Plasma Vs. LCD - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 07:10 PM
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Hmmm, I didn't specifically look at the black levels when I viewed the display from various angles, but I did read in the 9-series thread here on AVS that some people noticed the blacks getting greyer in such cases. That's disappointing to hear, but I don't think it's quite as severe as people are making it sound just slightly off center. The other night, when I was viewing this display at Best Buy, I was getting up/down, and moving slightly side-to-side (because of where the bench was located), and I was continually impressed with the contrast and black levels. I'm sure that if I went back and looked for it a little harder, I might notice it, but it's not anywhere -close- to the same greys that you get on displays like the one that I own (a CCFL LCD).

As far as motion goes ... yes, the AMP does look a little bit unnatural, but IMO, its smoothness actually makes it feel more natural. The only unnatural feeling I get from it is that it seems like it's making all of the motion too fast. If it were somehow altered to not have this effect, but still smooth the frames together, I think it would be better. There is certainly room for improvement in this feature.

I guess I really would have to sit down and watch one of those films on a Kuro to get the best impression of both displays. If I get the opportunity to do so, I will, but I don't know if I'll be able to. The Kuro they had at my local Best Buy was mounted high up on a wall, hooked up to one of their signal distributors. Therefore, the video quality was inherently worse than if it were hooked up to a native HD-DVD or Blu-Ray source. On top of that, the lighting out on the floor, outside the Magnolia area, is crap for watching video content.

I'm willing to give the Kuro a chance I guess, but I still don't like how dark it is, relative to the 950.

Edit: While I have little doubt that Sony makes a good LED LCD, the XBR8 is horrifically over-priced (not that the Samsung isn't, but damn).
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post #182 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcgeek86 View Post

It's not really subjective at all. Take the Kuro and the new Samsung LN55A950 side-by-side. The Samsung has not only brighter, richer color, but it also has much deeper blacks than the Kuro. It also has auto-motion frame injection, which makes the picture much smoother than any plasma will ever get.

Right now, it seems that 120hz LED backlit LCD displays have taken the top rung in display technology.

I spent time looking at both sets this last week at my Local Magnolia and the 950 looked excellent, but after some close scrutiny, I felt the Kuro had better detail, and displayed more detail in the black regions. Very subtle, but noticable... I was able to see more depth in the scenes I was looking at... I was watching "Planet Earth".

Both sets were amazing and I can see why it is so hard to make a selection and I can also see why BOTH have their FanBoys and FanGirls. Can it really get too much better than this?...

I am still trying to decide which set to get, but I'm leaning more towards the Kuro because, I perceived it to have, a more clear, defined and detailed picture. Again, YMMV...

Again both the Samsung 950 and Pioneer Kuro are amazing sets.

Note: I have to add that if you look at a specific set at one retailer then go to another retailer, that same set may not look so good. Trying to decide which set to buy can get really confusing considering that it may or may not be configured to it's optimum ability.

It really needs to be seen in your home and not in the showroom. It can almost feel like a crap shoot. Just my 2 cents.

Dennis

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post #183 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 08:20 PM
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Oldc, you truly resort to childlike behavior. I will not even respond to it.


pcgeek. I don't care about "rich" colors. If I want to richer colors, I'll bump the color setting to +10, and calibrate the luminance of those colors to pop more, but I prefer accurate colors, which no display equals the 9G Elites. None.

Also, the 950 does not have deeper blacks than the Elites. They only time it bests the Elite, is with an all black screen. I don't know about you, but I prefer content with my blacks. Also, the 950's suffer from crosstalk, and black crush, unless you sacrifice those black levels, and bump the brightness.


On another note, anyone pickup anything worthy today? I ran into a 46XBR4 for an insane price. Let's just say that Mr. Benjamin would've needed some company at the round table.
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post #184 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

Sorry I have to disagree. First impressions always win out in relationships and TV's.

This is why plasma has lost the war and are in the back of the stores.

Like it or not if the world was polled for what folks prefer LCD will win. Reality!



American Idol is very popular I hear.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a...
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post #185 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Oldc, you truly resort to childlike behavior. I will not even respond to it.


pcgeek. I don't care about "rich" colors. If I want to richer colors, I'll bump the color setting to +10, and calibrate the luminance of those colors to pop more, but I prefer accurate colors, which no display equals the 9G Elites. None.

Also, the 950 does not have deeper blacks than the Elites. They only time it bests the Elite, is with an all black screen. I don't know about you, but I prefer content with my blacks. Also, the 950's suffer from crosstalk, and black crush, unless you sacrifice those black levels, and bump the brightness.


Like every LCD I've ever seen.

The majority of movie scenes are darkly lit- something that plasma's excel at relative to LCD's. Plasma technology is also quite capable of producing rich and accurate colors, with plenty of lumen output.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a...
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post #186 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

On another note, anyone pickup anything worthy today? I ran into a 46XBR4 for an insane price. Let's just say that Mr. Benjamin would've needed some company at the round table.

I was hoping to get a sound system to go with my TV today.
But Friday I was hit with some bad news at work.
The Manufacturing Engineer on 1st shift (I work 2nd shift) quit Friday.
And my boss told me that I have to move to first shift starting Monday.
Which means I lose 10% of my salary which was my shift differential.

So it looks like I better not spend any money right now.
Which is a big bummer!
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post #187 of 252 Old 11-28-2008, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I was hoping to get a sound system to go with my TV today.
But Friday I was hit with some bad news at work.
The Manufacturing Engineer on 1st shift (I work 2nd shift) quit Friday.
And my boss told me that I have to move to first shift starting Monday.
Which means I lose 10% of my salary which was my shift differential.

So it looks like I better not spend any money right now.
Which is a big bummer!

Quitting a job in this economy... Not really a smart move. Hang in there.

Dennis

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post #188 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 12:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dlt123me View Post

Quitting a job in this economy... Not really a smart move. Hang in there.

Dennis


He didn't quit his job. He's replacing the day shift person who did so he's losing his shift differential.
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post #189 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

I was hoping to get a sound system to go with my TV today.
But Friday I was hit with some bad news at work.
The Manufacturing Engineer on 1st shift (I work 2nd shift) quit Friday.
And my boss told me that I have to move to first shift starting Monday.
Which means I lose 10% of my salary which was my shift differential.

So it looks like I better not spend any money right now.
Which is a big bummer!

Sorry to hear, on both accounts Chad.
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post #190 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

Sorry to hear, on both accounts Chad.

Thanks,
Its a definite blow to my wallet but my boss said it may be temporary.
We are now minus 5 positions in our group due to people leaving/getting fired.

So everyone is having to do double the work.

Out of the 7 people in my group, I was picked to replace this guy because I am the most versital. Meaning I can support more software/production machines and have more experience than anyone else in the group. normally that would be a good thing.
But in this case, It is why I was picked, and why I lost 10% of my pay.
Funny how things work sometimes.
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post #191 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by maxdog03 View Post

He didn't quit his job. He's replacing the day shift person who did so he's losing his shift differential.

Sorry, I was referring to the other guy, not chadmak09's shift movement... I guess I should have made this more clear.

The other guy may find he made the wrong decision unless he has a new job to move into...

Dennis

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post #192 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 09:03 PM
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Plasma manufacturers should be really mad at the treatment their sets get at a typical "showroom". Today I stopped at the local BB with the intent of slaying another myth how the LCDs are set to the dynamic mode and the backlights all the way up in order to get that attention-grabbing pop plasmas clearly lack. I even brought my own Samsung remote. Well, the myth is, in fact, a reality: To my surprise, all of the Samsungs, plasma and LCDs, were set to DYNAMIC and the backlight or brightness set to the max. Being solidly in the LCD camp, I still think such setups are grossly unfair (to plasmas and the buyers) and, ultimately, misleading for a simple reason that, were they set in a real home environment where humans live, the LCDs would have to be taken off that crazy DYNAMIC mode and the backlights turned way down, making them a lot closer to plasmas. I had to do myself to make LCDs watchable. I still like the LCDs for a variety of reasons but I am conceding that plasmas do get the short end of the stick in this regard.
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post #193 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 09:45 PM
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To the OP, cranking up the brightness on showroom TV's has been a salesman's trick for as long as I can remember. Some higher end stores actually have a dedicated viewing room that assimilate your average living room, but they are not the norm. For whatever reasons, most folks don't take the time to educate themselves on the latest displays and are attracted to those bright displays like moths to a flame. Salespeople continuously dupe their customers with urban myths, misinformation & outright lies to push sales toward LCD. I've witnessed it myself on more occasions than I care to count. Now, I rarely even speak to a sales person at a Big Box Store. You really must do your own homework & research, and you'll find that's exactly what most people here on AVS do prior to making a purchase.
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post #194 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 10:01 PM
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I would like to clear the air about something.

The retailers have NOTHING to do with the settings of any panel in Dynamic mode. Every single set comes this way from the manufacturer. Some panels, primarily Samsungs, come with the option of having the panel set to "Home" or "Store" mode. In store mode, the panels will always revert to dynamic after 10 minutes, incase consumers play with the settings.

Again, people thing that the stores do this. This is something they either heard, read, or just plain made up to fit in, since the general consensus on the net, is the Big Box stores are the enemy.

Ramazur, even most plasmas are set to Dynamic out of the box. They just are incapable of being as bright, excluding Samsung plasmas of course, which are as bright as some LCD's lol.
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post #195 of 252 Old 11-29-2008, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I would like to clear the air about something.

The retailers have NOTHING to do with the settings of any panel in Dynamic mode. Every single set comes this way from the manufacturer. Some panels, primarily Samsungs, come with the option of having the panel set to "Home" or "Store" mode. In store mode, the panels will always revert to dynamic after 10 minutes, incase consumers play with the settings.

Again, people thing that the stores do this. This is something they either heard, read, or just plain made up to fit in, since the general consensus on the net, is the Big Box stores are the enemy.

Ramazur, even most plasmas are set to Dynamic out of the box. They just are incapable of being as bright, excluding Samsung plasmas of course, which are as bright as some LCD's lol.

I disagree. You bet your sweet petunias the Store has something to do w/the bright settings. This may be the default settings made by the Mfg'ers to their Retail Outlets, but that's because this is the way both want the displays to appear in the Store. Here's a trick for ya. Just go around and set as many of the TV's in the BB Store to a more "normal" mode other than the usual torch mode they are now, then watch how long it takes for some sales monkey to come along and set them back to torch mode. Give me a break, these Stores know exactly what they're doing, and I've watched them do it many times.
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post #196 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 06:27 AM
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I've been reluctant to jump into this foray, since I've seen it many times before. But, what the hell.

I have a plasma & 2 LCDs. They both have their place. Under ideal conditions, my plasma produces a better picture. However, conditions vary, and the LCDs are better suited to some of them.


Chucko
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post #197 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

Salespeople continuously dupe their customers with urban myths, misinformation & outright lies to push sales toward LCD. I've witnessed it myself on more occasions than I care to count.

I have a hard time buying into this line of thinking. I've read this countless times, even seen articles "proving" that it exists. I can't for the life of me figure out why salespeople would do this though (speaking only of the non-commission types). What do they gain by pushing one tech over another? These guys want you to buy something; what do they care if you choose a plasma over an LCD?
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post #198 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Allnatural View Post

I have a hard time buying into this line of thinking. I've read this countless times, even seen articles "proving" that it exists. I can't for the life of me figure out why salespeople would do this though (speaking only of the non-commission types). What do they gain by pushing one tech over another? These guys want you to buy something; what do they care if you choose a plasma over an LCD?

Good question. Some of the posters claim that it is the ignorance and such. I am willing to give the sales persons a lot more credit than that.

The average customer, Joe and his wife, are not AVS readers and did not spend endless hours researching before they walked in and don't really have any preferences other than size and the price. The sales guys know it and their objective is to sell here and now, not educate. They do it sounding sure and knowledgable, even if they have to fake it.

Why do they "push" LCDs absent any financial incentive for themselves as a result of the customer choosing plasma vs. LCD? My best guess is that they already know that Joe or his wife, as uninformed as they were walking in, are already swayed toward the LCDs' pop, brightness or whatever. At this point a good saleman will re-inforce that bias by adding his "facts". The last thing the salesman wants is to say anything that will make Joe and the spouse leave the store to "think about it" or do some "research". How could he do it? By saying: I know those LCDs look really good here but before you spend your hard-earned dollars why don't you consider these other sets - they are called plasmas - because they, the plasmas, will look much better in your living room than they do here.

Upon hearing this, Joe starts thinking, then walks out to do some more thinking, his wife follows and the sale is gone.
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post #199 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allnatural View Post

I have a hard time buying into this line of thinking. I've read this countless times, even seen articles "proving" that it exists. I can't for the life of me figure out why salespeople would do this though (speaking only of the non-commission types). What do they gain by pushing one tech over another? These guys want you to buy something; what do they care if you choose a plasma over an LCD?

Not all of the salesmen are pushing LCD for profits or anything like that.

In my experience, It is just like ramazur mentioned above, It was just that they are not educated enough to know that most of the issues they keep bringing up about plasma are no longer issues.

They know that most buyers are first time buyers who don't know much about HDTV.
And the saleman simply is not educated enought to tell the people that the brightness they are placing so much importance in, will be mostly useless at home. Either that or he/she doesn't know thierself.
Thats what they need to be saying.

the salepeople are not educated enough about what they are selling.
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post #200 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

I disagree. You bet your sweet petunias the Store has something to do w/the bright settings. This may be the default settings made by the Mfg'ers to their Retail Outlets, but that's because this is the way both want the displays to appear in the Store. Here's a trick for ya. Just go around and set as many of the TV's in the BB Store to a more "normal" mode other than the usual torch mode they are now, then watch how long it takes for some sales monkey to come along and set them back to torch mode. Give me a break, these Stores know exactly what they're doing, and I've watched them do it many times.

You changed your story. You said that the Big Box stores put the sets in Dynamic. When I mentioned exactly what Ramazur said, you changed to, "they both want it that way"? Give me a break. Most panels come preset with two different options; store, or home mode. Store mode reverts the set to Dynamic if the settings are changed.

It has nothing to do with the stores. Why do you think every manufacturers panels lean torwards a certain color in torch mode? Some are more blue, others more red. When people walk into a store, they say "I like the colors on that one more", not knowing most panels can be made to look the same as far as colors are concerned. It's all about "Look at me".
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post #201 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allnatural View Post

I have a hard time buying into this line of thinking. I've read this countless times, even seen articles "proving" that it exists. I can't for the life of me figure out why salespeople would do this though (speaking only of the non-commission types). What do they gain by pushing one tech over another? These guys want you to buy something; what do they care if you choose a plasma over an LCD?

I'll tell you why. Most people come into a store already knowing what they want. They are just unsure of which one, hence my comment about the manufacturers, and how they set their colors.

Yes, most people come into a store wanting an LCD, most without every even seeing one. Now, think about this; on a busy day, when there are people pulling you left and right, do you want to sit there and answer "whats the difference between plasma and lcd?", 200 times a day? Especially when the majority are looking at a display that is <32" in size? Would you rather sit there and explain to them that they don't make plasmas in that size, which is going to lead to a plethora of questions of why, who, what, when, where, how, or just say "lcd is better", and get them out your way?


Remember, I have quite a few friends who are managers, and sales associates at my local BB/MAG, so this is coming from the horses mouth.,
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post #202 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 04:42 PM
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Don't forget "probably" - not "prolly" in your tag line. (Even if it's intentional it's moronic and infantile.)
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post #203 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 06:29 PM
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SPIFFS, maybe? Most stores (not just tv stores) have merchandise they get at reduced prices, or get special buys on, meaning the profit on those particular items are significently higher. They will give SPIFFS (bonus money) for selling those specific items. Manufacturers also sometimes offer the salesman spiffs.

Nothing wrong with this, they are in business to make a profit. Plus, a lot of times both the store and the customer benefit from the lower manufacturer price special deals.

I've "won" refrigerators, tv's and mattresses that way myself in years past., not to mention the spiff money.
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post #204 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

You changed your story. You said that the Big Box stores put the sets in Dynamic. When I mentioned exactly what Ramazur said, you changed to, "they both want it that way"? Give me a break. Most panels come preset with two different options; store, or home mode. Store mode reverts the set to Dynamic if the settings are changed.

It has nothing to do with the stores. Why do you think every manufacturers panels lean torwards a certain color in torch mode? Some are more blue, others more red. When people walk into a store, they say "I like the colors on that one more", not knowing most panels can be made to look the same as far as colors are concerned. It's all about "Look at me".

I didn't change any story, and if you'll bother to reread my post a little closer w/o injecting your own ideas, you'll see that I said "crank up the brightness". So what's the beef? You're a bit on the naive side if you don't think Mfg'ers and their biggest customers (namely Best Buy, Wal-Mart, etc.) don't get together and discuss these things. Those discussions are a few levels above where your pals work at your local Mag/BB Store so you probably won't get the memo/scuttle butt from them.

As for "store mode", that is not available in most of the displays and is a recent feature in the new TV's that do have it. A store can set up their displays any damn way they choose to do so. Don't those folks at your local BB know how to use a remote? Some higher end stores will actually do a mini-calibration on their displays. So, who do you blame for the "torch mode" in the Stores?? I say both, the Mfg'er and the Store as they both are active partners in this whole deal.
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post #205 of 252 Old 11-30-2008, 10:04 PM
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Bloody hell! Are people still arguing over this?
LCDs are really only good for computer monitors...now. Plasmas are much better for movies and games. The average LCD is just plain garbage. When we all move on to FED or other FP technologies in the future, no one is going to argue about how bad LCDs looked. I guess some people just love staring at a lamp.
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post #206 of 252 Old 12-01-2008, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Don't forget "probably" - not "prolly" in your tag line. (Even if it's intentional it's moronic and infantile.)

Don't forget this: plasmas not equal plasma's not equal plasmas'
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post #207 of 252 Old 12-01-2008, 05:13 AM
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Bloody hell! Are people still arguing over this?
LCDs are really only good for computer monitors...now.

I will move my 52A550 to my office tonight but how far would I have to sit? Please be gentle if you decide to share this shocking discovery with Samsung, Sony, LGE, Toshiba and others.
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post #208 of 252 Old 12-01-2008, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Don't forget this: plasmas not equal plasma's not equal plasmas'

People will write or type a word based on how they say it. After reading some of the posts, I find it scary.

Also, how hard is it to use spell check?
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post #209 of 252 Old 12-01-2008, 08:57 AM
 
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Don't forget "probably" - not "prolly" in your tag line. (Even if it's intentional it's moronic and infantile.)


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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Don't forget this: plasmas not equal plasma's not equal plasmas'


I check back into this thread to see if anything interesting is being discussed and we get spelling lessons?
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post #210 of 252 Old 12-01-2008, 10:09 AM
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I check back into this thread to see if anything interesting is being discussed and we get spelling lessons?

We wouldn't have to do it if some posts were not written in a manner that makes them almost incomprehensible.
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