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post #31 of 346 Old 04-28-2016, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
Putting it like this, then ARC is SPDIF plus additional bandwitdh plus automatic capability and connection negotiations.
Just saw this -- how is additional bandwidth available on ARC? As we've both said, it seems that, in its current implementation, the ARC end-points are implemented as S/P-DIF ports. So, wouldn't its bandwidth, currently, be limited to S/P-DIF's DL and PHY layer specification?

Did you mean that because negotiation exists, there may be more bandwidth available to ARC in a future revision of HDMI? Said revision would need to negotiate the use of a different protocol, possibly over the same two ARC pins in the HDMI cable (or maybe over the HEC pins), before that bandwidth could be made available, though, no?

Sorry, I'm not trying to nitpick, but at the end of the day, I think it's best to keep it succinctly said that ARC = S/P-DIF; if you can't send it over S/P-DIF then you can't send it over ARC (in its current incarnation) -- end of story.
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post #32 of 346 Old 04-28-2016, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Just saw this -- how is additional bandwidth available on ARC? As we've both said, it seems that, in its current implementation, the ARC end-points are implemented as S/P-DIF ports. So, wouldn't its bandwidth, currently, be limited to S/P-DIF's DL and PHY layer specification?

Did you mean that because negotiation exists, there may be more bandwidth available to ARC in a future revision of HDMI? Said revision would need to negotiate the use of a different protocol, possibly over the same two ARC pins in the HDMI cable (or maybe over the HEC pins), before that bandwidth could be made available, though, no?

Sorry, I'm not trying to nitpick, but at the end of the day, I think it's best to keep it succinctly said that ARC = S/P-DIF; if you can't send it over S/P-DIF then you can't send it over ARC (in its current incarnation) -- end of story.
Well, there is a difference between a short trace on a PCB (from the SoC to the ARC transmitter), and a 6 foot RCA cable. Also, the TV SoC could even use the more robust I2S interface to send the audio to the ARC transmitter.

And, yes, I was referring to the negotiation as well. ARC can negotiate a 192 kHz connection, if both sides know they can support it. SPDIF, as optical or RCA, can just hope and pray that the currently transmitted audio is actually receivable at the other end. Especially RCA cables can not normally carry 192 kHz audio, even 96 kHz is sometimes a stretch, at a bit rate of 64 times the sample rate. Therefore you'll rarely find more than 48 kHz audio as an option for SPDIF outputs.

ARC could theoretically support an audio rate of 768 kHz, good enough for TrueHD, but that is usually even too much for the wires in the HDMI cable. Also, it gets into a grey area with the HDCP license agreement requirements, when you send lossless audio.

Future extensions are certainly a possibility, which could add more reliability, higher bandwidth, and content protection.
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post #33 of 346 Old 05-07-2016, 09:45 AM
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Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) / Atmos over HDMI ARC

Vizio P series owners are having varied experience getting ATMOS over ARC. It appears to be very finicky (and that could be for a myriad of reasons). Thus far, I have not been able to get it to work but another user with my same Pioneer SC-95 managed after a few tries to get it to finally sync. Unfortunately, he doesn't know exactly what caused it to work.



In theory, using ARC only settings on the display side and leaving HDMI control off on the AVR side should work(ARC enabled), but those users that have been able to get it to work appear to have all HDMI control functions "on". I really don't want HDMI control "ON". Is this a bandwidth/headroom thing or just a poor implementation?

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post #34 of 346 Old 05-09-2016, 12:08 PM
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Hello,

Does anyone know if you would still be able to get the dolby atmos metadata if we were to try and split the hdmi from a streamer like a roku? basically wanted to know if i could use an hdmi splitter and get 4k, hdr (or dolby vision on a future roku or streaming device) using one HDMI from the splitter directly to the tv's HDMI input and the also get dolby atmos from the other hdmi. Would the spiltter cause the HDMI to not be able to pass this information?

thanks again for any help really appreciate it.
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post #35 of 346 Old 05-11-2016, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomasfxlt View Post
*snip*
In theory, using ARC only settings on the display side and leaving HDMI control off on the AVR side should work(ARC enabled), but those users that have been able to get it to work appear to have all HDMI control functions "on". I really don't want HDMI control "ON". Is this a bandwidth/headroom thing or just a poor implementation?
I'd guess poor implementation, probably on the receiver's side.
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Hello,

Does anyone know if you would still be able to get the dolby atmos metadata if we were to try and split the hdmi from a streamer like a roku? basically wanted to know if i could use an hdmi splitter and get 4k, hdr (or dolby vision on a future roku or streaming device) using one HDMI from the splitter directly to the tv's HDMI input and the also get dolby atmos from the other hdmi. Would the spiltter cause the HDMI to not be able to pass this information?

thanks again for any help really appreciate it.
While off-topic for this thread (as I assume you mean splitting the source's connection and NOT using ARC), I believe the answer is yes, a normal splitter will interfere with 4k HDR pass-through. This is because I believe it will be limited to the lowest common denominator, in this case your, I presume, HDMI 1.4 receiver (as if you had a HDMI 2.0a receiver you wouldn't be asking this question, lol).

This is why some 4k devices, e.g the Samsung UHD player, have two HDMI outputs. These devices have an internal "splitter" which is actually two HDMI chips that separately negotiate the video and audio side. A normal splitter cannot do this (some matrix switchers *may* be able to).

However, this device is able to split an HDMI 2.0a signal (for 4k HDR) into an HDMI 2.0a video and HDMI 1.4 audio signal.
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post #36 of 346 Old 05-12-2016, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I'd guess poor implementation, probably on the receiver's side.

While off-topic for this thread (as I assume you mean splitting the source's connection and NOT using ARC), I believe the answer is yes, a normal splitter will interfere with 4k HDR pass-through. This is because I believe it will be limited to the lowest common denominator, in this case your, I presume, HDMI 1.4 receiver (as if you had a HDMI 2.0a receiver you wouldn't be asking this question, lol).

This is why some 4k devices, e.g the Samsung UHD player, have two HDMI outputs. These devices have an internal "splitter" which is actually two HDMI chips that separately negotiate the video and audio side. A normal splitter cannot do this (some matrix switchers *may* be able to).

However, this device is able to split an HDMI 2.0a signal (for 4k HDR) into an HDMI 2.0a video and HDMI 1.4 audio signal.
Thanks for the reply and sorry to go off topic. The receiver i have is the denon x7200wa so it's 2.0a. My problem is that i am getting different answers as to whether the new dolby vision would be able to be passed through the current version of receivers so i was trying to see if something like a roku 5 comes out, with only 1 hdmi output, would we be able to split the signal to get atmos on the receiver and dolby vision on the tv. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

thanks
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post #37 of 346 Old 05-12-2016, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T bagger View Post
Thanks for the reply and sorry to go off topic. The receiver i have is the denon x7200wa so it's 2.0a. My problem is that i am getting different answers as to whether the new dolby vision would be able to be passed through the current version of receivers so i was trying to see if something like a roku 5 comes out, with only 1 hdmi output, would we be able to split the signal to get atmos on the receiver and dolby vision on the tv. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

thanks
With my understanding of how Dolby Vision encoding works, I would guess maybe the source (e.g. UHD player) and definitely the sink (TV) need specialized DV "hardware" (really it seems like it's just firmware running on an appropriately powerful SoC).

That is to say, I think intermediate devices like a switch or your Denon should not hamper its transmission. That's just an educated guess, but I wouldn't spend money on anything to "fix" it unless it you encounter an issue.

Also, Dolby Vision can be sent over HDMI 1.4, but I'd guess it won't show up in that form (sans maybe broadcast stuff if that ever materializes) because of politics (i.e. studios demanded HDCP 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 were required to send 4k despite that HDMI 1.4 had enough bandwidth for most (e.g. up to 30fps) 4k content).

So...that's probably enough derail , now we're both guilty, haha.
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post #38 of 346 Old 05-18-2016, 04:35 PM
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I too have a Vizio P75 and have been able to cast Vudu from the tablet remote to my P75, get UHD resolution in DV and Atmos via ARC on my Marantz SR7010. Initially, I didn't get any sound, but then I saw where I had hidden TV Audio from my list of inputs. Whenever I disabled this, the audio came through perfectly.

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post #39 of 346 Old 06-17-2016, 01:38 AM
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I just wanted to confirm that dd+ dolby digital plus does pass through hdmi arc from the 65inch vizio m 2016 model M65-D0 to my amp the Denon avr-s710w . The front display says DD+ + DDS TV . Using the Denon 2016 remote app on android it says input is dolby digital plus and output is dolby digital plus + dolby atmos/surround and tv is selected at the top source drop down menu. This shows the same when I watch Star wars 3 In dolby digital plus on blu ray player except I can see it on the screen using the info button on the regular remote. I haven't tested if atmos works in arc because the vudu atmos demo is broken for me on the tablet the tv comes with. Im going to buy nvidia shield tv tomorrow. Cheapest atmos player other than a pc
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post #40 of 346 Old 06-19-2016, 06:50 AM
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Vizio M65 (2016 M series) does pass through dolby atmos from arc hdmi.

I used vudu casting app on the tablet and played "into the storm" 4k uhd version. It was amazing. My first true atmos experience. I wanted more though. some scenes didn't have the cielling height effects like rain. But others did and it was really cool. Even subtle effects for ambience were really nice during dialog.

I wish I could figure out who has 4k atmos streaming for transformers 4. I think it's direct tv.
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post #41 of 346 Old 06-25-2016, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tripknotix View Post
I just wanted to confirm that dd+ dolby digital plus does pass through hdmi arc from the 65inch vizio m 2016 model M65-D0 to my amp the Denon avr-s710w .
Thanks, added your confirmations of the M-series and Denon to post 1.
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post #42 of 346 Old 07-25-2016, 07:38 PM
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So these new devices that can handle DD+ over the ARC. Can they handle 7.1 DD+? Or does it truncate the 7.1 DD+ to 5.1DD+. Like it does with my Sony TV that takes the 7.1 DD+ and sends 5.1 DD over the ARC eliminating the two extra channels. What about something higher than 2.0 pcm over the ARC?

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post #43 of 346 Old 07-26-2016, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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So these new devices that can handle DD+ over the ARC. Can they handle 7.1 DD+? Or does it truncate the 7.1 DD+ to 5.1DD+. Like it does with my Sony TV that takes the 7.1 DD+ and sends 5.1 DD over the ARC eliminating the two extra channels. What about something higher than 2.0 pcm over the ARC?
If DD+ is passed through, no channels will be eliminated. The only reason this happens during the DD+ to DD conversion (DD+ decode, downmixing if necessary, DD re-encoding) inside your Sony TV, is that DD only supports up to 5.1.

DD+ supports up to 7.1 channel based, or Atmos object based audio. If a device passes through DD+, it usually does not look into the stream, and therefore leaves the content untouched.

PCM is limited to 2.0 on ARC, same as over SPDIF. This is because the audio transport is using the IEC 60958 protocol, which can handle just two channels of up to 24 bit PCM on these low-bandwidth connections. For compressed audio, that data is packaged in 2 16 bit "PCM"-like samples, according to the IEC 61937 specifications, inside the IEC 60958 stream.
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post #44 of 346 Old 07-26-2016, 06:17 PM
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Manufacturers really need to start 'bending' the rules with regards to DD+ across HDMI-ARC. As long as the DD+ bitrate is low enough (which is typical of current streaming services etc), they should be able to stuff it inside the IEC 61937 'PCM-like" container, making consumers happy. Not being able to pass DD+ and ATMOS from TV to receiver in this day and age is appalling, and very frustrating.

If this can't be done, then TVs need to start offering HDMI 'outputs' with just the audio present on the connector (no video, just BLACK), so ATMOS & DTS:X & DD+ can be passed to an AV receiver.

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post #45 of 346 Old 07-28-2016, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Mecak View Post
Manufacturers really need to start 'bending' the rules with regards to DD+ across HDMI-ARC. As long as the DD+ bitrate is low enough (which is typical of current streaming services etc), they should be able to stuff it inside the IEC 61937 'PCM-like" container, making consumers happy. Not being able to pass DD+ and ATMOS from TV to receiver in this day and age is appalling, and very frustrating.

If this can't be done, then TVs need to start offering HDMI 'outputs' with just the audio present on the connector (no video, just BLACK), so ATMOS & DTS:X & DD+ can be passed to an AV receiver.
Manufacturers **of smart TVs**.
Those of us who don't have/use smart TV features generally have no need for ARC, and especially not anything more than ATSC's DD.
As far as mass consumption goes, though, I partially agree. I'd prefer for the HDMI forum to just re-spec ARC to be able to do the same quality audio forwards as backwards. That would make it really easy.
In fact, if that were the case, then it wouldn't matter if you plugged your BD player into the TV's HDMI input or the AVR's input; either way, the TV would get full-quality video, and the AVR would get lossless Atmos audio. boom-batta-bing!!!
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post #46 of 346 Old 08-08-2016, 10:45 PM
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So unless I'm misreading the tech specs it looks like Sony is very clear about the HDMI ARC features of its upcoming Z9D series:

https://docs.sony.com/release//specs/XBR65Z9D_mksp.pdf

Check out page 3. Under ARC Output format it specifically mentions Dolby Digital +. So that means that TV should be included here, right?
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post #47 of 346 Old 08-08-2016, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venicenerd View Post
So unless I'm misreading the tech specs it looks like Sony is very clear about the HDMI ARC features of its upcoming Z9D series:

https://docs.sony.com/release//specs/XBR65Z9D_mksp.pdf

Check out page 3. Under ARC Output format it specifically mentions Dolby Digital +. So that means that TV should be included here, right?
GOD I HOPE SO! I hope that's not a typo/mistake on the specs list.
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post #48 of 346 Old 08-09-2016, 09:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Venicenerd View Post
So unless I'm misreading the tech specs it looks like Sony is very clear about the HDMI ARC features of its upcoming Z9D series:

https://docs.sony.com/release//specs/XBR65Z9D_mksp.pdf

Check out page 3. Under ARC Output format it specifically mentions Dolby Digital +. So that means that TV should be included here, right?
Thank you for finding that. Added to the list, and moved the list to post 2.

Does anyone know whether the Yamaha YSP-5600 or Samsung HW-K950 Atmos soundbars support DD+ over ARC? I have a suspicion they do, since they need DD+ for Atmos, but the spec sheets don't mention it.
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post #49 of 346 Old 08-09-2016, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T bagger View Post
Thanks for the reply and sorry to go off topic. The receiver i have is the denon x7200wa so it's 2.0a. My problem is that i am getting different answers as to whether the new dolby vision would be able to be passed through the current version of receivers so i was trying to see if something like a roku 5 comes out, with only 1 hdmi output, would we be able to split the signal to get atmos on the receiver and dolby vision on the tv. Sorry for hijacking the thread.

thanks
You don't need a specialized AVR for DVHDRI. Once DV enabled players/discs release, your AVR only needs to support HDMI 2.0a, that simple.

The main thing we should be worrying about is if the industry is going to be *******s and require us to upgrade our hardware for 2.0b/2.1 utilizing Dynamic HDR10. I know for a fact that the bandwidth is under 17gbps at 4:4:4, so it's not needed but you know how it goes, $$$.
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post #50 of 346 Old 08-10-2016, 07:24 AM
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I have a 2016 lg 75inch tv that can stream DV an DD plus.
I have a 2015 pioneer atmos receiver that does 5.2.4 atmos.
When watching UHD on VUDU you get UHD DV an Atmos.
On the TV Vudu app says it's streaming atmos but the receiver says it's out putting DD plus then I use dolby surround which replicates atmos...but I want true atmos, how do I do it?
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post #51 of 346 Old 08-10-2016, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ultraflexed View Post
I have a 2016 lg 75inch tv that can stream DV an DD plus.
I have a 2015 pioneer atmos receiver that does 5.2.4 atmos.
When watching UHD on VUDU you get UHD DV an Atmos.
On the TV Vudu app says it's streaming atmos but the receiver says it's out putting DD plus then I use dolby surround which replicates atmos...but I want true atmos, how do I do it?
Are you sure your receiver is getting Dolby Digital Plus? The 2016 LG OLEDS (not sure about the DV LCDs, probably those as well) do not support DDPlus over ARC, and only send downgraded Dolby Digital 5.1.

Is you receiver maybe showing "Dolby Digital + Surround" or something along those lines? That would indicate "Dolby Digital" and the "Surround" upmixer, not "Dolby Digital +".
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post #52 of 346 Old 08-21-2016, 10:03 AM
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I am wondering what are currently the real-world implications, if any, of this situation with the major streaming services (specifically Netflix, Amazon, and HBO)?

I read somewhere that the streaming services are using DD+ essentially for their enhanced compression capabilities rather than for delivering higher fidelity audio or more channels than 5.1. If that is the case, then is it possible that once say a Netflix DD+ stream is converted to DD, it would still have the same audio quality and number of channels as if an AVR was fed the original DD+ stream? So, if this is correct then the inability of most TVs to transmit DD+ over ARC or SPDIF is, at least nowadays, a moot issue (since at the end of the day the resulting stream, be it DD+ or DD is of the same fidelity)?

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post #53 of 346 Old 08-22-2016, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SireTV View Post
I am wondering what are currently the real-world implications, if any, of this situation with the major streaming services (specifically Netflix, Amazon, and HBO)?

I read somewhere that the streaming services are using DD+ essentially for their enhanced compression capabilities rather than for delivering higher fidelity audio or more channels than 5.1. If that is the case, then is it possible that once say a Netflix DD+ stream is converted to DD, it would still have the same audio quality and number of channels as if an AVR was fed the original DD+ stream? So, if this is correct then the inability of most TVs to transmit DD+ over ARC or SPDIF is, at least nowadays, a moot issue (since at the end of the day the resulting stream, be it DD+ or DD is of the same fidelity)?
Vudu uses 7.1 DD+/ATmos with many of their UHD streaming titles.

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post #54 of 346 Old 08-22-2016, 09:11 AM
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Vudu uses 7.1 DD+/ATmos with many of their UHD streaming titles.
Yeah, I know Vudu has always been on the cutting edge of things but I am wondering about the other providers.
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post #55 of 346 Old 08-22-2016, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SireTV View Post
Yeah, I know Vudu has always been on the cutting edge of things but I am wondering about the other providers.
I've never seen anything higher than 5.1 DD+ from Amazon and Netflix.

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post #56 of 346 Old 08-26-2016, 10:28 AM
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YAMAHA 5600 atmos tested

Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
Does anyone know whether the Yamaha YSP-5600 or Samsung HW-K950 Atmos soundbars support DD+ over ARC? I have a suspicion they do, since they need DD+ for Atmos, but the spec sheets don't mention it.
I tried the Yamaha 5600 on my 2015 LG OLED 1080p tv. I calibrated it per instructions with those laser thingys and Yamaha tech support advised that I plug my BluRay into the HDMI 1 port on the soundbar. Then ARC it to the TV. Also, change it to unprocessed bit.

I didn't notice any sound diff from my $200 2.1 soundbar. Except bigger bass and bigger center channel.......but the upward firing sound? NONE. I returned it.

I will test out the new samsung 950 atmos today.
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post #57 of 346 Old 08-26-2016, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otranto300 View Post
..........

I will test out the new samsung 950 atmos today.
According to Crutchfield it only handles up to 2.0 DTS. And only legacy DTS.

While still handling 5.1 DD, 7.1 DD+, 7.1 Dolby True HD, and Atmos.

I'm curious if this is actually true?

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post #58 of 346 Old 08-28-2016, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
According to Crutchfield it only handles up to 2.0 DTS. And only legacy DTS.

While still handling 5.1 DD, 7.1 DD+, 7.1 Dolby True HD, and Atmos.

I'm curious if this is actually true?
Yes, 5.1 on DTS. Need samsung or PS4 bluray though as it has DTS to Dolby conversion setting.

Last edited by otranto300; 08-28-2016 at 10:00 PM.
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post #59 of 346 Old 09-25-2016, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
List of TVs that support DD+ over ARC


List of AVRs that support DD+ over ARC
  • Denon AVR-X7200W
  • Denon AVR-X5200W
  • Denon AVR-S710W (Thanks, @Tripknotix)
  • Onkyo TX-NR3010
  • Onkyo TX-SR444
  • Onkyo TX-NR525
  • Pioneer VSX-90 (Thanks: @vincois )

List of Soundbars that support DD+ over ARC
  • TBD

The 2016 LG OLED Dolby Vision TVs do not seem to support DD+ over ARC, only DD
My reciever "Yamaha RX-A3050" Appears to be working with DD+ over ARC. I get 5.1.4 sound which is what my current setup is. Tv Displays DD+.
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post #60 of 346 Old 09-28-2016, 06:08 AM
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I have the Vizio P50, enabled "arc" & "bitstream" In the tv audio settings, hdmi out to my Yamaha 1060. I get DD+ for netflix, but only DD for the Vudu Atmos bundle...

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