Apple TV 5 Supports 4K/UHD HDR with Many Movies on iTunes - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by saiko View Post
What is infuse?


It's an app. Similar to plex. It can decode hd audio and send it out as lpcm

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post #32 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Nobody is going to stream uncompressed surround-sound, certainly not Apple.


It's more for local content. And many players do support it.
An hd audio track is only around 3Mbps. The spec for dd+ allows for up to 6.4Mbps.

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post #33 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
However, I suspect that this is only for DD plus and not for TrueHD.
Its very stupid of apple imo since bitsream doesn't cost them a dime in licensing fees.
Suspect it is? You can bet every last dollar you have it is.

OK....

A. DD+ is bitstream
B. Going uncompressed adds bandwidth
C. The benefit is minor and requires a really good system to even begin to appreciate
D. Blu-rays still exist
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post #34 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
It's more for local content. And many players do support it.
An hd audio track is only around 3Mbps. The spec for dd+ allows for up to 6.4Mbps.
Ah, gotcha. Sure, I suppose that would be useful but with Apple you never know. It's a data point I'd like to have an answer to.

I'm curious how much Apple cares about catering to AV geeks, versus keeping things "simple." But, I'm not running out to buy one of these new Apple TVs. I left Apple's entertainment ecosystem years ago.

The same audio compressed will always have a lower bitrate than uncompressed. All that spec. means is that DD+ has the bandwidth to get the job done.
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post #35 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Suspect it is? You can bet every last dollar you have it is.



OK....



A. DD+ is bitstream

B. Going uncompressed adds bandwidth

C. The benefit is minor and requires a really good system to even begin to appreciate

D. Blu-rays still exist


Apple decodes dd+ before sending it out. It's not bitstreamed.
The benefit is certainly not minor and can be noticed even on lower end systems. I have two home theaters. One with very large speakers and another with very small bookshelf speakers. It makes a difference.

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post #36 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
Apple decodes dd+ before sending it out. It's not bitstreamed.
The benefit is certainly not minor and can be noticed even on lower end systems. I have two home theaters. One with very large speakers and another with very small bookshelf speakers. It makes a difference.
Oh lol I see what you are saying. Sure, who cares about audio bandwidth when we're sending it from the player to the display device. I was talking about how the audio arrives at the player. I don't even see what there is to discuss if the topic is decoded bitstream over HDMI or optical.

Regarding how audible the difference is, I've grown weary of the old "have you double-blind tested that?" debate. It's unwinnable.

But... the difficulty people have telling 320 kbps stereo apart from hi-res stereo is, to me, an indication that the subjective claims that uncompressed audio, be it stereo or surround-sound or 3D immersive audio makes an easily noticed difference "even on lower end systems" is not supported by anything but anecdote.

And for what it's worth, I get to hear some decent systems every now and then, lol.
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post #37 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:28 AM
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As far as I understand the problems with HD Audio and Atmos for the Apple TV is the Siri support. Siri is always able to speak over the sound of what your are watching. They do this by decoding DD/DD+ and then reencoding or sending it out as PCM.
With HD Audio and Atmos, this will be considerably more difficult, while the computing power is probably there now, the licensing costs for implementing on-the-fly encoding of TrueHD, Atmos, DTS-HDMA, DTS:X might be prohibitive.
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post #38 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Ah, gotcha. Sure, I suppose that would be useful but with Apple you never know. It's a data point I'd like to have an answer to.



I'm curious how much Apple cares about catering to AV geeks, versus keeping things "simple." But, I'm not running out to buy one of these new Apple TVs. I left Apple's entertainment ecosystem years ago.



The same audio compressed will always have a lower bitrate than uncompressed. All that spec. means is that DD+ has the bandwidth to get the job done.


You don't need to be in apples ecosystem to use an apple tv. I have no iTunes media and still feel the apple tv is one of the best streamers on the market. And I own almost all of them.

Either way, hd audio isn't using that much more bandwidth than dd+ is now. The bigger issue is that when streaming hd audio its bitrate can spike up occasionally which may affect the experience depending on a persons connection.

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post #39 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Suspect it is? You can bet every last dollar you have it is.

OK....

A. DD+ is bitstream
B. Going uncompressed adds bandwidth
C. The benefit is minor and requires a really good system to even begin to appreciate
D. Blu-rays still exist
Sorry I wasn't clear enough: With bitstreaming I was referring to DTS-HD and TrueHD.
DTS doesn't offer any 3D audio for streaming like Dolby does. So no DTS-HD support means to DTS:X support, either.
And don't forget the fact that you can use the ATV not only for streaming from the internet, but also locally rendering the bandwith argument useless. Again, it doesn't cost them a dime, so why not implement it?
I bet that a lot of people would buy it if they could use plex to stream their BDs with 3D/HD audio intact. However, these people are not Apple's targeted audience. And even then people who care that much about audio likely care about picture quality as well and the lack of 24p is just a no-go for AV enthusiasts.
But then again 3D is not supported, is it? I know many people call it dead, but I still have a lot of 3D movies which I want to be able to watch in the future.
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post #40 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I've grown weary of the old "have you double-blind tested that?" debate.

But... the difficulty people have telling 320 kbps stereo apart from hi-res stereo is, to me, an indication that the subjective claims that uncompressed audio, be it stereo or surround-sound or 3D immersive audio makes an easily noticed difference "even on lower end systems" is not supported by anything but anecdote.

And for what it's worth, I get to hear some decent systems every now and then, lol.
People here complaining about the lack of certain features are not the target market for this product. Apple want's to sell millions of them, not thousands.

It's the equivalent of posts on a gaming forum complaining about the lack of video card options for an iMac.
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post #41 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I've grown weary of the old "have you double-blind tested that?" debate.



But... the difficulty people have telling 320 kbps stereo apart from hi-res stereo is, to me, an indication that the subjective claims that uncompressed audio, be it stereo or surround-sound or 3D immersive audio makes an easily noticed difference "even on lower end systems" is not supported by anything but anecdote.



And for what it's worth, I get to hear some decent systems every now and then, lol.


DD+ streams from Netflix at 192kbps.
And with atmos it's not about bitrate but rather object vs channel based audio.
The difference is obvious.

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post #42 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:34 AM
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You don't need to be in apples ecosystem to use an apple tv. I have no iTunes media and still feel the apple tv is one of the best streamers on the market. And I own almost all of them.

Either way, hd audio isn't using that much more bandwidth than dd+ is now. The bigger issue is that when streaming hd audio its bitrate can spike up occasionally which may affect the experience depending on a persons connection.
Thanks to my job I've used a lot of devices. I even have a Kaleidescape Strato here right now.

Yes, Apple makes good stuff (I write with an iPad). But at the end of the day my Roku does everything I need it to, which is why personally it would make no sense for me to run out and buy this thing.

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post #43 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I've grown weary of the old "have you double-blind tested that?" debate.

But... the difficulty people have telling 320 kbps stereo apart from hi-res stereo is, to me, an indication that the subjective claims that uncompressed audio, be it stereo or surround-sound or 3D immersive audio makes an easily noticed difference "even on lower end systems" is not supported by anything but anecdote.

And for what it's worth, I get to hear some decent systems every now and then, lol.
I'm not going to argue if there is audible difference or not. In the end it doesn't really matter at all. The only aspect that is important is what people want (be it rational or irrational). And they want it, if they need it or not.

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As far as I understand the problems with HD Audio and Atmos for the Apple TV is the Siri support. Siri is always able to speak over the sound of what your are watching. They do this by decoding DD/DD+ and then reencoding or sending it out as PCM.
With HD Audio and Atmos, this will be considerably more difficult, while the computing power is probably there now, the licensing costs for implementing on-the-fly encoding of TrueHD, Atmos, DTS-HDMA, DTS:X might be prohibitive.
MS hat the same problem with the Xbox One. The fact that they needed to add the system sounds was the reason for no HD audio support when it launched. It was only later that they added it.
I get why Apple does it the way they are doing now. But they could at least make it optional and make it clear to the user that Siri is not available when HD audio is send.
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post #44 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:36 AM
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People here complaining about the lack of certain features are not the target market for this product. Apple want's to sell millions of them, not thousands.


If you want to sell more of something you add more features to appeal to a larger audience. Less features means a smaller audience.

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post #45 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:40 AM
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I'm not going to argue if there is audible difference or not. In the end it doesn't really matter at all. The only aspect that is important is what people want (be it rational or irrational). And they want it, if they need it or not.
Who wants it? Enough people to be statistically relevant to Apple? I think not. I'm guessing not, especially since other devices/products fill that niche. Otherwise, I'd expect Apple would also provide uncompressed 2-channel audio like Tidal does.
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I get why Apple does it the way they are doing now. But they could at least make it optional and make it clear to the user that Siri is not available when HD audio is send.
Yeah, I would love that as well, some sort of "Expert" mode, which also enables framerate/resolution switching (which Apple disabled because the TV will flicker while switching and display it's own gui, making it not look neat ).
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post #47 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:41 AM
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People here complaining about the lack of certain features are not the target market for this product. Apple want's to sell millions of them, not thousands.

It's the equivalent of posts on a gaming forum complaining about the lack of video card options for an iMac.
You are absolutely correct. We are such a tiny, tiny, tiny niche market, if we buy or don't buy a mass market item like this, Apple will never know -- or care.

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post #48 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
DD+ streams from Netflix at 192kbps.
And with atmos it's not about bitrate but rather object vs channel based audio.
The difference is obvious.
Source?
To my knowledge DD+ is only used for Atmos by Netflix (only Amazon uses DD+ for everything).
Everything else is just plain DD. For 5.1 audio they are using a bitrate of 384 kb/s. Couldn't find an example for 2.0 audio.

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The Verge wrote a pretty comprehensive review of the device. Sounds like it has forced upscaling of 1080p content to 4k, and doesn't do a good job of it. It has forced framerate conversion. It doesn't support YouTube 4k (and that doesn't appear on their roadmap). And it doesn't bitstream, though ATMOS support is "on the roadmap" (but not a definite enough plan that Apple will confirm that in public). And it will do interesting things like choose HDR10 over Dolby Vision if a device can handle HDR10 at 60p but DV at only 30p (which apparently is a thing on some TVs).

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/21/1...4k-review-2017
Interesting as The Verge is usually one of Apple's biggest marketing departments, eh I mean biggest fans.
Bad news about the upscaling. Very strange as somebody from the WSJ just wrote that he heard from a videophile that the PQ is great.

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If you want to sell more of something you add more features to appeal to a larger audience. Less features means a smaller audience.
Apple cares about features that have broad appeal, I don't think support for uncompressed surround-sound playback from locally-stored video files makes that list.
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If you want to sell more of something you add more features to appeal to a larger audience. Less features means a smaller audience.
That is not true, especially for technology products. The best-selling products typically have a limited number of things that they support and do very well. The products that have every single feature and option, are usually not the best selling one for multiple reasons.
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The Verge wrote a pretty comprehensive review of the device. Sounds like it has forced upscaling of 1080p content to 4k, and doesn't do a good job of it. It has forced framerate conversion. It doesn't support YouTube 4k (and that doesn't appear on their roadmap). And it doesn't bitstream, though ATMOS support is "on the roadmap" (but not a definite enough plan that Apple will confirm that in public). And it will do interesting things like choose HDR10 over Dolby Vision if a device can handle HDR10 at 60p but DV at only 30p (which apparently is a thing on some TVs).

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/21/1...4k-review-2017
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If you want to sell more of something you add more features to appeal to a larger audience. Less features means a smaller audience.
In general you are completely right. But apple is a special snowflake and they want to simplify everything. So for them it makes actually sense to remove options for the user so that the average Joe is not overwhelmed by all the settings.

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Who wants it? Enough people to be statistically relevant to Apple? I think not. I'm guessing not, especially since other devices/products fill that niche. Otherwise, I'd expect Apple would also provide uncompressed 2-channel audio like Tidal does.
I want it
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Apple cares about features that have broad appeal, I don't think support for uncompressed surround-sound playback from locally-stored video files makes that list.
This, it's silly to think that anyone outside the audiophile bubble give two craps about it.
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
The Verge wrote a pretty comprehensive review of the device. Sounds like it has forced upscaling of 1080p content to 4k, and doesn't do a good job of it. It has forced framerate conversion. It doesn't support YouTube 4k (and that doesn't appear on their roadmap). And it doesn't bitstream, though ATMOS support is "on the roadmap" (but not a definite enough plan that Apple will confirm that in public). And it will do interesting things like choose HDR10 over Dolby Vision if a device can handle HDR10 at 60p but DV at only 30p (which apparently is a thing on some TVs).

https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/21/1...4k-review-2017
I was amused at how Engadget breathlessly declared "Apple TV 4K hands-on: finally, no compromises"

But The Verge threw cold water on that assessment: "Apple TV 4K review: so close, so far" by saying: "But the new Apple TV doesn’t support Atmos. And it doesn’t support YouTube in 4K HDR. And it doesn’t have Disney or Marvel movies in 4K HDR. And it makes some 1080p content look less than great." - Ouch

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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
This, it's silly to think that anyone outside the audiophile bubble give two craps about it.


Sure. But it would sell more to those who do care who are not currently going to buy it due to missing features. More features appeal to a wider audience. Limiting features limits your audience.

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post #56 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Sledgehamma View Post
Source?

To my knowledge DD+ is only used for Atmos by Netflix (only Amazon uses DD+ for everything).

Everything else is just plain DD. For 5.1 audio they are using a bitrate of 384 kb/s. Couldn't find an example for 2.0 audio.


The source is your receiver. It can show you audio bitrate.
DD+ is used for everything on netflix and has been for years. The only time you'll see just DD is if your hardware doesn't support DD+
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post #57 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 07:01 AM
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Sure. But it would sell more to those who do care who are not currently going to buy it due to missing features. More features appeal to a wider audience. Limiting features limits your audience.
Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make: Apple knows their audience and it's not audiophiles who want uncompressed audio, etc.

Do I wish it had more audio options and features? Hell yes, but it doesn't and that's just the way it is whether or not we like it.

“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me” - Gordon Holt
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post #58 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make: Apple knows their audience and it's not audiophiles who want uncompressed audio, etc.


And i'm telling you that all these people not buying it due to missing features would buy it if it had those features thus more sales. Simple math.

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post #59 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
Sure. But it would sell more to those who do care who are not currently going to buy it due to missing features. More features appeal to a wider audience. Limiting features limits your audience.
The "limited audience" is HUGE. The "wider audience" is tiny. It is easy for AVSers to sometimes think we are more in numbers than reality would suggest. If Apple could sell 2,000 more onto a market of 10,000,000, do they care? If the 2000 number becomes 10,000, do they care? I have no reason to believe that the market for the high end features we want is anywhere near 10,000 --- or 100,000 and even if it were, what does it cost Apple to increase sales by .1% or 1%.

We are way too small for Apple to give a darn. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay toooooooooooooo small!!!

If you don't believes me, out of every single person you know or have ever known, how many have systems that could even come close to demonstrating the difference?

If you know anyone in the HT/video/high end audio business (which I was and too a lesser extent still am), they can confirm that the masses (98% or more) use TV sound or sound bars and are perfectly content with that. And THAT is Apple's market.
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post #60 of 575 Old 09-21-2017, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
And i'm telling you that all these people not buying it due to missing features would buy it if it had those features thus more sales. Simple math.
LOL, this can be said for any product ever made. It's not simple math. It's very complex math that involves lots of people with advanced degrees and actual business experience.

"all these people not buying it due to missing features", those few thousands of people(on the high end), are not worth it for Apple to add the additional features. If it were, they would add them, simple as that.

They are selling MILLIONS of these to regular people and that is who the product is aimed at.
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“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me” - Gordon Holt

Last edited by duckymomo; 09-21-2017 at 07:09 AM.
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