematic so it's best to have at least one drop per room, two if you want the convenience of being able to rearrange the room without wires all over the place. Gaming is another area wear hardwired still wins but yeah there is honestly no need for multiple runs to each room other than the convenience of being able to rearrange the room as desired. And you are absolutely correct when you say a commercial business networks load looks nothing like a home networks load. Really other than basic topology it's a completely different thing.
Agreed. I like the poster you replied to planned big then scaled back big time.

Each potential tv location is gettin 2 cat 5 1 cat 6 and one rg6.

Each room is getting 2 more cat5 an another suitable location for phone, wired Ethernet or something else.

A few rg6 for subs and one set of rca for a turntable.

12/4 for speakers and some random cat locations for possible cameras touchscreen waps etc.

Realised that with robust WiFi I rarely plug the laptop into the lan as even movies move quickly from server to laptop.

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Old 07-02-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Pakedge looks like some neat stuff, but way more expensive and complicated than even Ubiquiti UniFi, which is the closest thing I've seen to a Wifi system that would work in a residential application...
Check out the ruckus gear.

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Old 07-02-2014, 08:00 PM
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Check out the ruckus gear.

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Their stuff is sick, but way beyond reasonable for a residential use. Cisco stuff is top notch, but again, way beyond the price range and complexity for a home setup. My school had Cisco stuff, and even 5-6 years ago, it was some of the fastest, most solid connectivity I've ever used. It makes even good consumer Wifi gear look like total crap.

As for wiring, no need to differentiate between CAT-5e and CAT-6. Nothing today needs more than 5e, but for futureproofing, and with a low difference in cost, everything wired into new construction or a major remodel should be done at CAT-6. Probably anything for that matter, as it's not worth the hassle of fishing wire again if something down the road needs CAT-6.

You could get away with a single CAT cable and a single RG-6 to each location if you were really going bare minimum, but if you're doing multiple CAT cables, you really need to go to multiple RG-6s to match. That way, if you want cable internet and satellite TV, or cable everything and OTA or something like that, you have two RG-6 cables to work with...
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Old 07-02-2014, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Their stuff is sick, but way beyond reasonable for a residential use. Cisco stuff is top notch, but again, way beyond the price range and complexity for a home setup. My school had Cisco stuff, and even 5-6 years ago, it was some of the fastest, most solid connectivity I've ever used. It makes even good consumer Wifi gear look like total crap.
This is true, I am finding the Apple Airport Extreme used for WiFi, NAT and DHCP (between the CM and the Switch) does an excellent job. I may put another Airport Express in when I move but I will see what the coverage at the corners is like first.
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As for wiring, no need to differentiate between CAT-5e and CAT-6. Nothing today needs more than 5e, but for futureproofing, and with a low difference in cost, everything wired into new construction or a major remodel should be done at CAT-6. Probably anything for that matter, as it's not worth the hassle of fishing wire again if something down the road needs CAT-6.
Exactly, the only reason that is there is for HDMI Base T and enhancements to that for 2k 4k etc over time.
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You could get away with a single CAT cable and a single RG-6 to each location if you were really going bare minimum, but if you're doing multiple CAT cables, you really need to go to multiple RG-6s to match. That way, if you want cable internet and satellite TV, or cable everything and OTA or something like that, you have two RG-6 cables to work with...
The RG6 is not for me, I am distributing video likely additional TVs may end up with a Tivo Mini behind them plugged into the Cat5. The RG6 is so any future owner can string cable boxes around the house like a 'normal' person. While figuring out this DMX lighting (well not much to figure out, you press the lightswitch and it works).
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Old 07-03-2014, 04:40 PM
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This is true, I am finding the Apple Airport Extreme used for WiFi, NAT and DHCP (between the CM and the Switch) does an excellent job. I may put another Airport Express in when I move but I will see what the coverage at the corners is like first.
I've heard good things about the Airport hardware, but using Apple network gear that doesn't have a normal web interface just seems really bad to me. So I stick to the standardized stuff, even though I have a mix of Mac/Win and Android/iOS.

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Exactly, the only reason that is there is for HDMI Base T and enhancements to that for 2k 4k etc over time.
We have 2k now, but good point on 4k.

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Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
The RG6 is not for me, I am distributing video likely additional TVs may end up with a Tivo Mini behind them plugged into the Cat5. The RG6 is so any future owner can string cable boxes around the house like a 'normal' person. While figuring out this DMX lighting (well not much to figure out, you press the lightswitch and it works).
You still may want some more RG6 at major TV locations, like where you have the Roamio/Premiere that serves the Minis if you also want OTA in addition to cable/FIOS or something.
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Old 07-04-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
You still may want some more RG6 at major TV locations, like where you have the Roamio/Premiere that serves the Minis if you also want OTA in addition to cable/FIOS or something.
That's in the rack that has two runs in one for catv and one for an aerial.

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Old 07-06-2014, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
That's in the rack that has two runs in one for catv and one for an aerial.

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What about the living room/family room?
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Old 08-08-2014, 02:42 PM
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I am not sure if this was answered in sea of posts here so I thought I would answer it just in case I missed it.

You CAN eliminate the FIOS Router only if you don't have FIOS TV OR you have your own DVR like TIVO otherwise you will NOT get the guide or VOD.

I have see that there is a way put your FIOS Router in "Bridge" mode if you want to use your own router. I know there are some people that have done it successfully but I never bothered trying it.

I have FIOS triple play and use my own firewall / wireless. I just set up my Firewall as the DMZ host in the FIOS Router and Disable their wireless and it has been very, very reliable with the exception of 3 different AC Adapters failing on me over the years. They finally replaced the router with a newer one that has been running for over 2 years without an issue **Knock on Wood** =)

Oh I should also mention that most FIOS Installs use the Coax Connection to the FIOS Router, if this is the case and you want to use your own router you will need to contact them to have them switch it to Ethernet.

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Originally Posted by trab37 View Post
I was not aware that you could bypass the fios router entirely, I was under the impression that it needed to be in the signal chain. Are you saying that you can run CAT6 directly from the ONT to a router of your choice? All of my equipment is in the same location, but I leave the fios router in the wiring panel with the coax splitter and such becuase I don't use it except as a means to feed internet to my router. For that matter the Apple Airport Extreme is a very nice router as well, though it lacks a lot of features I use like a built-in VPN server. The ASUS works well because it has more memory and processing power and will work very well in many installations, it is not my preferred router though. Pakedge makes a pretty decent wireless management system, though it is not accessible to consumers directly and I wouldn't say its configuration is consumer-friendly.
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Old 08-08-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by funhouse69 View Post
You CAN eliminate the FIOS Router only if you don't have FIOS TV OR you have your own DVR like TIVO otherwise you will NOT get the guide or VOD.

I have see that there is a way put your FIOS Router in "Bridge" mode if you want to use your own router. I know there are some people that have done it successfully but I never bothered trying it.

Oh I should also mention that most FIOS Installs use the Coax Connection to the FIOS Router, if this is the case and you want to use your own router you will need to contact them to have them switch it to Ethernet.
That is the way I've always understood it, that the VOD features will be eliminated without their router; I don't put their router in bridged mode for the same reason. I have switched them from coax to ethernet without having to call them. The ports should both be live inside the ONT, its just a matter of getting a new line to them. The new routers are so much better than the old ones, plus all GigE ports. I have had several clients with bad power supplies or just failed routers in the past, such a pain, but not so much any more.
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Old 08-08-2014, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by trab37 View Post
That is the way I've always understood it, that the VOD features will be eliminated without their router; I don't put their router in bridged mode for the same reason. I have switched them from coax to ethernet without having to call them. The ports should both be live inside the ONT, its just a matter of getting a new line to them. The new routers are so much better than the old ones, plus all GigE ports. I have had several clients with bad power supplies or just failed routers in the past, such a pain, but not so much any more.
Again I've never bothered to try and put mine in Bridge Mode but can understand how some people would want to do it especially if they are running in to some Double NAT issues.

Apparently in bridged mode you can still get your guide / VOD which is why people are doing it and not removing the router in the first place. Here is the link if anyone is interested in giving it a try.

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r176...network-bridge

I agree the new routers are so much better but need a firmware upgrade since the Heart Bleed / Open SSL issue broke their Dynamic DNS functionality.
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Old 08-09-2014, 05:09 PM
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Here is a link to my 35 run Cat 6 set up. I had posted this on the HTPC forum for inputs and this is what I ended up doing.

Link

It's working very well. I even have 2 drops in my formal dining room.....just in case my Nestor Class 5 needs an update and Verizon is still throttling 10G LTE bandwidth. You gotz to be prepared.
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