Sony FMP-X10 owners thread - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post
In my experience the difference is big enough to show up in a double blind test at the correct seating distance.

This is from watching trailers for both Total Recall and After Earth back to back with their Blu-ray counterparts. Interestingly enough there was just about zero difference in the scene in question between the "normal" and the "Mastered in 4k" Blu-ray version of Total Recall but a substantial difference to the 4k version. This was at about 13ft away from a close to 12ft wide screen.

Of course the ultimate test would be to output the same file once in 4k and once in 1080p - I predict that doing that would show a substantially smaller difference, especially if the color stays at full resolution.
What I'm most curious about is the difference between Netflix 4K and Blu-ray. I have noticed that 720p Netflix or Sat/Cable is about equal to upscaled DVD, while 1080p Netflix/Vudu HDX/Sat/cable is better than DVD but not as good as Blu-ray. If Netflix 4K is equal to Blu-ray (or even better in some cases) then that will make streaming a very interesting option when more content arrives on it.
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post #392 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ggw2000 View Post
My X10 arrived today from Crutchfield and will probably hook it up today. But I have two questions as far as procedure if I can get some help.

1. I do not have a SEN or 4K Unlimited account (not even sure which of these it would be) and need to know where do I go to get one setup before plugging in
X10? Do I set one up using my computer? If so, what is the website that I need to go to in order to create the account?

2. I seen that people said that even though these short clips, etc. are already on the HDD that you have to go to the "store" and click "buy"? How the heck do you know
what ones are free if they don't say so? Also after clicking buy on anything is there a confirmation screen before they charge you?

If someone would explain to me this procedure stuff I would greatly appreciate it!!

Thanks, Gerry
Easier to set up the account on a pc first, arrange payment option for future buys etc.

http://www.sonyentertainmentnetwork.com/home/

In the menu for selections it will say "free" if it is.
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post #393 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Lanky View Post
Just a heads-up to those that ordered from Best Buy- I pre-ordered back in June and was given a release date of 8/24. I just received an e-mail that the release date was revised to today. I logged into my account, and my order has moved from "Payment Validated" into "Preparing Order"
nice, that is good to hear. On a side note, I wonder if I could get bestbuy to let me put the sony demos on a PC and then on my USB drive.
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post #394 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mattopotamus View Post
It is all self explanatory and will make sense once it is plugged in. Once you go to the store it will direct you to go to a website to create a SEN account. You have to do it from a PC/phone/tablet.
Sorry for the panic attack .. Got the SEN account setup and went through the initial setup on X10. Viewed a few free things and they were nice. Played a little bit of HOCs season 2 episode 1.
Found it funny the they want a fortune for like "The Smurfs 2" which is free on Netflix. Not much as I knew in the way of rentals but hopefully it will get better down the road. Have no intentions at this time of purchasing any movies at the price they want......
Thanks again, Gerry
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post #395 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ggw2000 View Post
Sorry for the panic attack .. Got the SEN account setup and went through the initial setup on X10. Viewed a few free things and they were nice. Played a little bit of HOCs season 2 episode 1.
Found it funny the they want a fortune for like "The Smurfs 2" which is free on Netflix. Not much as I knew in the way of rentals but hopefully it will get better down the road. Have no intentions at this time of purchasing any movies at the price they want......
Thanks again, Gerry
I agree it is very strange they want so much for smurfs and ghostbusters and they are free on netflix.
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post #396 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 05:22 PM
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Got my x10 today from crutchfield. Was actually a little surprised how small the box and the unit was but hey, not much to it, right? Actually a bit underwhelmed with the unit overall. It's pretty annoying to be on Sony's content by default but that's to be expected I guess. I wasn't about to plunk $34.99 down on a movie while I'm evaluating this unit and forfeit that money if i return it. So I looked at some of the free content and I'm a bit "meh" about it all. I suspect it's because 4k will be a marginal upgrade from 1080p rather than the difference between 1080 and 480.

Any suggestion for the best content to look at and determine if it's worth keeping?
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post #397 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dreaux View Post
I fear streaming is the future but perhaps the H.265 will reduce the files sizes and the download times. Sony needs to reduce the prices of the downloads I believe, after all they are not sending out physical media like a blu-ray disk which would cost them more. Sony needs some competitors for 4K delivery. Until then they will charge what they want because they can.
I am waiting until the prices come down to buy.
I would estimate that at current bitrates (ca. 15 Mbps) not too many people would be able to watch a movie via Netflix. Most will have caps on their traffic and/or an internet connection that is too slow.
Both the quality and the connection speed issues can be solved by allowing downloads instead of streaming and I am for that as a replacement of physical media if that is what we are supposed to have.
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post #398 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
What I'm most curious about is the difference between Netflix 4K and Blu-ray. I have noticed that 720p Netflix or Sat/Cable is about equal to upscaled DVD, while 1080p Netflix/Vudu HDX/Sat/cable is better than DVD but not as good as Blu-ray. If Netflix 4K is equal to Blu-ray (or even better in some cases) then that will make streaming a very interesting option when more content arrives on it.
I agree that if it is at or above Blu-ray quality then that would be a very good option for many and a very serious threat to physical media.

In another thread (Budapest Hotel comparison) I saw that Amazon is making great strides in 1080p streaming quality and as we know they have also announced a 4k offering later this year working together with the two big hitters Fox and Warner.
If they keep up the quality to that standard for their 4k content then it may win quite a few people over to streaming, especially if the studios continue to drag their feet with regard to an upcoming 4k format.
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post #399 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post
I agree that if it is at or above Blu-ray quality then that would be a very good option for many and a very serious threat to physical media.

In another thread (Budapest Hotel comparison) I saw that Amazon is making great strides in 1080p streaming quality and as we know they have also announced a 4k offering later this year working together with the two big hitters Fox and Warner.
If they keep up the quality to that standard for their 4k content then it may win quite a few people over to streaming, especially if the studios continue to drag their feet with regard to an upcoming 4k format.
That sounds great! Hopefully we can have options to buy/rent to download as well from those studios in the near future.
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post #400 of 2972 Old 07-31-2014, 09:30 PM
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That sounds great! Hopefully we can have options to buy/rent to download as well from those studios in the near future.
Just got my unit today, but where are the free movies? It seems that all the free stuff are just a few minutes long.
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post #401 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 12:35 AM
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Just got my unit today, but where are the free movies? It seems that all the free stuff are just a few minutes long.
ditto, none of the stuff that was "supposed" to be free is free. No worries, but a FEW free 4k movies would have been nice. Kind of par for the course for sony though.
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post #402 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 12:43 AM
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I agree that if it is at or above Blu-ray quality then that would be a very good option for many and a very serious threat to physical media.
IMO, and it's just that, but I have fairly decent eyesight, it's not so much the media but the copy that gets pressed. Very shortly before BD hit hard, there was a redux and remaster of Predator, that even upconverted on the most inept unit, let's say an xbox, still blows away the BD version. None of those on again off again washed out blues and sudden brightness changes. Very similar to the remaster on DVD of Dances With Wolves, even when compared to the BD copy.
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post #403 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 03:34 AM
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Just got my unit today, but where are the free movies? It seems that all the free stuff are just a few minutes long.
Sony carefully worded it as titles not movies. There are only shorts for free. I agree that due to the price a few movies would have been nice.

The rent or own feature of the media player is the money maker for Sony. They have a very short window of time to get away with charging the current prices for the titles though.
As soon as other players begin showing up, the monopoly is over.

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post #404 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post
I would estimate that at current bitrates (ca. 15 Mbps) not too many people would be able to watch a movie via Netflix. Most will have caps on their traffic and/or an internet connection that is too slow.
Both the quality and the connection speed issues can be solved by allowing downloads instead of streaming and I am for that as a replacement of physical media if that is what we are supposed to have.
Looks like US average is only 10.0 Mbps. Latvia is faster. But I would assume most of us on this thread have faster than 10.

Country/Territory Avg. connection speed (Mbit/s)[5] - World average 3.8 1 South Korea 21.9 2 Japan 12.8 3 Netherlands 12.4 4 Hong Kong 12.2 5 Switzerland 12.0 6 Czech Republic 11.4 7 Sweden 10.5 8 Ireland 10.4 8 Latvia 10.4 10 United States 10.0
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post #405 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 05:25 AM
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As we've seen for the last year, the service speed you have from your ISP is far faster than the download speeds clocked by both the 4K player and the built-in app on the TV.

I have 50M service from Comcast. Plug a laptop into the router and it shows 58M. Run the TV app and it shows 18M. The X1 I had maxed out at 14.3M.

Interesting side fact, the BDP790 Blu-ray (also wired) shows Crackle (for example) at 48M. The 900A does not display download speed for apps, pretty odd feature.
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post #406 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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As we've seen for the last year, the service speed you have from your ISP is far faster than the download speeds clocked by both the 4K player and the built-in app on the TV.

I have 50M service from Comcast. Plug a laptop into the router and it shows 58M. Run the TV app and it shows 18M. The X1 I had maxed out at 14.3M.

Interesting side fact, the BDP790 Blu-ray (also wired) shows Crackle (for example) at 48M. The 900A does not display download speed for apps, pretty odd feature.
There is a speed app built into the 900a. I can't remember the name, maybe network something. Just search all apps.
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post #407 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 06:00 AM
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There is a speed app built into the 900a. I can't remember the name, maybe network something. Just search all apps.
It's called Network and Speed Test. That's the one that shows 18M. The TV doesn't display what you're running any particular app at. (Crackle etc)

Last edited by LeeSoFl; 08-01-2014 at 06:04 AM.
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post #408 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 06:40 AM
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It's called Network and Speed Test. That's the one that shows 18M. The TV doesn't display what you're running any particular app at. (Crackle etc)
It seems that most of us that have tried this speed test app are getting the same readings. I get 17-18mbs, even though I have a 100 Mbs pipe. So it must be reading the throughput to SEN, which seems to throttle the speed. So, if an X10 owner accesses Netflix, is the network path through SEN, or directly to Netflix? Do we know how to determine this? If through SEN, it will be difficult to sustain a 4K stream.
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post #409 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 07:20 AM
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It seems that most of us that have tried this speed test app are getting the same readings. I get 17-18mbs, even though I have a 100 Mbs pipe. So it must be reading the throughput to SEN, which seems to throttle the speed. So, if an X10 owner accesses Netflix, is the network path through SEN, or directly to Netflix? Do we know how to determine this? If through SEN, it will be difficult to sustain a 4K stream.
Well if Netflix themselves caps 4k speeds at 13 mbps (or so), then that still would be the weakest link.
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post #410 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 07:33 AM
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Does anyone know how to turn on and off subtitles on the X10? I see that while a video is playing and you hit display on the remote you will see a box that says options. When I select that I only get 'play from the beginning', 'subtitle settings' and 'repeat', but nowhere to turn subtitles on or off.

Glad I did find how to delete a video in my playlist so they don't pile up and take up HD space.
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post #411 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 07:53 AM
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Well if Netflix themselves caps 4k speeds at 13 mbps (or so), then that still would be the weakest link.
True. The sad thing is that we as consumers rarely know where the bottleneck is. Only that it's there.
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post #412 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 08:01 AM
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Does anyone know how to turn on and off subtitles on the X10? I see that while a video is playing and you hit display on the remote you will see a box that says options. When I select that I only get 'play from the beginning', 'subtitle settings' and 'repeat', but nowhere to turn subtitles on or off.

Glad I did find how to delete a video in my playlist so they don't pile up and take up HD space.
For 4K Unlimited videos, hit the UP arrow on the circle thingy and it will bring you to the options available on the video that's playing. Hit it again to get into the upper menu area and go right until you get to it. It took me a while to figure it out too. On the two movies I own (Bridge on the River Kwai and Lawrence of Arabia), only captions are available.

For Netflix you just hit the display button. That's easier, and they seem to provide more audio and sub options than Sony does. I was pleasantly surprised.

In either case, go into subtitle setting and select "none".
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post #413 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 08:08 AM
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Are these Sony files encoded in the more efficient H.265 codec?
The X1 was H.264 only, most likely using eyeIO, so my guess is they are all H.264 encoded. Not likely they have dual encodes at this point in time
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post #414 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 09:18 AM
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The X1 was H.264 only, most likely using eyeIO, so my guess is they are all H.264 encoded. Not likely they have dual encodes at this point in time
So if 4k requires 4 times the bit rate using the same codec, then the Blu-ray "equivalent" video rate of Lawrence of Arabia 4k is around 12 mbps (with the actual 4K total bit rate at 49 mbps and assuming the video portion is a couple of mbps under that).

What about Netflix? They must use H.265 or another higher (proprietory?) efficient codec to be able to stream 4k at only 13 mbps total bit rate. The video would look awful using H.264.
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post #415 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 10:22 AM
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So if 4k requires 4 times the bit rate using the same codec, then the Blu-ray "equivalent" video rate of Lawrence of Arabia 4k is around 12 mbps (with the actual 4K total bit rate at 49 mbps and assuming the video portion is a couple of mbps under that).

What about Netflix? They must use H.265 or another higher (proprietory?) efficient codec to be able to stream 4k at only 13 mbps total bit rate. The video would look awful using H.264.
Netflix 4k is using HEVC (H.265) for streaming. That will probably end up being the codec that is eventually used on 4k Blu Ray Disc when they are created.
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post #416 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Oliver Klohs View Post
I agree that if it is at or above Blu-ray quality then that would be a very good option for many and a very serious threat to physical media.

In another thread (Budapest Hotel comparison) I saw that Amazon is making great strides in 1080p streaming quality and as we know they have also announced a 4k offering later this year working together with the two big hitters Fox and Warner.
If they keep up the quality to that standard for their 4k content then it may win quite a few people over to streaming, especially if the studios continue to drag their feet with regard to an upcoming 4k format.

1) Will Amazon 4k likely use HEVC coding, and if so, what are the odds that the X10 will be firmware upgraded to allow the Amazon 4k app on it? It would be nice to see VUDU 4K on the X10 someday.

2) Is the VP9 coded devices going to be meaningful competition for Sony's HEVC devices? Has any streaming companies signed up for VP9?

I am on the fence on getting the X10, but what has me concerned is no new announcements for future/imminent Netflix 4K film releases. The download service doesn't interest me, especially at $30 per film. I don't mind inferior audio for streaming, but at $30 per film, I will wait for 4k bd and have great sound. The longer it takes for more streaming movies and 4k app partners to be added to the X10, the more sense it makes to wait for 4K bluray, which will likely include many 4k streaming apps. Ie Netflix, Amazon and maybe even VUDU.

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post #417 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 02:40 PM - Thread Starter
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1) Will Amazon 4k likely use HEVC coding, and if so, what are the odds that the X10 will be firmware upgraded to allow the Amazon 4k app on it? It would be nice to see VUDU 4K on the X10 someday.

2) Is the VP9 coded devices going to be meaningful competition for Sony's HEVC devices? Has any streaming companies signed up for VP9?

I am on the fence on getting the X10, but what has me concerned is no new announcements for future/imminent Netflix 4K film releases. The download service doesn't interest me, especially at $30 per film. I don't mind inferior audio for streaming, but at $30 per film, I will wait for 4k bd and have great sound. The longer it takes for more streaming movies and 4k app partners to be added to the X10, the more sense it makes to wait for 4K bluray, which will likely include many 4k streaming apps. Ie Netflix, Amazon and maybe even VUDU.
1) every answer will just be a guess. Sony has not mentioned anything about future updates.

2)VP9 is what YouTube uses. I am sure google will continue to push its codec.
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post #418 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
So if 4k requires 4 times the bit rate using the same codec, then the Blu-ray "equivalent" video rate of Lawrence of Arabia 4k is around 12 mbps (with the actual 4K total bit rate at 49 mbps and assuming the video portion is a couple of mbps under that).

Sony are using eyeIO's tweaked version of AVC which (IIRC) is said to be 50% more efficient, so the bitrates of their 4K Unlimited movies are up to half of what they would be if they were encoded with 'regular' AVC. If we double Lawrence's 4K video-only bitrate to what it would be with normal AVC, let's say 90 Mb/s, and THEN divide it by four, we get 22.5 Mb/s, which just so happens to be the average video bitrate of the Blu-ray version, give or take a few kb/s. (Although the 2-disc Mi4K BD version has fat 34 MB/s encodes for each portion of the movie!)

With that in mind, I do wonder whether eyeIO's compression is taking more out of the PQ than we may think, leading to all the complaints about picture quality with certain material. I'm NOT saying that it's ruining everything, as you'd have to work pretty hard to screw up your average specifically-shot 4K demo video, or indeed something as glorious as Lawrence of Arabia, but the nuances of older 35mm material might be getting lost in translation. That's mere speculation on my part, not having seen any of the 4K Unlimited videos (chance would be a fine thing, **** you very much Sony!), but I've heard that HEVC resolves things like grain even finer than what any flavour of AVC can do, so I think we've yet to see the best of 4K video. (And this is before we even get into HDR, HFR, WCG etc.)
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Last edited by Geoff D; 08-01-2014 at 06:13 PM.
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post #419 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 09:14 PM
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Netflix 4k quality is great....for some content. The Moving Art episodes blew me away. I never would have guessed they were Netflix streams. Check out the last 3 minutes of the Moving Art: Flowers short.

Netflix 4K content is limited at the moment. Feature films include: Hitch, Surfs 2, Philadelphia and Ghostbusters. TV Series: Breaking Bad and House of Cards. The Moving Art shorts are mixed. When lighting is good, you get excellent results (Moving Art: Deserts opening). When lighting conditions are bad (Moving Art: Forests opening) you get a murky image.

I'm happy with the device, just not wild about the little remote it ships with. What were they thinking with that design for the top row of buttons (audio and input)?? Not made for adult fingers for sure.

I'll keep my unit. Netflix and being able to play 4K off USB are best features in my opinion.
Played with the X10 tonight. No new 4K movies, but I stumbled across a good video quality comparison on Netflix. For those of you with the X10, search for the movie Samsara. Jump to the 29:00 min mark and watch the desert cavern footage. (Don't know where it's filmed, but you'll recognize it.) That film plays on Netflix in 1080 Super HD. After a couple of minutes, jump to the Moving Art: Deserts short. Advance to the 20:00 min mark. Same desert cavern. Moving Art: Deserts is shown in Ultra HD 4K mode. Wow!

Just hope Netflix adds more new videos soon!!!

Last edited by TVAzteca; 08-01-2014 at 09:17 PM.
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post #420 of 2972 Old 08-01-2014, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex View Post
1) Will Amazon 4k likely use HEVC coding, and if so, what are the odds that the X10 will be firmware upgraded to allow the Amazon 4k app on it? It would be nice to see VUDU 4K on the X10 someday.

2) Is the VP9 coded devices going to be meaningful competition for Sony's HEVC devices? Has any streaming companies signed up for VP9?

I am on the fence on getting the X10, but what has me concerned is no new announcements for future/imminent Netflix 4K film releases. The download service doesn't interest me, especially at $30 per film. I don't mind inferior audio for streaming, but at $30 per film, I will wait for 4k bd and have great sound. The longer it takes for more streaming movies and 4k app partners to be added to the X10, the more sense it makes to wait for 4K bluray, which will likely include many 4k streaming apps. Ie Netflix, Amazon and maybe even VUDU.
It is too early to answer these questions, looking forward 6 months I wonder how things will look at that point regarding 4k software and its playback:

- how many streaming services will we have that can do 4k? Netflix, Amazon and possibly another one like Vudu ?
- will we have other high quality download options?
- what about high resolution audio?
- what kind of additional 4k capable hardware will we have that is not built into TV's except for the FMP-X10? Specialized or universal devices? Will 4k streaming be possible on a PC?
- which of the big studios will be supporting 4k at home with content?

In any case these are exciting times
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