LCD and Plasma and Eye Problems. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 10-19-2008, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been having some ongoing eye problems. It's mainly certain type of light that causes light sensitivity in my eyes. If I get under fluorescent lights it really bothers me. I start blinking and my eyes get a scratchy/burning feeling and want to blink like mad. I've been going to the eye doctor and changed my glasses and tried all kinds of drops but so far nothing has helped. I'm going for another appointment tomorrow.

One thing I've noticed is I can sit in my bedroom and type,game,browse the net on my Dell 24" LCD and not have any symptons at all. This is sitting right in front of me. I even have a 40" Toshiba LCD for PS3/360 gaming in the same room (6' away) and I'll have some slight eye watering while gaming but no light sensitivity. If I get up and walk over to the den where I have my Panasonic 50" PZ85U plasma and sit in a recliner (day or night) 15' away I start having the same symptoms as I do in other types of light (Fluorscents/Outside Glare) and start getting the scratchy/burning/blinking feeling. I've turned the brightness/contrast way down and it makes no difference at all. Tried lights on/off,backlight and saw no changes in my eyes.

Needless to say this has not only put a serious crimp in my regular activities but my movie and TV watching. My question is can the difference in a LCD and plasma contribute to this problem? I guess I'm asking is there something in the way a plasma is made compared to a LCD set that might cause me to see the same symptons as when I get under fluorescent lights? Does that make sense what I'm trying to get at?

I had a 55" Sony SXRD before this and never had any problems watching it and it was a much brighter set than the Panasonic. I got the Panasonic in April but these symptons didn't start till late June. I was all set to get a new Panasonic 58PZ800U but have been holding off till I get to the root of the problem.

Something is causing my eyes to do this and hopefully they will find out what it is and soon. I don't think the TV caused of the problem but maybe the design of the TV can make the ongoing problems worse. This has been nagging at me so I thought I might see what the experts here think.

Thanks for any insights

Jim
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post #2 of 40 Old 10-19-2008, 06:47 PM
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You could be sensitive to 60Hz strobbing (duty cycle flicker). Does a CRT bother you?

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #3 of 40 Old 10-19-2008, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a 31" Panasonic CRT TV in another room I watch morning news on and yes it gives me the same sensation. It's usually totally dark when I watch it in the morning and it get the same feelings as I do with the other TV.

Never noticed it before these problems started

Jim
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post #4 of 40 Old 10-20-2008, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Went to the eye doctor again today and still didn't learn anything new. He is giving me a referral to and eye specialist.

Any other thoughts on the TV's ?

Jim
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post #5 of 40 Old 10-21-2008, 10:43 PM
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Hey man You need to consult a doctor. There are no such problems with these sets. plz go to a doctor as soon as possible.

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post #6 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 08:58 AM
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I just went from HD CRT to 46" LCD (Samsung 650). It's been bothering my eyes too, while my 20" LCD monitor never bothers me.

You might try sitting closer to the plasma - your eyes might actually be straining to see it.

In my case I think it's the motion that bothers me - vs a PC monitor which is usually stationary images.
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post #7 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 09:40 AM
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For what it's worth, LCDs with fluorescent backlights just tear my eyes up. It doesn't matter if it's a PC monitor or a TV, regardless of how I set the backlight I get massive eye strain. Sure it's worse at high light levels, but I still can't avoid it.

LED LCD and plasma both seem fine and don't bother me in the least. Nor does CRT technology.

All of our eyes are different so don't expect yours to necessarily behave like everyone else. Just get them checked out by a doctor and find a technology that works for you.
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post #8 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 10:06 AM
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My guesses would be:

1) the already mentioned senstivity to 60Hz flicker; the sensitivity to flourescents tells me this is an issue. I dislike flourescents and don't like to watch any 60Hz CRT or plasma due to the flicker. I also dislike any color sequential display (like single panel DLPs) due to the color breakup. Persistance of vision (the eye's temporal response) varies somewhat between individuals, and some people, like you and I, seem to have eye that respond quicker and makes us sensitive to such light sources.

2) The angular Field of View (FOV) of the display; in the case of the plasma, even though it's the largest, you're much further away, and it subtends a smaller angular FOV. Pupilary dilation is based on the average luminace over a large (30+ degree) FOV. When you're close to the display (and it subtends a large angular FOV) your pupil constricts to a size appropriate for the luminance of the image. When you're further away, and the display appears smaller, your pupil adapts to the background luminance as well; it the display is significantly brighter or dimmer that the background, this can cause eye strain (I have an ambient backlight behind my SXRD RPTV). Since you've tried different brightness and lighting configurations, you might be able to rule this out.

3) Do you require corrective eywear? Are you myopic (near-sighted)? If your vision is undercorrected by a Diopter or more, you'll be struggling to accommodate (focus) on the plasma which further away.

These are my thoughts; hope it helps...

W. Lee Hendrick
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post #9 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wleehendrick View Post

2) The angular Field of View (FOV) of the display; in the case of the plasma, even though it's the largest, you're much further away, and it subtends a smaller angular FOV. Pupilary dilation is based on the average luminace over a large (30+ degree) FOV. When you're close to the display (and it subtends a large angular FOV) your pupil constricts to a size appropriate for the luminance of the image. When you're further away, and the display appears smaller, your pupil adapts to the background luminance as well; it the display is significantly brighter or dimmer that the background, this can cause eye strain (I have an ambient backlight behind my SXRD RPTV). Since you've tried different brightness and lighting configurations, you might be able to rule this out.

I bet that's my problem - the larger display (34" to 46", at 8 ft) - is dilating my pupils too much. Will try playing around with lighting, thanks!
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post #10 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post

I've been having some ongoing eye problems. It's mainly certain type of light that causes light sensitivity in my eyes. If I get under fluorescent lights it really bothers me. I start blinking and my eyes get a scratchy/burning feeling and want to blink like mad. I've been going to the eye doctor and changed my glasses and tried all kinds of drops but so far nothing has helped. I'm going for another appointment tomorrow.

One thing I've noticed is I can sit in my bedroom and type,game,browse the net on my Dell 24" LCD and not have any symptons at all. This is sitting right in front of me. I even have a 40" Toshiba LCD for PS3/360 gaming in the same room (6' away) and I'll have some slight eye watering while gaming but no light sensitivity. If I get up and walk over to the den where I have my Panasonic 50" PZ85U plasma and sit in a recliner (day or night) 15' away I start having the same symptoms as I do in other types of light (Fluorscents/Outside Glare) and start getting the scratchy/burning/blinking feeling. I've turned the brightness/contrast way down and it makes no difference at all. Tried lights on/off,backlight and saw no changes in my eyes.

Needless to say this has not only put a serious crimp in my regular activities but my movie and TV watching. My question is can the difference in a LCD and plasma contribute to this problem? I guess I'm asking is there something in the way a plasma is made compared to a LCD set that might cause me to see the same symptons as when I get under fluorescent lights? Does that make sense what I'm trying to get at?

I had a 55" Sony SXRD before this and never had any problems watching it and it was a much brighter set than the Panasonic. I got the Panasonic in April but these symptons didn't start till late June. I was all set to get a new Panasonic 58PZ800U but have been holding off till I get to the root of the problem.

Something is causing my eyes to do this and hopefully they will find out what it is and soon. I don't think the TV caused of the problem but maybe the design of the TV can make the ongoing problems worse. This has been nagging at me so I thought I might see what the experts here think.

Thanks for any insights

Jim

Have you changed the "lighting" in the room. My dad has Fluorscents installed in their den ceiling fan..........drive me nuts from the flicker (the have a DLP TV). They also have fluorscents in the home office room - cant' look at the Dell LCD monitor because of the strobing flicker - major headache.

Just putting in regular old light bulbs solved both problems.

Also, when some bulbs go bad (could last a few months before they go out), they can start strobing.
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post #11 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 10:55 AM
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Another funny thing about TV flicker.

We had a high priced 2008 Samsung LCD that filickered badly under odrinary lights, none of us in the family could stand to watch it - a plasma 800U replaced that set with no problem.

We also have a 10 year old Dell UltraSharp 19" LCD on the computer and their is zero flicker on it. This 10 year old monitor produced a much better picture than the newer expensive LCD TV (it went back - gave up on it)
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post #12 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I actually did make a appointment with my regular MD before I go to the eye specialist. My regular eye doctor can't find anything wrong with my eyes so I thought I might try my regular MD just to rule some things out.

Just to answer a few of your questions.

We haven't changed anything in the room. Same lighting we've always had. I bought a plamsa set mainly because I wanted to avoid some of the LCD drawbacks (motion blur and brightness) and liked the overall look of them better.


I thought about the distance I am from the set and FOV. I really wanted a 58" set when I bought last April but they were not out yet and I had a CC return credit from a broken TV I had to use by a certain date so I thought I could live with a 50" set.

Just a side note I bought the Plamsa set in April and didn't really start having these symptons till the first part of July. It would almost seem if the TV was causing issues I would have seen them sooner. I know (or think I do) something else is causing the actual problem but I wondered if the actual type of TV was making the issue worse.


I do wear corrective lenses. Just got new ones because my prescription had changed but it didn't make any difference with the problem I'm having. I wear progressive bifocals for near and far correction and I have a real bad astigmatism and I have prism added to correct my eyes wanting to see double images. Doc says I have a pretty healthy prescription going on I think they are just going to give me coke bottles next time I go in

I'll keep searching and if I have to try a different TV it would be worth it to me. I might try watching some racing on the Toshiba 40" LCD this weekend from different distances and see how it feels. I tried moving a little closer to the Panasonic plasma the other day but it still seemed way too bright to my eyes and this is with the settings turned way down. Very frustrating

Anyway thanks again for the responses. I really do appreciate the input.

Any other questions or suggestions please keep them coming.

Jim
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post #13 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 07:08 PM
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Something that I experienced when I had my bout with the LCD...

Once my eyes got messed up from the LCD, I found myself oversensitive to EVERYTHING. Things that had never bothered my eyes were furthering the problem. At the instruction of my eye doctor I stayed home, avoided the TV, and missed several days of work. At all costs I stayed out of fluorescent lighting.

That's pretty much what it took to get better. Then I could go back to normal activities like nothing happened.
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post #14 of 40 Old 10-22-2008, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

Something that I experienced when I had my bout with the LCD...

Once my eyes got messed up from the LCD, I found myself oversensitive to EVERYTHING. Things that had never bothered my eyes were furthering the problem. At the instruction of my eye doctor I stayed home, avoided the TV, and missed several days of work. At all costs I stayed out of fluorescent lighting.

That's pretty much what it took to get better. Then I could go back to normal activities like nothing happened.

Interesting. Haven't tried that. I'll mention something along those lines to my Doc and makbe get a note for work. Heck I'll try anything to get better at this point.

Thanks,

Jim

Forgot to ask. Do you still have a LCD?
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post #15 of 40 Old 10-23-2008, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post

Interesting. Haven't tried that. I'll mention something along those lines to my Doc and makbe get a note for work. Heck I'll try anything to get better at this point.

Thanks,

Jim

Forgot to ask. Do you still have a LCD?

No LCDs here other than my laptop. Dunno what I'll do when my 22" CRT dies for my PC. I'll prob try an LED LCD.
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post #16 of 40 Old 10-23-2008, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brentsg View Post

Something that I experienced when I had my bout with the LCD...

Once my eyes got messed up from the LCD, I found myself oversensitive to EVERYTHING. Things that had never bothered my eyes were furthering the problem. At the instruction of my eye doctor I stayed home, avoided the TV, and missed several days of work. At all costs I stayed out of fluorescent lighting.

I have the same problem - next day driving the sun hurt my eyes, and my LCD monitor did too (normally never does).

How did you solve that, get plasma? I still have time to return the LCD.
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post #17 of 40 Old 10-24-2008, 05:44 PM
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Going all the way down to Backlight = 3 seems to have helped my eye strain with my 650 LCD. I'm now using the straight CNET settings (previously i had pumped up backlight to 4).

maybe LCDs are just too bright.
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post #18 of 40 Old 10-24-2008, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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That's one of the reasons I didn't buy an LCD set was I felt they might be too harsh on my eyes. My 55" SXRD set I had could be pretty bright but I never had any problems like I'm having now.

Jim
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post #19 of 40 Old 10-24-2008, 07:21 PM
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Yes I bought a plasma. I can use it at the same brightness level that I had the LCD, but without any issues.
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post #20 of 40 Old 10-25-2008, 04:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post

I've been having some ongoing eye problems. It's mainly certain type of light that causes light sensitivity in my eyes. If I get under fluorescent lights it really bothers me.

I guess I'm asking is there something in the way a plasma is made compared to a LCD set that might cause me to see the same symptons as when I get under fluorescent lights?

Thanks for any insights

Jim

Change the tubes to full spectrum fluorecsent.

Full spectrum lighting has proven that its much easier to tolerate. These fluorescents have all the colors in the spectrum and are much easier on the eyes. Also proven to reduce headaches.

These are just my opinions.
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post #21 of 40 Old 08-31-2009, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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This is an old thread but thought I'd update things.

Since all of this started I've been to numerous doctors and a couple of eye specialists. Tried all kinds of drop and medicines. Nothing has really made the problem go away. Some days are better than others and I've noticed certain lights or situations make things worse. Some nights TV/Movie watching on my Panasonic TH-50PZ85U Plasma didn't bother me at all and other nights I blinked and squinted like crazy. I always watch with a backlight and contrast/brightness lowered quite a bit. Which leads me to today.

Friday I sold my 50" Plasma because the opportunity came up and I got a good price for it. I always wanted to go larger because I sit about 15' away from the screen. I planned on getting a new Panasonic 58V10 and went to BB on Saturday to get one. Of course they didn't have any on display and none in stock. I decided to wait and see if there are any Labor Day sales going on.

Since I won't have a TV for at least a week or longer I moved my Toshiba 40RF350U LCD set from the bedroom to the living room. Something I noticed in the last two nights of TV watching is I haven't been blinking or having any eye discomfort at all. It really has me wondering if there is something about watching a plasma makes my eyes act up much like the fluorescent lights at work do. I would think a LCD set would be worse on them but like I said earlier I can sit in front of a LCD monitor all day and night and never have an issue. Very strange.

Anyway I know most won't care about my ramblings here but I thought I'd post my thoughts anyway

I'll see how the week progresses with the LCD watching and if and problems return.

Jim
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post #22 of 40 Old 08-31-2009, 11:20 PM
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Hello Jim,

I suspect the 60 Hz strobing effect is causing your eye problems. Plasma TVs and conventional (long) fluorescent lamps have this problem. Most LCD TVs use a fluorescent backlight but the switching frequency is very high (> 20 KHz) and does not cause this strobing problem. Be aware that some LCD TVs (240 Hz) do modulate the backlight at 60 to 120 Hz to improve the motion resolution and may cause problems with your eyes.

Daniel Lang
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post #23 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 02:03 AM
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Well i think you are getting the eyes strain due to the properties of the plasma or even a CRT.
in a plasma when small portions of white images are shown its brightness is higher,when the percentage of white in the image increases the brightness will reduce .
like the images below notice the "Pixar animation studios" its much brighter in the plasma ,to me thats uncomfortable for my eyes.
from panasonic G10.


samsung lcd.


both


again in the below images notice the menu /UI is so bright in the plasma which is on the top


these images was taken by cleverland plasma.
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post #24 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 07:01 AM
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I'm sorry to say that IMHO the vision changes you are experiencing are due to age and not the technology of the particular HDTV that is in use. AMD or age-related macular degeneration affects about 20% of the population by age 65. People with a genetic pre-disposition to the condition may have problems as early as the late 30's, the rapidly changing eyeglass prescription is another symptom.

There are studies going on that seem to indicate that AMD is slowed by a diet rich in Vitamin E, Zinc, and Beta Carotenes. I would consult with a doctor about dietary changes, rather than attempting such myself.

Simple eye fatigue is the cause of some of your symptoms. Most people are helped by a technique know as "bias lighting". This can be as simple as wrapping a couple of loops of rope lighting around the HDTV wall mount. The indirect light surrounds the HDTV and causes pupil constriction. This in turn allows a brighter image setting to be used. But to effectively use the technique the room must be pretty well darkened and the only ambient light should be the indirect light behind the TV. This precludes reading, sewing, or texting - in fact any other activity that requires lighting anything near to the viewer.

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post #25 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the thoughts guys. I really appreciate it.

It may be age related like Gary says but dang I'm only 54 I was mainly wondering if the difference in the two technologies (Plasma vs. LCD) might make the issue worse. Also along with Gary's thoughts is I had the plasma two full months before I starting noticing the eye problems. It seems like if it was the set or the technology behind it I would have had problems right away.

I do have a bias light I use every night. It does help some and like I said some nights I tend to watch with very few issues at all which also goes back to Gary's thoughts that it's me and not the TV. I know it sounds like I go back and forth but that's just how confusing the problem is.


I'm looking at all options and will look around some this weekend. I prefer the look of plasma over LCD but if it proves the plasma sets bring out my eye problems like Daniel says I may have to try a nice 55" LCD set. I think the key is finding a set I can enjoy and watch without causing any eye issues. Also buying from a store with a liberal return policy is probably a good idea.

Thanks again for all the thoughts and pictures.

Jim
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post #26 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 08:57 AM
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I believe aim120s suggestions could very well be your issue. My guess is your Dell PC monitor doesn't have enough contrast to strain your eyes as much like a plasma or some LCDs. Maybe ANSI contrast may be what is affecting you most(the difference between the whitest white and blackest black on the screen at one given time). Have you seen a movie in the theater recently? If so, does it bother you? Front projection setups in general have very low ANSI contrast compared to a flat panel. For example, many projectors have a 300-600:1 ANSI contrast whereas something like a Pioneer plasma has a 5000:1 ANSI contrast.

I also wonder if a glossy/semi-glossy screen would have anything to do with it. I'm sure your Dell monitor is matte which might be easier on the eyes.
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post #27 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 09:24 AM
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I'm just about to turn 58 and my eyeglass prescription just changed slightly, the first change in over 10 years. I'm not looking forward to the next twenty years, I like my opthalmologist but he's probably gonna retire about the time I need him.

The two HDTV technologies that radiate the most infrared are Plasma and CCFL-backlit LCD. I just thought I'd mention that, you can actually feel the radiation within a few inches of the screen on both types, and LED-backlit LCD radiates less heat. Infrared is not damaging to your eyesight but it could have a mild drying effect on your eyeballs. Just thought I'd mention it. I don't believe it's significant at normal viewing distances.

As for the technology choice for your HDTV - I say please your own eyes. The enjoyment of immersing oneself in video is enhanced by the reality of the images you view, so I would take the time to reassure myself that I had seen all the candidates and picked the one I preferred. The enjoyment of purchasing an expensive video toy and enjoying it is also rewarding. For me the absolute best depiction of reality in 2007 was found in a 120Hz LCD with a good Frame Interpolation engine. I still enjoy that HDTV very much in spite of the prevailing opinion here at AVS that FI ruins the look of film. It's my TV, my eyes, and my preferences in my house.

Even if the worst happens, I can offer this. Two years ago my daughter brought by one of her friends she had long known (since they were Girl Scouts, both are now in their early 30's). I knew this young woman suffered from extremely poor vision, but I had never realized how bad, she concealed her disability well. Left to her own devices, she would sit 2' from a medium sized TV. After viewing my front projector, a 96" screen in a smallish room, she asked for and got my help at installing a projector of her own. She can now interact with her friends in a normal social setting while viewing video on the large screen. In fact her apartment is now the focal point of a group of her friends who like movies. As is my own Home Theater.

I sometimes take off my glasses and sit extremely close to the 8' front projection screen, about 6' away. The glasses off is presently just enough to blur my observation of indvidual pixels. The screen occupies almost the total field of view and the experience is totally immersive and would remain so with seriously deteriorated vision - like my daughter's friend who is in fact, legally blind.

Gary McCoy
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post #28 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motoman View Post

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I really appreciate it.

It may be age related like Gary says but dang I'm only 54 I was mainly wondering if the difference in the two technologies (Plasma vs. LCD) might make the issue worse. Also along with Gary's thoughts is I had the plasma two full months before I starting noticing the eye problems. It seems like if it was the set or the technology behind it I would have had problems right away.

I do have a bias light I use every night. It does help some and like I said some nights I tend to watch with very few issues at all which also goes back to Gary's thoughts that it's me and not the TV. I know it sounds like I go back and forth but that's just how confusing the problem is.


I'm looking at all options and will look around some this weekend. I prefer the look of plasma over LCD but if it proves the plasma sets bring out my eye problems like Daniel says I may have to try a nice 55" LCD set. I think the key is finding a set I can enjoy and watch without causing any eye issues. Also buying from a store with a liberal return policy is probably a good idea.

Thanks again for all the thoughts and pictures.

Jim

Many people's eyes start degenerating in their mid-to-late fourties. I thought I was doing well until I hit 50 and its been getting worse since.

Fwiw, I've had a Sony SXRD for the past 5 or so years and not had problems with eye fatigue. When I had green blob problems with the first SXRD (a 50" XBR1) I got a Sony 52" XBR3 LCD and had a lot of problems with eye fatigue. I gave up on it after a few weeks and got another SXRD (55" A2020) and had no further problem with eye fatigue. While I had the LCD I found that the only way to minimize the eye fatigue was to drop the brightness/backlight way down and use some bias lighting. Yet I sit in front of an LCD monitor all day every day with no problems but it is a 19" (soon to be 26") with much less brightness/contract and no moving images. Just my 2c.

P.S. I'm one of those unfortunate people that see rainbows on DLPs, blurring on LCDs and trails on plasmas!
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post #29 of 40 Old 09-01-2009, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I came from a 55A2020 also Had the green gremlins also and the TV was forever messed up after the optical block replacement. Went from the 55A2020 to the plasma. Never tried a DLP set. The rainbow talked scared me off of those.

Good info. Thanks guys and keep the ideas coming

Jim
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post #30 of 40 Old 09-05-2009, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Went looking at sets this morning. More confused than ever.

I'm still using the Toshiba 40RF350U set from the bedroom for TV watching right now. This is a 60hz LCD set. Don't know if that matters or not? No real issues while watching the set. My eyes burned pretty bad last night but I was real tired. I've adjusted contrast and brightness down but it still seems awful bright. Can't seem to find a good balance.

From Daniel Lang earlier in this thread...
"I suspect the 60 Hz strobing effect is causing your eye problems. Plasma TVs and conventional (long) fluorescent lamps have this problem. Most LCD TVs use a fluorescent backlight but the switching frequency is very high (> 20 KHz) and does not cause this strobing problem. Be aware that some LCD TVs (240 Hz) do modulate the backlight at 60 to 120 Hz to improve the motion resolution and may cause problems with your eyes." End quote.

Would a plasma set running in the 96hz eliminate the problem mentioned above?

Still not sure if the set is making my eyes better right now or something else. I had a period of time a few months ago while I still had my plasma that I had very few issues while watching TV. Just thinking back about that tends to make me think more along Gary's thoughts that is is probably my eyes and age and not the technology of either type of set.

I'm leaning towards trying another plasma like I originally planned. Probably a Panasonic TC-P58V10. Maybe the THX modes will help for my viewing conditions. I don't know. Just will have to try something and see how I do with it.

Anyway just some random thoughts while I ponder my decision.

Jim
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