Sony FMP-X10 owners thread - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by TVAzteca View Post
Played with the X10 tonight. No new 4K movies, but I stumbled across a good video quality comparison on Netflix. For those of you with the X10, search for the movie Samsara. Jump to the 29:00 min mark and watch the desert cavern footage. (Don't know where it's filmed, but you'll recognize it.) That film plays on Netflix in 1080 Super HD. After a couple of minutes, jump to the Moving Art: Deserts short. Advance to the 20:00 min mark. Same desert cavern. Moving Art: Deserts is shown in Ultra HD 4K mode. Wow!

Just hope Netflix adds more new videos soon!!!
Good information - thanks.
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post #422 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 06:29 AM
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Netflix 4k is using HEVC (H.265) for streaming. That will probably end up being the codec that is eventually used on 4k Blu Ray Disc when they are created.
Most believe the BDA will include the recently approved H.265 extensions that allow greater bit depths, higher color sample rates, etc. A wider color gamut (as in Rec. 2020) will most likely be included.
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post #423 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 06:37 AM
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You can ask Sony's customer service if the sky is purple and they will say YES, would you like to buy ... ? They are no different than used car sales people.
Correct, and that's why I have not purchased the unit as of yet. I am sure Sony knows presently if the unit is designed in such a way that the additions of apps and other services are even possible through firmware updates. If they don't officially disclose this then I am skeptIcal of its app upgradability.
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post #424 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 06:43 AM
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Most believe the BDA will include the recently approved H.265 extensions that allow greater bit depths, higher color sample rates, etc. A wider color gamut (as in Rec. 2020) will most likely be included.
As far as the normal H.265 vs the H.265 extended, the extended version will have little impact on streaming quality because of limitations on internet bandwidth, correct? I understand how the extended version could be very beneficial for the 4k bluray hard disc media.
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post #425 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 06:52 AM
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Correct, and that's why I have not purchased the unit as of yet. I am sure Sony knows presently if the unit is designed in such a way that the additions of apps and other services are even possible through firmware updates. If they don't officially disclose this then I am skeptIcal of its app upgradability.
I didn't buy it either. I paid 5,500 for my 65x900a which doesn't have the chip to support 4k netflix . That was one of the selling points when i bought it was to stream 4k netflix. If i would have know at the time that the TV doesn't support it and has no upgrade path i would not have bought the TV. They should have created a US version of the x5 and given that to A owners.
I am not getting burned twice by Sony.

People can say early adopters should expect this but i don't believe buying something early should mean poor customer service.

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post #426 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 06:52 AM
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I know some of you had the "no audio" problem passing dd+ from hdmi port 2 on the X-1 into various processors and avrs. Some of you had to use an hdmi to optical/toslink converter to get straight dd sound. When you switched to the X10 did you notice Sony fixed the audio problem with the hdmi 2, so an optical converter is no longer necessary?

I know the McIntosh 150/151 has this problem, which can be fixed via a firmware upgrade and a fairly elaborate re-eq/recalibration, which I am trying to avoid (at least until the final firware is released). My guess, since the Netflix only streams in dd+, the hdmi to optical converter will not work.

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post #427 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 07:01 AM
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I didn't buy it either. I paid 5,500 for my 65x900a which doesn't have the chip to support 4k netflix . That was one of the selling points when i bought it was to stream 4k netflix. If i would have know at the time that the TV doesn't support it and has no upgrade path i would not have bought the TV. They should have created a US version of the x5 and given that to A owners.
I am not getting burned twice by Sony.
I agree, I wish the X5 was available in the US. How many people are actually buying $30 dowloaded movies on the X1/X10 with dd+ sound? My guess very few, as evidenced by the posts in the Sony 1000/1100es thread. The free shorts get old very quick.

The 4k bluray disc format ($30-ish with high resolution/lossless sound and streaming interest me, even with so so sound quality because its part of a monthly paid service and it's convenient. The download model (somewhere between hard disc and streaming formats) does not interest me as it is inconvenient to wait for downloads, expensive and has low resolution sound.

Remember the dowload model VUDU box, (mine is still collecting dust somewhere). It did not stick around that long as VUDUs future success was with streaming.

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post #428 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 08:44 AM
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Sony are using eyeIO's tweaked version of AVC which (IIRC) is said to be 50% more efficient, so the bitrates of their 4K Unlimited movies are up to half of what they would be if they were encoded with 'regular' AVC. If we double Lawrence's 4K video-only bitrate to what it would be with normal AVC, let's say 90 Mb/s, and THEN divide it by four, we get 22.5 Mb/s, which just so happens to be the average video bitrate of the Blu-ray version, give or take a few kb/s. (Although the 2-disc Mi4K BD version has fat 34 MB/s encodes for each portion of the movie!)

With that in mind, I do wonder whether eyeIO's compression is taking more out of the PQ than we may think, leading to all the complaints about picture quality with certain material. I'm NOT saying that it's ruining everything, as you'd have to work pretty hard to screw up your average specifically-shot 4K demo video, or indeed something as glorious as Lawrence of Arabia, but the nuances of older 35mm material might be getting lost in translation. That's mere speculation on my part, not having seen any of the 4K Unlimited videos (chance would be a fine thing, **** you very much Sony!), but I've heard that HEVC resolves things like grain even finer than what any flavour of AVC can do, so I think we've yet to see the best of 4K video. (And this is before we even get into HDR, HFR, WCG etc.)
Thanks for the info. Actually though you would multiply the Lawrence 4k video only by 1.5, giving around 68 mbps. Dividing by four gives 17 mpbs Blu-ray equivalent. That's good enough as long as it's properly encoded.

Look forward to the improvements that HDR etc. will bring some day (probably at least a couple of years away).
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post #429 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 08:54 AM
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Compared Netflix Breaking Bad to the Sony 4k version. Doesn't look as detailed but it certainly looks very good. Not worth paying $4 an episode for the extra detail, IMO.

Also compared Smurfs 2 Netflix to the Blu-ray version. Detail-wise they looked the same, but the Netflix version had much more pop and color saturation. Makes me wonder if Smurfs 2 was remastered after the Blu-ray came out, but then it says on the Blu-ray case that the 2D version of Smurfs 2 is mastered in 4k. The preview sample of the Sony 4K Smurfs 2 looked the same color-wise but had a decent amount of extra detail as well. Nevertheless, the 3D version destroys them all watching on the 900A.

All in all I'm very impressed with Netflix streaming quality at 4K, with everything I've tried so far (well they don't have much yet, but hopefully they'll add more soon).
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post #430 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 09:08 AM
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Thanks for the info. Actually though you would multiply the Lawrence 4k video only by 1.5, giving around 68 mbps. Dividing by four gives 17 mpbs Blu-ray equivalent. That's good enough as long as it's properly encoded.

Look forward to the improvements that HDR etc. will bring some day (probably at least a couple of years away).
I thought I might've been off in the calculations but at least the reasoning is sound. If 17 mb/s is indeed what the regular AVC equivalent would be, then that's teetering very close to the edge IMO. As you said, if the encode is tight enough then it can still give you decent results, but "good enough" is not what 4K should be aiming for.

That's why I'm hoping and praying that 4K BD becomes a reality because we'll be stuck with these bit-starved downloads and streaming otherwise. Which, like I said, is fine for content that's clean and sharp to begin with, but for grainier, grungier material it simply won't look as good as it could, which is why I'm wondering if the some of the movies on 4K unlimited are being done a disservice.
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post #431 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 09:20 AM
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I thought I might've been off in the calculations but at least the reasoning is sound. If 17 mb/s is indeed what the regular AVC equivalent would be, then that's teetering very close to the edge IMO. As you said, if the encode is tight enough then it can still give you decent results, but "good enough" is not what 4K should be aiming for.

That's why I'm hoping and praying that 4K BD becomes a reality because we'll be stuck with these bit-starved downloads and streaming otherwise. Which, like I said, is fine for content that's clean and sharp to begin with, but for grainier, grungier material it simply won't look as good as it could, which is why I'm wondering if the some of the movies on 4K unlimited are being done a disservice.
Not to mention Netflix swapping titles out and you go to watch something and it is gone. Physical media rocks !!!
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post #432 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 02:04 PM
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As far as the normal H.265 vs the H.265 extended, the extended version will have little impact on streaming quality because of limitations on internet bandwidth, correct?
It will probably require more bits. Many think UHD BD will be ≈ 100GB (3 layers). With 100GB and careful H.265 encoding should make for a great UHD experience.

Streaming is all about the least number of bits possible and is likely to remain that way. Downloading is a very niche way of consuming content and it too is likely to remain that way. While a download (non UHD) can/could match a BD, most do not. The one exception is Kaleidescape, an expensive proposition to say the least. And UV downloads, “forget about it”.
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post #433 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 03:31 PM
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So is the H.265 codec twice as efficient? Netflix needs all the help it can get to squeeze respectable 4K out of a 13 mbps-capped pipe.
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post #434 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 03:47 PM
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I thought I might've been off in the calculations but at least the reasoning is sound. If 17 mb/s is indeed what the regular AVC equivalent would be, then that's teetering very close to the edge IMO. As you said, if the encode is tight enough then it can still give you decent results, but "good enough" is not what 4K should be aiming for.

That's why I'm hoping and praying that 4K BD becomes a reality because we'll be stuck with these bit-starved downloads and streaming otherwise. Which, like I said, is fine for content that's clean and sharp to begin with, but for grainier, grungier material it simply won't look as good as it could, which is why I'm wondering if the some of the movies on 4K unlimited are being done a disservice.
Yeah, 17 mpbs (BD equivalent) is cutting it pretty tight on the low end.

Who knows if and when 4K BD will become a reality. From what I've read it'll be a couple of years before everything is standardized. In any case there won't be a lot of content and it may not come to Blu-ray if the market is too small to justify it. Besides the studios all seem determine to plow on to digital and they may use the new standard as a trojan horse for digital (where they will have more control over copy protection and distribution, both extremely important aspects to them).

If 4K makes it to disc, then it will likely be a hybrid system where storage will be a disc but that the player will require an internet connection to play it (just a sniff of internet will do, to authenticate), as well as more stringent copy protection schemes (such as those outlined by Sony themselves). The studios remember they were promised better copy protection for BLu-ray and they got burned when it was cracked almost from day one. That coupled with lower than expected sales will make it a tough sell to studios, IMO.

It would be a dream to get "blow your socks off" UHD discs in a few years, and I'll be ready if/when it happens. In the meantime I'm happy biding my time when what we have now, which is certainly better than nothing.
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post #435 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 04:36 PM
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The announcement that DirecTV is considering adding on-demand 4K content perhaps as early as next year is one of the more exciting announcements I have heard recently. 4K streamed over a satellite link won't have the issues that an internet stream will have. And, if DirecTV does it right, they might have a demo channel with free 4K content, similar with what they did with 3D content.

I suspect this will require new DVR hardware, but the hardware is reasonably priced and also functions as a content recorder. All conjecture at this point, but we are all looking for a hint of light at the end of the tunnel.
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post #436 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 04:44 PM
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The announcement that DirecTV is considering adding on-demand 4K content perhaps as early as next year is one of the more exciting announcements I have heard recently. 4K streamed over a satellite link won't have the issues that an internet stream will have. And, if DirecTV does it right, they might have a demo channel with free 4K content, similar with what they did with 3D content.

I suspect this will require new DVR hardware, but the hardware is reasonably priced and also functions as a content recorder. All conjecture at this point, but we are all looking for a hint of light at the end of the tunnel.
That is definitely exciting and one of the reasons I like DirecTV.

Recently I have been downloading shows through their OnDemand because the image quality is better than the broadcast.
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post #437 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 05:00 PM
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Yes, the quality of the DirecTV signal is excellent, and looks especially good on our 4K displays.
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post #438 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 05:23 PM
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Yes, the quality of the DirecTV signal is excellent, and looks especially good on our 4K displays.
I saw Comcast running on my TV before I bought it and was a bit scared. Having DirecTV being upscaled to 4K looks notably better. Even watching the news in the morning, the image is great. (for broadcast)
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post #439 of 1774 Old 08-02-2014, 09:19 PM
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Yes, the quality of the DirecTV signal is excellent, and looks especially good on our 4K displays.
Agreed
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post #440 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 06:28 AM
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The announcement that DirecTV is considering adding on-demand 4K content perhaps as early as next year is one of the more exciting announcements I have heard recently. 4K streamed over a satellite link won't have the issues that an internet stream will have. And, if DirecTV does it right, they might have a demo channel with free 4K content, similar with what they did with 3D content.

I suspect this will require new DVR hardware, but the hardware is reasonably priced and also functions as a content recorder. All conjecture at this point, but we are all looking for a hint of light at the end of the tunnel.

That is good news. I did call them on that and they said they will do whatever is necessary to remain competitive, but said they might have a bandwidth issue with 4K.
They have enough satellites now so it might be worked out.
Right now I am trying to get them to run the new ESPN SEC channel. Coming from a SEC school I gotta see those games!
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post #441 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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That is good news. I did call them on that and they said they will do whatever is necessary to remain competitive, but said they might have a bandwidth issue with 4K.
They have enough satellites now so it might be worked out.
Right now I am trying to get them to run the new ESPN SEC channel. Coming from a SEC school I gotta see those games!
UGA here
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post #442 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 12:10 PM
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Gator here......you have an excellent coach...we have.... a not so excellent one.
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post #443 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 01:57 PM
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I know some of you had the "no audio" problem passing dd+ from hdmi port 2 on the X-1 into various processors and avrs. Some of you had to use an hdmi to optical/toslink converter to get straight dd sound. When you switched to the X10 did you notice Sony fixed the audio problem with the hdmi 2, so an optical converter is no longer necessary?

I know the McIntosh 150/151 has this problem, which can be fixed via a firmware upgrade and a fairly elaborate re-eq/recalibration, which I am trying to avoid (at least until the final firware is released). My guess, since the Netflix only streams in dd+, the hdmi to optical converter will not work.
I'm currently not getting sound using the HDMI 2 port out of the FMP-x10. I have it going through a Yamaha RX 675 AVR processor. Everything shows set up correctly (e.g. I show the HDMI 2 port active and the sound is being routed to the avr) on the OSD of the FMP-x10. The picture is fine. I'm using one of the Sony 4k projectors. Any help or advice?

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post #444 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 04:55 PM
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First did you go to the menu settings on the X10 and assign hdmi 2 to audio out only? (this is what had to be done on the X1).

If you did that and there is no sound...then it looks like Sony did not fix the hdmi sound bug out of hdmi 2 on the new X10. Your option at that point would be: to wait for a Sony X10 firmware update, which never came for the X1, hope for your avr to get an updated firmware that corrects Sony's problem, or get an hdmi to optical converter from Amazon, Monoprice or Cablemart.

You would go out of the X10's hdmi 2 with an hdmi cable then into the converter...then out of the converter with an optical/toslink cable and into your avr. The down side is that your no longer getting dd+ but instead are processing regular dd. The downloaded movie audio "should" work but not sure of Netflix streaming. Again this is all somewhat speculative as thus far it has only been done with the X1.

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post #445 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 06:11 PM
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One thing I thought about today and then checked to see if was supported, is 3D support in the Netflix app.

Granted I would much prefer to have 4K playback but not including support seems like an oversight.
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post #446 of 1774 Old 08-03-2014, 08:36 PM
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One thing I thought about today and then checked to see if was supported, is 3D support in the Netflix app.

Granted I would much prefer to have 4K playback but not including support seems like an oversight.
3d was only added this year to Netflix so hopefully there will be a new app that supports it soon.
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post #447 of 1774 Old 08-04-2014, 11:10 AM
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I hadn't seen Breaking Bad, but since Netflix is streaming it 4k, which is essentially Blu-ray quality or slightly better, I may as well take advantage of watching it for free. Maybe by the time I'm finished Netflix will have more 4K content that I want to watch.

BTW, haven't seen House of Cards either. Is that pretty good?
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post #448 of 1774 Old 08-04-2014, 11:13 AM
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haven't seen House of Cards either. Is that pretty good?
Yes it is, but you'll have to get through Season 1 first, which isn't in 4K.
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post #449 of 1774 Old 08-04-2014, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I hadn't seen Breaking Bad, but since Netflix is streaming it 4k, which is essentially Blu-ray quality or slightly better, I may as well take advantage of watching it for free. Maybe by the time I'm finished Netflix will have more 4K content that I want to watch.

BTW, haven't seen House of Cards either. Is that pretty good?
I enjoyed season 1, but season 2 was not that good IMO. I am going to stop watching it now since there are several other shows I want to pick up or continue to watch instead.
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post #450 of 1774 Old 08-04-2014, 11:29 AM
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First did you go to the menu settings on the X10 and assign hdmi 2 to audio out only? (this is what had to be done on the X1).

If you did that and there is no sound...then it looks like Sony did not fix the hdmi sound bug out of hdmi 2 on the new X10. Your option at that point would be: to wait for a Sony X10 firmware update, which never came for the X1, hope for your avr to get an updated firmware that corrects Sony's problem, or get an hdmi to optical converter from Amazon, Monoprice or Cablemart.

You would go out of the X10's hdmi 2 with an hdmi cable then into the converter...then out of the converter with an optical/toslink cable and into your avr. The down side is that your no longer getting dd+ but instead are processing regular dd. The downloaded movie audio "should" work but not sure of Netflix streaming. Again this is all somewhat speculative as thus far it has only been done with the X1.
Thanks for the troubleshooting advice. As it turns out the mistake was mine, and a simple one at that. I replaced HDMI cables with the one that came with the Media Server and the sound worked. Only got to try it the free Spiderman 2 trailer, but will try it for Netflix soon.
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Reply Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming
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