Eureka LX350 HD High Definition Wireless Media Center with DVI? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 239 Old 12-06-2006, 08:43 PM
Member
 
amgra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here are three more pics
LL
LL
LL
amgra is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 239 Old 12-06-2006, 08:44 PM
Member
 
amgra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The last three I promise
It seems I have the las revision of the device, it already have NDAS icon on the menu
LL
LL
LL
amgra is offline  
post #93 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 05:15 AM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Has anyone upgraded to the European Iamm firmware version 1.40 on their Eureka? If so, how did it work out? Any advantages? Any compatibility issues?

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #94 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 07:53 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Looks like the newer units have NDAS.
Many of us who bought the first wave of units expecting that future firmwares would provide network access to the h/d in the Eureka (and this was mentioned by a tech with Zio in Canada). Are we hosed now?
Sankar is offline  
post #95 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 09:24 AM
Senior Member
 
mlm39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Harrison Twp. MI
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Questions,

1. Can it be laid on it's side?

2. Can you play photos and Mp3 at same time?

3. During slideshow, how long is pause between photos?

4 Is there a fade in/out?

5. Can slide duration be selected?

6. Are photos shown in HD?

7. Can thumbnails and album cover art be displayed?

8. Does it handle playlists?


Thanks
mlm39 is offline  
post #96 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 01:47 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
1. Can it be laid on it's side?

NOT REALLY SINCE THE BASE IS SLIGHTLY ROUNDED.


2. Can you play photos and Mp3 at same time?

I BELIEVE THE ANSWER IS YES.


3. During slideshow, how long is pause between photos?

THIS IS CONFIGURABLE WITH THE SHORTEST PAUSE BEING 3 SECONDS.


4 Is there a fade in/out?

OF WHAT?


5. Can slide duration be selected?

I THINK THIS IS THE SAME AS 3 ABOVE.


6. Are photos shown in HD?

I'M NOT SURE. I WOULD ASSUME THEORETICALLY YES.


7. Can thumbnails and album cover art be displayed?

SORRY, NOT SURE.


8. Does it handle playlists?

HAVEN'T TRIED IT BUT I THINK IT DOES.

ANYONE CARE TO ADD TO MY RESPONSES?

ANTHONY
analli is offline  
post #97 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 01:50 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

Looks like the newer units have NDAS.
Many of us who bought the first wave of units expecting that future firmwares would provide network access to the h/d in the Eureka (and this was mentioned by a tech with Zio in Canada). Are we hosed now?

The very friendly folks at Zio Canada (Hantech Corporation) are willing to accept LX350HD units in their original packaging and complete with all accessories and exchange them for a LX350HD-N for a fee of $50.

I thought this was quite reasonable and exchanged both of my units.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #98 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 02:49 PM
Newbie
 
screamer369's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by analli View Post

The very friendly folks at Zio Canada (Hantech Corporation) are willing to accept LX350HD units in their original packaging and complete with all accessories and exchange them for a LX350HD-N for a fee of $50.

I thought this was quite reasonable and exchanged both of my units.

Anthony

Gee I hope the one I have in transit to me is of the new LX350HD-N Variety you mentioned. I'd hate to have to return or exchange it, especially if It costs me an extra $50.

Kerry
screamer369 is offline  
post #99 of 239 Old 12-07-2006, 02:58 PM
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by analli View Post

The very friendly folks at Zio Canada (Hantech Corporation) are willing to accept LX350HD units in their original packaging and complete with all accessories and exchange them for a LX350HD-N for a fee of $50.

I thought this was quite reasonable and exchanged both of my units.

Anthony

This is indeed reasonable. I'll call them and find out.
Incidently, did you have to pay for shipping both ways also?
Sankar is offline  
post #100 of 239 Old 12-08-2006, 06:10 AM
Member
 
amgra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlm39 View Post

Questions,

1. Can it be laid on it's side?

2. Can you play photos and Mp3 at same time?

3. During slideshow, how long is pause between photos?

4 Is there a fade in/out?

5. Can slide duration be selected?

6. Are photos shown in HD?

7. Can thumbnails and album cover art be displayed?

8. Does it handle playlists?


Thanks

This was already answered by Analli but just to confirm 2 answers:

Answer 4: YES (fade in/out to photos)
Answer 7: NO (at least I haven't read about it in the manual)
Answer 8: Yes

Let me comment once more, this is a great unit so far with my 5 days of testing, it takes 1sec to start playing .ISO DVD via Wired LAN wow, wow, wow, Just to mount the .ISO in my computer would take me 4sec just to choose the file in DaemonTools plus 2-3sec autoplay to start.
This weekend I am going to install a HardDisk, but I think it is going to be all the same.
amgra is offline  
post #101 of 239 Old 12-08-2006, 06:48 AM
Senior Member
 
mlm39's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Harrison Twp. MI
Posts: 246
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Please clarify...

3. During slideshow, how long is pause between photos?

By this question i meant, is there a lag (other than the fade) between the time a photo disapears from the screen and when the next one is fully displayed?

6. Are photos shown in HD?

This one is important to me. Some units display HD video but only SD photos.
In HD, photos should be razor sharp - no jaggies.Can someone please try this?
mlm39 is offline  
post #102 of 239 Old 12-08-2006, 09:01 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlm39 View Post

Please clarify...

3. During slideshow, how long is pause between photos?

By this question i meant, is there a lag (other than the fade) between the time a photo disapears from the screen and when the next one is fully displayed?

6. Are photos shown in HD?

This one is important to me. Some units display HD video but only SD photos.
In HD, photos should be razor sharp - no jaggies.Can someone please try this?

For the pause I would say that there is no discernable pause - less than a second. This is over 100 Mbit though. Over 10 Mbit there may be a short pause as the photo loads (if it's large).

It appears to me that the photos are shown in SD. Mind you I'm watching on a 97" projection screen but there is clearly a difference between the quality of the video and the quality of the photos.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #103 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 06:06 AM
Newbie
 
nmolenbeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
anthony,

What is the firmware version of yor box?? mine is 1.32

Nico
nmolenbeek is offline  
post #104 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 06:50 AM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
My LX350HD-N came with 1.32 loaded on it but I'm told that 1.42 will be available next week on Zio Canada's new and improved website.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #105 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 12:08 PM
Member
 
clasami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by analli View Post

The very friendly folks at Zio Canada (Hantech Corporation) are willing to accept LX350HD units in their original packaging and complete with all accessories and exchange them for a LX350HD-N for a fee of $50.

I thought this was quite reasonable and exchanged both of my units.

Anthony

Why is this reasonable? The NDAS-Feature is a software solution implemented through firmware (unless Zio Canada has implemented a hardware solution which I doubt - it is the same as the IAMM). Charging $50 for the same piece of harware with new firmware does not sound reasonable at all. The new ones, I understand, come with firmware 1.32 and NDAS should have been implemented from 1.29 onwards. All Zio Canda needs to provide to the proud owners of older boxes is the code and theread/write key to make the NDAS solution work. Plus you need to install the Ximeta driver on your PC (can be downloaded at their website).

Michael
clasami is offline  
post #106 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 12:48 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I see your point. Zio Canada did offer me a free solution. That was to send them the MAC address of my LX250HD. They would get updated firmware specific to my unit that would enable the NDAS. The downside as I saw it was that when newer firmware was released I would again need to resubmit the request to enable NDAS for my MAC address.

Switching to a newer unit seems to eliminate this.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #107 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 02:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by clasami View Post

Why is this reasonable? The NDAS-Feature is a software solution implemented through firmware (unless Zio Canada has implemented a hardware solution which I doubt - it is the same as the IAMM). Charging $50 for the same piece of harware with new firmware does not sound reasonable at all. The new ones, I understand, come with firmware 1.32 and NDAS should have been implemented from 1.29 onwards. All Zio Canda needs to provide to the proud owners of older boxes is the code and theread/write key to make the NDAS solution work. Plus you need to install the Ximeta driver on your PC (can be downloaded at their website).

Michael

After my last post, I rethought the "reasonableness" of this and decided it was not fair. Quite honestly I bought the unit because the tech had indicated that a firmware was on its way that would allow me to access the h'd from the network ... I do not think that its fair for them to expect me (or anyone one else) to pay again. After all the product is barely a couple of months old!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by analli View Post

That was to send them the MAC address of my LX250HD. They would get updated firmware specific to my unit that would enable the NDAS. The downside as I saw it was that when newer firmware was released I would again need to resubmit the request to enable NDAS for my MAC address.

Did you ask them why they couldn't just give you the internal code that you could use going forward?
Btw, who did you speak to? It would help to have a name ...

Thx
Sankar is offline  
post #108 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 03:01 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I spoke to Jake, but it's a small company and anyone there can be of help I'm sure.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #109 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 03:02 PM
Member
 
clasami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The code and read/write key are box specific (tied to the MAC address) and don't change with firmeware updates.

Michael
clasami is offline  
post #110 of 239 Old 12-09-2006, 05:21 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Honestly, the way I saw it was I wasn't getting a refund or exchange from the retailer (without having to pay a "restocking" fee) so I could either be stuck with the "old" version or take advantage of an opportunity to get the "new" version.

I'm not crazy about the $50 fee, particularly since I have TWO Eureka's. I would have paid $25 without a peep. I asked about a price reduction and was denied.

I agree that since we were told NDAS would become available as a firmware update, we are entitled. But with limited options I elected for the simplest one. The cost of being "the first kid on the block" I guess.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #111 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 01:45 AM
Newbie
 
gav_rs250's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: U.K
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hi all - great forum,
I've just got the European version IAMM with firmware version 1.40 & 320Gb Hdd pre-installed. I can't get the NDAS to work, I can see all of my P.C's shared drives via the 54Mb wireless link and can stream ok from them, but the NDAS wont see the IAMM/LX350HD HDD, it registers the read write key etc ok. Tried turning firewalls off completely on the P.C's, but still no joy - has anyone got NDAS to work yet or is this another firmware release away ?

P.S Also while viewing Xvid movies I sometimes get distorted audio - this is via the optical o/p to my 5.1 surround sound system, is this common ?

Thanks,
Gav
gav_rs250 is offline  
post #112 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 01:30 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I can't say that I've experienced either of these problems. For the audio issue I'd say it's either bad data, a bad connection, or slow (if you're wireless). For the NDAS, I'd try rebooting the system, double checking that the setup was performed correctly, and maybe even enabling flie sharing. I'm not really sure what the problem is but if the setup isn't performed as necessary it could account for it.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #113 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 02:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by analli View Post

Honestly, the way I saw it was I wasn't getting a refund or exchange from the retailer (without having to pay a "restocking" fee) so I could either be stuck with the "old" version or take advantage of an opportunity to get the "new" version.

I'm not crazy about the $50 fee, particularly since I have TWO Eureka's. I would have paid $25 without a peep. I asked about a price reduction and was denied.

I agree that since we were told NDAS would become available as a firmware update, we are entitled. But with limited options I elected for the simplest one. The cost of being "the first kid on the block" I guess.

Anthony

I spoke with Byron at Hantech today about getting NDAS on my older unit. He said that there were two options available to me:
  1. Send them my unit and they send me a new unit. But now they would need to sell my unit as refurbished (for a lower price). They are charging $50 to cover this. The turn around would be 2 days in this case once they receive the old unit.
  2. Send them the MAC address for the current unit by email and then they would send the read/write code and associated software to me (by email). Once they get that to me, it would be a permanent fix ... i.e. I could use it with new firmwares as well. The only issue was that they would need to get the code themselves from someone else (NDAS supplier?) and the lead time could be a month or so.

With the first option I would need to pack everything, send it in and stay without the unit for a week or so. Plus pay $50 and shipping one way. Byron said that they are offering this since some customers may not be willing to wait the month or two it could take.

With the second option, it would take me a month (or at most 2) to get NDAS but its free and there is no downtime. I've chosen to go with this option ... I'm willing to wait a month. When I send them my MAC address, I'll reconfirm that the fix is permanent ...

I think that this is fair.
Sankar is offline  
post #114 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 03:20 PM
Member
 
clasami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gav_rs250 View Post

Hi all - great forum,
I've just got the European version IAMM with firmware version 1.40 & 320Gb Hdd pre-installed. I can't get the NDAS to work, I can see all of my P.C's shared drives via the 54Mb wireless link and can stream ok from them, but the NDAS wont see the IAMM/LX350HD HDD, it registers the read write key etc ok. Tried turning firewalls off completely on the P.C's, but still no joy - has anyone got NDAS to work yet or is this another firmware release away ?

P.S Also while viewing Xvid movies I sometimes get distorted audio - this is via the optical o/p to my 5.1 surround sound system, is this common ?

Thanks,
Gav

Did you use the correct code and key? The box comes with codes and keys for both, LAN and WLAN. The WLAN Code and key is on the inside of the HD-compartemnet.

Lower the volume on the IAMM. The indicator in the volume bar on the screen should be in middle or below, not all the way to the right.

Michael
clasami is offline  
post #115 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 03:23 PM
Member
 
clasami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankar View Post

I spoke with Byron at Hantech today about getting NDAS on my older unit. He said that there were two options available to me:
  1. Send them my unit and they send me a new unit. But now they would need to sell my unit as refurbished (for a lower price). They are charging $50 to cover this. The turn around would be 2 days in this case once they receive the old unit.
  2. Send them the MAC address for the current unit by email and then they would send the read/write code and associated software to me (by email). Once they get that to me, it would be a permanent fix ... i.e. I could use it with new firmwares as well. The only issue was that they would need to get the code themselves from someone else (NDAS supplier?) and the lead time could be a month or so.

With the first option I would need to pack everything, send it in and stay without the unit for a week or so. Plus pay $50 and shipping one way. Byron said that they are offering this since some customers may not be willing to wait the month or two it could take.

With the second option, it would take me a month (or at most 2) to get NDAS but its free and there is no downtime. I've chosen to go with this option ... I'm willing to wait a month. When I send them my MAC address, I'll reconfirm that the fix is permanent ...

I think that this is fair.

The second option, while fair, speaks to the slow reaction of the manufacturer to requests even by their distributors. Once wrote them a mail with a suggestion for improvement but never heard back. Doubt that Novatron (manufacturer of the IAMM and - I guess- of the Eureka will ever come up with improvements in the firmware - just bug fixes.

Michael
clasami is offline  
post #116 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 08:34 PM
Member
 
analli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was given information that the NDAS addition would be wiped out on a subsequent firmware update but I concur that this really doesn't make sense. I drove my 2 units over to Hantech and did the swap. If I had to lose the use of the device for any period of time by shipping it I wouldn't have done it and would have chosen the other option.

I wasn't jumping at the notion of waiting for a month for the custom solution. Two months? No way. Glad I paid the fee and swapped them out in person. One less thing on my "things to do" list.

Anthony
analli is offline  
post #117 of 239 Old 12-11-2006, 11:43 PM
Member
 
clasami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by analli View Post

I was given information that the NDAS addition would be wiped out on a subsequent firmware update but I concur that this really doesn't make sense. I drove my 2 units over to Hantech and did the swap. If I had to lose the use of the device for any period of time by shipping it I wouldn't have done it and would have chosen the other option.

I wasn't jumping at the notion of waiting for a month for the custom solution. Two months? No way. Glad I paid the fee and swapped them out in person. One less thing on my "things to do" list.

Anthony

Glad to see that money is not an issue for you. Just don't think that you will like what you get in terms of NDAS. NDAS is implemented on the device as a software solution. As such, it is terribly slow, so slow in fact that you will hardly ever transfer any large files to the box by using NDAS. NDAS also has a tendency to crash the box (mostly if people disconnect or shut down the box before the transfer is done. Beware: The closing of the Windows copy box does not neccessarily indicate that the transfer process is done). The only god thing about NDAS is that with it you can share the box as a drive on the network. Transfer from the box using NDAS is ok. It appears to be the writing to disk that's slow.

Michael
clasami is offline  
post #118 of 239 Old 12-12-2006, 04:50 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sankar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 843
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by clasami View Post

Transfer from the box using NDAS is ok. It appears to be the writing to disk that's slow.

Michael

Maybe these will get fixed in a subsequent firmware ... ?
Sankar is offline  
post #119 of 239 Old 12-12-2006, 09:08 AM
Member
 
clasami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 31
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wouldn't hold my breath. For once, the manufacturer appears to have little interest to improve firmware apart from bug fixing, secondly, the processing power of the box may just not allow for much of an improvement.

Michael
clasami is offline  
post #120 of 239 Old 12-13-2006, 04:56 AM
Newbie
 
gav_rs250's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: U.K
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by clasami View Post

Did you use the correct code and key? The box comes with codes and keys for both, LAN and WLAN. The WLAN Code and key is on the inside of the HD-compartemnet.

Lower the volume on the IAMM. The indicator in the volume bar on the screen should be in middle or below, not all the way to the right.

Michael

Michael,

Thanks for that got NDAS working, I didnt know about the second code + key - would have spotted it I hadnt been lazy and had the HDD pre-intalled by the seller !
You're also right - its dog slow downloading from my PC, it would be quicker to fire up my laptop and use USB to load new media.

Gav.
gav_rs250 is offline  
Reply Networking, Media Servers & Content Streaming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off