The Grand Budapest Hotel: Blu-ray vs. Vudu vs. iTunes vs. Amazon - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 73 Old 07-13-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
Streaming already dominates the movie market, but Blu-ray isn't going away. For rentals, streaming is great, as it has a whole 24-hour ecosystem lock-in, but buying movies through streaming services has a permanent ecosystem lock-in... People, Americans especially, seem to like to put things on their shelves and keep them in a collection. While streaming is taking over the market and will continue to do so, there is still a segment of the market that wants something to own and put on their shelf. Although this thread is about quality, the quality is effectively the same on all but the largest screens, and since 99% of the population doesn't have 100"+ screens, that's irrelevant to the market, and 99% of the market won't make a decision based on highly technical differences in the way the movies are compressed for Blu-ray vs. HDX or iTunes or Amazon that they don't understand anyways.
I tend to agree, the threshold for being able to fully appreciate the difference between a good-quality HD stream or download and Blu-ray requires an investment in terms of time and equipment to properly appreciate, an investment most people are not going to make. On the other hand, I can empathize with AVS members who, after making that investment, think it's insane to trade off any quality whatsoever. That's the difference between watching TV and an AV hobby.

That said, I thought upgrading to an F8500, and having an AX800U right next to it, would cast a harsher light on the streaming formats. However, what happened was more complex than that. It turns out that only overly-compressed streams look worse when viewed on a reference-quality display, whereas good quality streams usually look even better on a reference display.
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Last edited by imagic; 07-19-2014 at 07:44 AM.
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post #62 of 73 Old 07-13-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I tend to agree, the threshold for being able to fully appreciate the difference between a good-quality HD stream or download and Blu-ray requires an investment in terms of time and equipment to properly appreciate, an investment most people are not going to make. On the other hand, I can empathize with AVS members who, after making that investment, think it's insane to trade of any quality whatsoever. That's the difference between watching TV and an AV hobby.

That said, I thought upgrading to an F8500, and having an AX800U right next to it, would cast a harsher light on the streaming formats. However, what happened was more complex than that. It turns out that only overly-compressed streams look worse when viewed on a reference-quality display, whereas good quality streams usually look even better on a reference display.
But to look at what's going to be available in the future, you have to look at the market as a whole. The market as a whole has mostly 50-70" TVs where there is no difference in quality between HDX, iTunes, and Blu-Ray. The average viewer doesn't have a 120" projection screen in their basement. With that audience driving the market, quality doesn't matter, but ownership, permanence, access, and the ability to put their collection on a shelf does. And that's why Blu-Ray will be around for a while for the ownership segment of the market, while streaming will take the rental side. And then there's UV, which doesn't fit in the mold of anything, and seems like more of a gimmick than anything else, even though it's kind of cool from a technological perspective. I guess I could see kids streaming it to their room or even at college if they have the family UV account or whatever, but I don't see UV being a driving force behind anything.

And as an aside from the market, even if you have a 120" screen, and maybe can make out a subtle difference between HDX or iTunes and Blu-Ray, streaming 1080p is still going to look far better than the content coming in even via a good provider like FIOS or DirecTV, so not everything can be perfect all the time (unless you live in Kansas city and have Google Fiber maybe).
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post #63 of 73 Old 07-16-2014, 07:52 AM
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re: streaming. i do think that all of the current streamers are missing a huge opportunity to create value that Blu-Ray just can't. while blu-ray pretends to have an ever evolving revision... it will take more capacity and new codecs to stream better quality.

here's just a few examples:
-Allow users to adjust bitrate. If they have download speeds greater than 50Megabits for example, why not offer the full blu-ray bitrate?
-With great download stream, users can choose to upgrade to higher color depth packages like XYZ color space ;P
-3D?
-Test out 4k, 8k, 16k in XYZ and really saturate the pipe.
-Offer Atmos (i think this is really in the works) or DTS MDA equivalent
-Replicate the entire disc experience completely including those stupid interactive games

that way it can replace and even better the discs. instead... streamers are just treated like a 'bonus'. it can be so much more! youtube is a great illustration of this principle. they have pretty much all of this except the surround sound schema and higher color depth

to the edge of eternity and depth of infinity, stupidity knows no bound.
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post #64 of 73 Old 07-16-2014, 08:03 AM
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-Allow users to adjust bitrate. If they have download speeds greater than 50Megabits for example, why not offer the full blu-ray bitrate?
traffic cost money the normal user don't understand how this works.
and each change in kbit needs a hole new encode.

Quote:
-With great download stream, users can choose to upgrade to higher color depth packages like XYZ color space ;P
you need adisplay that can show this colorspace (i'm pretty sure no payable display can this ...) and even more important you need to switch from bt 709 to this colorspace and you need a calibration for both. you are aware you need a higher bit deep or you run in terrible banding problems so you need a pc because no tv can decode 10bit h264 or something like that.
and you need a source with this colorspace first...
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post #65 of 73 Old 07-19-2014, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
re: streaming. i do think that all of the current streamers are missing a huge opportunity to create value that Blu-Ray just can't. while blu-ray pretends to have an ever evolving revision... it will take more capacity and new codecs to stream better quality.

here's just a few examples:
-Allow users to adjust bitrate. If they have download speeds greater than 50Megabits for example, why not offer the full blu-ray bitrate?
-With great download stream, users can choose to upgrade to higher color depth packages like XYZ color space ;P
-3D?
-Test out 4k, 8k, 16k in XYZ and really saturate the pipe.
-Offer Atmos (i think this is really in the works) or DTS MDA equivalent
-Replicate the entire disc experience completely including those stupid interactive games

that way it can replace and even better the discs. instead... streamers are just treated like a 'bonus'. it can be so much more! youtube is a great illustration of this principle. they have pretty much all of this except the surround sound schema and higher color depth
1. Tiny target market.

2. Way too much bandwidth.
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post #66 of 73 Old 07-24-2014, 09:04 PM
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if you build it they will come
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post #67 of 73 Old 07-26-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by JediFonger View Post
if you build it they will come
Not in that case. Not in numbers that make it worthwhile, especially given the extra cost and bandwidth requirements involved...
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post #68 of 73 Old 07-27-2014, 02:22 AM
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Interesting about the Amazon results, those of us with Tivo's can download from Amazon in 1080P and if you also have an Apple TV that gives you two downloadable options without having to deal with adaptive streaming or PC's.

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post #69 of 73 Old 07-27-2014, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
But to look at what's going to be available in the future, you have to look at the market as a whole. The market as a whole has mostly 50-70" TVs where there is no difference in quality between HDX, iTunes, and Blu-Ray. The average viewer doesn't have a 120" projection screen in their basement. With that audience driving the market, quality doesn't matter, but ownership, permanence, access, and the ability to put their collection on a shelf does. And that's why Blu-Ray will be around for a while for the ownership segment of the market, while streaming will take the rental side. And then there's UV, which doesn't fit in the mold of anything, and seems like more of a gimmick than anything else, even though it's kind of cool from a technological perspective. I guess I could see kids streaming it to their room or even at college if they have the family UV account or whatever, but I don't see UV being a driving force behind anything.

And as an aside from the market, even if you have a 120" screen, and maybe can make out a subtle difference between HDX or iTunes and Blu-Ray, streaming 1080p is still going to look far better than the content coming in even via a good provider like FIOS or DirecTV, so not everything can be perfect all the time (unless you live in Kansas city and have Google Fiber maybe).
Don't get hung up on resolution vs. size. There are many subtle things that make a blu ray better that people will see added the all together even when others may claim it isn't there.
Those without the cheap sets will see a difference.

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post #70 of 73 Old 07-27-2014, 01:18 PM
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Don't get hung up on resolution vs. size. There are many subtle things that make a blu ray better that people will see added the all together even when others may claim it isn't there.
Those without the cheap sets will see a difference.
It's true that you can have a giant screen that's bad and won't show off a Blu-ray, but no screen, no matter how good, is going to show any extra quality on a Blu-ray over HDX or iTunes on a 50" or 60" or 70" TV...
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post #71 of 73 Old 07-27-2014, 02:57 PM
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It's true that you can have a giant screen that's bad and won't show off a Blu-ray, but no screen, no matter how good, is going to show any extra quality on a Blu-ray over HDX or iTunes on a 50" or 60" or 70" TV...
have you even looked at the picture?
there is no way you can't see that BD is way superior over HDX in this case...
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post #72 of 73 Old 07-28-2014, 05:46 PM
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have you even looked at the picture?
there is no way you can't see that BD is way superior over HDX in this case...
Yes, I have. There is no way that a normal human is going to see the difference sitting 6' away from a 60" TV (THX recommended seating distance).
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post #73 of 73 Old 07-29-2014, 02:36 AM
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sorry but at least i can easily do this.
a red background or a orange one that a difference you have to see.
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