10 Things to Consider When Shopping for a Media Streamer - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4Likes
  • 2 Post By derreckla
  • 1 Post By Mashie Saldana
  • 1 Post By Scott Wilkinson
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 30 Old 12-07-2016, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1621 Post(s)
Liked: 4373
10 Things to Consider When Shopping for a Media Streamer

If you're shopping for a media streamer, be sure to read up on some important things to think about before making your selection.

http://www.avsforum.com/10-things-to...edia-streamer/

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 30 Old 12-07-2016, 08:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
quack724's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 654
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Thanks for this article. I've been interested in streaming for quite some time now and this saves me a lot of research time. There are days that I feel like a dinosaur using Comcast cable with two DVRs. For this, I pay about $110 / month + $41 / month for business class internet (12/2 speed). However, to even stream HD + multiple internet users, I think I would need to upgrade my current 12Mb/s to at least 25 Mb/s and to avoid data caps, I would need to stick with my Comcast Business class. This would cost me maybe $80/ month. To get comparable channels, it looks like Sling orange work work which is $40 / month. So that is roughly $30 savings going with streaming. But then I don't see DVR functionality. I like to use this feature for live sports. Is there DVR like functionality built into a Roku device or other device?

Also how reliable (downtime, picture break up?) is the streaming experience? Cable reliability has been rock solid for me.
quack724 is offline  
post #3 of 30 Old 12-07-2016, 11:14 PM
Member
 
derreckla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sacramento Area
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by quack724 View Post
Thanks for this article. I've been interested in streaming for quite some time now and this saves me a lot of research time. There are days that I feel like a dinosaur using Comcast cable with two DVRs. For this, I pay about $110 / month + $41 / month for business class internet (12/2 speed). However, to even stream HD + multiple internet users, I think I would need to upgrade my current 12Mb/s to at least 25 Mb/s and to avoid data caps, I would need to stick with my Comcast Business class. This would cost me maybe $80/ month. To get comparable channels, it looks like Sling orange work work which is $40 / month. So that is roughly $30 savings going with streaming. But then I don't see DVR functionality. I like to use this feature for live sports. Is there DVR like functionality built into a Roku device or other device?

Also how reliable (downtime, picture break up?) is the streaming experience? Cable reliability has been rock solid for me.
I can tell you that I tried Playstation Vue and wasn't very pleased. I used Dish forever and only left for Xfinity because took a sales job with them and got employee free package. When I quit I tried Playstation Vue for the last 3 months just so I can watch NBA and UFC fights. I can't tell you how many NBA games were cut off when I couldn't view the ending or their "cloud DVR" screwed up my "recordings" I am happy to say I called Dish TODAY and switched back, now I don't have to worry about missing the ending to my games.

As far as Streaming goes, it's good for Documentaries and some series that aren't released on Blu, Dish is for sports and Blurays for movies and series.

Seems like once a month I yell to the heavens WHY CAN'T they come up with ONE service.
quack724 and GFC like this.

Stay Fired UP!!!
Sony XBR75X940C
Klipsch Original References Series 7 Set (RF-7 mains, RC-7 center, RS-7 sides)
SVS PB13 Ultra
Samsung UBD-K8500 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray Player
Denon AVR-4311CI
derreckla is offline  
 
post #4 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 01:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mashie Saldana's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,525
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 804 Post(s)
Liked: 661
A minor typo in the article:

Quote:
Google and Amazon are not friendly toward one another, so you won’t find Google Play content on an Android device.
I will get an Nvidia Shield for Christmas, not so much for streaming but for SPMC to play my existing content.
Phrehdd likes this.

Tower Cinema - 9.1.6 in a 12'x12' room

Input : Nvidia Shield TV, Panasonic DMP-UB400
Magic : Marantz SR7010, Marantz SR6010, 2x NAD T743
Output : Pioneer KRP-600a, SVS PB13 Ultra, Monitor Audio GSLCR 2xGS20 2xGS10 4xGSFX 6xBX1
Mashie Saldana is offline  
post #5 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 02:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
Cal68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 916
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 174
Apart from directly hooking up one's computer to the TV, is there any way to wirelessly stream what one is watching on one's computer to the TV? I've found that most media streamers only allow one to stream specific programs, but I like to watch cricket matches on my computer and none of the current batch of media streamers that I've tried allow me to stream the games to my TV. The only workaround I know of is to hook up my computer to the TV which is a bit of a pain. I wonder if there are any streamers out there that will stream anything being watched on the computer to my TV. Any help will be much appreciated.

Cal68
Cal68 is offline  
post #6 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 05:04 AM
Member
 
BuddyRich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Apart from directly hooking up one's computer to the TV, is there any way to wirelessly stream what one is watching on one's computer to the TV? I've found that most media streamers only allow one to stream specific programs, but I like to watch cricket matches on my computer and none of the current batch of media streamers that I've tried allow me to stream the games to my TV. The only workaround I know of is to hook up my computer to the TV which is a bit of a pain. I wonder if there are any streamers out there that will stream anything being watched on the computer to my TV. Any help will be much appreciated.
Depends on what PC and/or browser you are using.

You can cast a tab in the chrome browser (and later versions of Firefox now I think) to a chromecast or Shield TV . Or if you are using the Chrome OS the desktop itself.

If on OSX you can airplay your desktop to ATV now as well as airplay is baked into the latest OSX version.

You can also get desktop apps that do this as well.
BuddyRich is offline  
post #7 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 05:05 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 315
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Liked: 137
What about streamers that stream in each show's native fps? What options are there?
Skunkbeard is offline  
post #8 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 05:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
Cal68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 916
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddyRich View Post
Depends on what PC and/or browser you are using.

You can cast a tab in the chrome browser (and later versions of Firefox now I think) to a chromecast or Shield TV . Or if you are using the Chrome OS the desktop itself.

If on OSX you can airplay your desktop to ATV now as well as airplay is baked into the latest OSX version.

You can also get desktop apps that do this as well.
Thanks for the quick response. I am using a Dell PC and running a Chrome browser. Are you saying that if I got myself a Chromecast streamer and attach it to my TV, I will be able to stream anything that I see on my Dell desktop to my TV? That would be fantastic.

Cal68
Cal68 is offline  
post #9 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 06:15 AM
Member
 
BuddyRich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Thanks for the quick response. I am using a Dell PC and running a Chrome browser. Are you saying that if I got myself a Chromecast streamer and attach it to my TV, I will be able to stream anything that I see on my Dell desktop to my TV? That would be fantastic.
Yes. See below for all of the details.

https://support.google.com/chromecas.../3228332?hl=en
BuddyRich is offline  
post #10 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 08:05 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ladeback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 1,038
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 556 Post(s)
Liked: 182
Send a message via MSN to Ladeback
I have been thinking about this and wanting to check into it, but Play Station Vue doesn't look like much of a good deal to me and wonder if Sling TV would be much better. Living in KC I got Google Fiber 2 years ago and it now has the Google Chromecast built into it now. I can stream photos, videos, movies and music from my phone or tablet through it on any of the 4 boxes I have set up. With Google you can watch live TV through another dive except Fox or the NFL Network, there may be other channels you can't watch on a personal device, I just haven't tried them all. One Con, Google won't let you watch recordings from you DVR on a personal device. Now you can use your device as a remote and that has come in handy when the Google remote's batteries are low and I am to lazy to get up and get new ones. You can also set shows to record from your personal device.

Right now I don't see anything with it to me to cut the cord yet. The only thing that would make me go back to Dish if I had to start traveling again and I wanted to be able to access my DVR while on the road so I will be staying with Google for now.
Ladeback is offline  
post #11 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 09:38 AM
AVS Forum Club Gold
 
biliam1982's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 1,567
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 490 Post(s)
Liked: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunkbeard View Post
What about streamers that stream in each show's native fps? What options are there?
Yes, this is what I'd like to know too.

I've read conflicting reports that it's the streamer that alters it or the content provider.
biliam1982 is online now  
post #12 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jimim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NEPA
Posts: 2,176
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Liked: 145
I don't even think you should mention the google chrome cast doing dv cause I doubt it ever will. Cause isn't the certification for third party sources to pass dv not even finalized yet except for tv panels?
jimim is offline  
post #13 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 09:53 AM
Member
 
PixieVampyress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Lost in the Desert
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Thanks for the quick response. I am using a Dell PC and running a Chrome browser. Are you saying that if I got myself a Chromecast streamer and attach it to my TV, I will be able to stream anything that I see on my Dell desktop to my TV? That would be fantastic.
I watch BBC/ITV/Filmon/etc via any one of my PC's (two HP, one Dell and one Acer) on the Google Chrome browser, and stream to a Google Chromecast to watch on my 73 inch TV I love it!
PixieVampyress is offline  
post #14 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 11:17 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Wendell R. Breland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,707
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 311 Post(s)
Liked: 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
If you're shopping for a media streamer, be sure to read up on some important things to think about before making your selection.
Quote:
– Google and Amazon are not friendly toward one another, so you won’t find Google Play content on an Android device.
Scott, I believe you meant to use Amazon (not Android) in that sentence . My Galaxy Tab 4 is loaded with Google products .
Wendell R. Breland is offline  
post #15 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 12:04 PM
Member
 
resnbl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Ashburn, VA
Posts: 23
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Scott, I believe you meant to use Amazon (not Android) in that sentence . My Galaxy Tab 4 is loaded with Google products .
I saw that and agree...

Also, I think the Amazon Fire TV needs to be moved up to the 4K/UHD category - I don't believe it can do HDR (yet).

Vizio M55-D0 • Yamaha RX-V675 • Roku Premiere+ • Panasonic DMP-BD85P • FiOS 75/75 Mbps
resnbl is offline  
post #16 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 01:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1621 Post(s)
Liked: 4373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
Scott, I believe you meant to use Amazon (not Android) in that sentence . My Galaxy Tab 4 is loaded with Google products .
Oops, you're right! I'll fix that in the article. Thanks!

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #17 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1621 Post(s)
Liked: 4373
Quote:
Originally Posted by quack724 View Post
Is there DVR like functionality built into a Roku device or other device?
Not built into the device, but live-TV services, such as PlayStation Vue, are starting to offer DVR functionality. Sling TV just announced that it will begin beta testing its DVR service this month; see my news item about that here.
quack724 likes this.

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #18 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 01:51 PM
UHD Addict
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 31,299
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6413 Post(s)
Liked: 3963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
If you're shopping for a media streamer, be sure to read up on some important things to think about before making your selection.

http://www.avsforum.com/10-things-to...edia-streamer/
According to this article it says that Vudu is using HDR10 and Dolby Vision? When did Vudu start using HDR10? The last time I checked(earlier this week) they still weren't using HDR10 yet.

Also the Roku Ultra adds transcoding from DD+ to DD. Which is the main reason i purchased mine.
The Roku Premiere+ does not have this capability.

53TB unRAID2--41TB unRAID3--35TB unRAID1a
Sony 65x850C--Sony UBP-X800--Onkyo HT-S7800
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline  
post #19 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1621 Post(s)
Liked: 4373
Quote:
Originally Posted by resnbl View Post
I think the Amazon Fire TV needs to be moved up to the 4K/UHD category - I don't believe it can do HDR (yet).
Hmm, I recall seeing that it does support HDR, but now that I look again, it seems that it doesn't. I'll move it...thanks!

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #20 of 30 Old 12-08-2016, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scott Wilkinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Burbank, CA
Posts: 2,964
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1621 Post(s)
Liked: 4373
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
According to this article it says that Vudu is using HDR10 and Dolby Vision? When did Vudu start using HDR10? The last time I checked(earlier this week) they still weren't using HDR10 yet.

Also the Roku Ultra adds transcoding from DD+ to DD. Which is the main reason i purchased mine.
The Roku Premiere+ does not have this capability.
Back in September, it was reported that Vudu would offer content in HDR10 and Dolby Vision, and I thought I read that it had started, but looking around now, I can't seem to find verification of that. I'll adjust the article accordingly.

As for the Roku Ultra transcoding DD+ to DD, I'll verify that as well. Thanks for the tips!

Scott Wilkinson
Editor, AVS Forum
Scott Wilkinson is offline  
post #21 of 30 Old 12-09-2016, 03:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
Cal68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 916
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddyRich View Post
Yes. See below for all of the details.

https://support.google.com/chromecas.../3228332?hl=en
Thank you very much my friend. Much appreciated.

Cal68
Cal68 is offline  
post #22 of 30 Old 12-09-2016, 11:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Suntan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 7,225
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post
Thanks for the quick response. I am using a Dell PC and running a Chrome browser. Are you saying that if I got myself a Chromecast streamer and attach it to my TV, I will be able to stream anything that I see on my Dell desktop to my TV? That would be fantastic.
Just FYI, you can also cast stuff (including Chrome tabs) to recent roku players. Google for more info.
Suntan is offline  
post #23 of 30 Old 12-13-2016, 03:03 PM
Advanced Member
 
Aberk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NNW Atl Burbs
Posts: 642
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mashie Saldana View Post
A minor typo in the article:


I will get an Nvidia Shield for Christmas, not so much for streaming but for SPMC to play my existing content.
Good call. I love mine.
Aberk is offline  
post #24 of 30 Old 12-14-2016, 08:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 887
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked: 109
Thanks for the article. I have 4k HDR projector and I have been using Apple TV for many years it is time for me to upgrade to 4k HDR streamer like google chromcast ultra. Just want to confirm if I can directly connect google chromcast ultra into Marantz av7702 mk2 via HDMI as a media player? And is the google chromcast ultra the best in terms of 4k HDR film availability? Thx
Roudan is offline  
post #25 of 30 Old 01-06-2017, 10:09 AM
Member
 
Xolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well thought out article. It's laid out in a sensible format too.

I've tried several media streamers in my days. My first was a Boxee Box, if anyone remembers that one. It streamed SO MUCH!!! But alas they never came out with a version 2. And the 1st version was riddled with bugs. Because of it's ability to import so many 3rd party apps, it was the most useful device I have ever seen.

I've tried the Roku, WD TV, WD Live, Apple TV and the Raspberry Pi. None of them come close to what the Boxee offered.

I do still use my Raspberry Pi from time to time as it comes with a built in CEC adapter which allows you to use your TV's remote control (if your TV has a built in CEC adapter too) instead of needing another remote control cluttering up everything. However with the Raspberry Pi, the USB connections aren't powerful enough to run external HDD's. They just don't have enough electrical power to keep them spinning and search for data. They have no problem with USB sticks though.

So instead I opted to build a HTPC instead. It cost way more than the prepackaged media streamers, but it does SO MUCH MORE than any of them could possibly do. You can load it with Plex or Kodi, have tons of storage connected to it or connect it to a NAS/Server, and view pretty much any media streaming providers out there. Just to let people out there know that this is a possible route to go as well. Especially for the other comments about streaming from their PC's, this is definitely the way to go. They are relatively small, really quiet, and super powerful.

Sir, are you listed as human?
Negative! I am a meat popsicle.
Xolo is offline  
post #26 of 30 Old 01-08-2017, 09:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
K_Thompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 1,264
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked: 43
The new version of the Nvidia Shield (which runs on Android TV) coming out later this month will have Amazon video. Older models of the Shield will get Amazon video with a soon to be released software update.
K_Thompson is offline  
post #27 of 30 Old 01-22-2017, 03:02 PM
Advanced Member
 
dschulz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 796
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 675 Post(s)
Liked: 444
I just wish it was easier to find a streamer that supports true 24fps video. Apart from that, I'm happy with my Apple TV (supplemented by a PS3 handling Amazon duties).
dschulz is offline  
post #28 of 30 Old 01-22-2017, 03:22 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 8
Good article, but now that Roku and SHIELD boxes support Amazon Video, I'm starting to not see much point to the FireTV devices. I've used pretty much all platforms, and my own recommendations boil down to the following:

Best, no holds barred: SHIELD
Best on a budget: Roku Premier+
Best for Apple users: AppleTV

Any everyone should have a Chromecast in some form so guests can display their stuff if nothing else.
npaladin2000 is offline  
post #29 of 30 Old 01-23-2017, 02:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
TornadoTJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 7,515
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1723 Post(s)
Liked: 539
Quote:
Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
I just wish it was easier to find a streamer that supports true 24fps video. Apart from that, I'm happy with my Apple TV (supplemented by a PS3 handling Amazon duties).
I watch 24fps video on my NVidia Shield all the time. Plex and Kodi will auto-switch to 24fps. For now, if you want Netflix or Amazon on 24fps, you will have to manually switch it to 24fps.


Last edited by TornadoTJ; 01-23-2017 at 02:32 PM.
TornadoTJ is offline  
post #30 of 30 Old 02-04-2017, 03:12 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 1
Thanks for the article.
wurm02 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming

Tags
amazon fire tv , apple tv , chromecast , media streamer , Roku

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off