The Big TV Maker Shakeout of 2009- Small makes and some plasma makers in trouble - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 01:08 PM
VFR
AVS Special Member
 
VFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

All of the preceeding presupposes that iit it is "accepted good ethical behavior" to dictate terms because of one's stength in the market.

"Free choice" to conduct buisness elsewhere constitutes neither freedom or choice practically speaking when one party is overwhelmingly dominant in the market.

Markets are what they are--they can be angelic or demonic.

While the vast majority of the time--"Freedom" results in the best market it does not Always result in the best market.

Andf I wonder what is the difference between Wal-Mart being able to dictate terms to P&G being thought by some supporters of free market capitalism as being a "good" thing while a union dictating terms to Wal-Mart is thought of as being a "bad" thing?

Freedom to exercise financial power does not equate to that exercise of power being inherently "ethical"--even if such exercise would be legal--profit maximizing--or even "accepted" by society in general.

Great post.
VFR is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

So long as the workers have the right to form that union under the laws of the land than yes...its a good thing. Workers have always had the right to organize...clearly they have freely decided it's not in their best interest.

You seem too smart not to realize that there is such a thing as stacking the deck, in terms of labor laws, or corporations intimidating/retaliating against workers who seek to unionize. Then there's also the practice of shutting down individual stores that choose to unionize, costing those workers their jobs.


Quote:
Shoppers love WalMart's "crap" and find enough value in shopping there for the management of that business to make enough money to make a profitable business and one of only 2 companies that were up on the Dow 30 for 2008.

I'm not sure it's so much a case of "loving" Wal-Mart's crap as it is not having too many other options, in a lot of cases.

Say you live in a small, isolated town, far away from any major urban centers. Say that the only major store within an hour's drive is WallyWorld. Most of the mom-n'-pop stores have been done in by WallyWorld. You are perhaps older, not too tech-savvy, or need an item NOW, not next week, so online is not a great option. Where are you gonna go? That's right, Wal-Mart.

I'd say in many cases it's not so much 'love' as it is a captive audience.

Yes, it's also the pricing in some cases... if you make minimum wage, you may *have* to go to Wal-Mart, because their cheap crap is all you can afford. But that too is a captive audience, of a different sort.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #93 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 01:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

I'm not sure it's so much a case of "loving" Wal-Mart's crap as it is not having too many other options, in a lot of cases.

Say you live in a small, isolated town, far away from any major urban centers. Say that the only major store within an hour's drive is WallyWorld. Most of the mom-n'-pop stores have been done in by WallyWorld. You are perhaps older, not too tech-savvy, or need an item NOW, not next week, so online is not a great option. Where are you gonna go? That's right, Wal-Mart.

I'd say in many cases it's not so much 'love' as it is a captive audience.

Yes, it's also the pricing in some cases... if you make minimum wage, you may *have* to go to Wal-Mart, because their cheap crap is all you can afford. But that too is a captive audience, of a different sort.

I can't speak about the marketplace in the midwest however I live in the highly dense Northeast where shoppers have more choices then they could ever use. In my county, which is one of the top 2 highest average income counties in the entire US, there are either 4 or 5 Walmarts. Their parking lots are full ALL the time and they have to compete with Targets, Sears, Macy's, Saks and just about every other big retailer name you've ever heard of. And even with all that competition, they are adding another Walmart currently under construction that's inside a 10 mile radius of 3 other Walmarts.

They understand and are definitely meeting the needs of their customer base and that base has lots choices given the avg income of the area, the number of competing chains and the number of local shops in the area. Walmart unquestionably does not have a captive audience in my neck of the woods.

If only Pioneer understood the needs of their customers like Walmart does, they might be able to make a few bucks while continuing to deliver high quality products to the marketplace.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #94 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

If only Pioneer understood the needs of their customers like Walmart does, they might be able to make a few bucks while continuing to deliver high quality products to the marketplace.

Since when does Wal-Mart know anything about 'high quality' products? They specialize in cheap Chinese-made crap.

Oh, and as to your other point, while the Northeast is definitely more compact, other parts of the country are much more spread out. I'm sure you're aware of this.

Going up I-5 in Oregon and Northern California, I run across plenty small towns that have Wal-Mart as their only really major store. I'm sure in the rural Midwest and parts of the South, the situation is just as obvious or even moreso.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #95 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 04:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

Since when does Wal-Mart know anything about 'high quality' products? They specialize in cheap Chinese-made crap.

Oh, and as to your other point, while the Northeast is definitely more compact, other parts of the country are much more spread out. I'm sure you're aware of this.

Going up I-5 in Oregon and Northern California, I run across plenty small towns that have Wal-Mart as their only really major store. I'm sure in the rural Midwest and parts of the South, the situation is just as obvious or even moreso.

I think you misread my earlier sentence regarding high quality. The high quality reference was to the products made by Pioneer, not WalMart.

I don't disagree with you that there are many "one-horse towns" where Walmart has a captive audience. I just wanted to point out that Walmart does just as well when they have many other tough retail competitors surrounding them. I think it shows they know how to stock their stores based on the needs of the local community. Many of the products I find in my WalMart seem unique to our area and I'm sure the same is true for other WalMarts.

The point being that WalMart has taken the time to better understand what their customer's want and then find a way to delivery it ...profitably. Something Pioneer could learn a lesson or 2 about.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #96 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 04:29 PM
 
maxdog03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

You love reminding me of that.


Just stating reality where as you keep trying to bury plasma and claim it's dead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Maybe I should shut up and be happy with the KURO as the best display technology for the rest of eternity

Do as you please as I wouldn't argue with you if you did, but nobody's claiming the Kuro is the best ever for eternity. There are other technologies likely to come along, but SED just likely isn't one of them. Never give up hope though.
maxdog03 is offline  
post #97 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 04:42 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

I just wanted to point out that Walmart does just as well when they have many other tough retail competitors surrounding them.

I'm not sure that one person's anecdotal evidence is absolute proof of that.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #98 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 06:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

I'm not sure that one person's anecdotal evidence is absolute proof of that.


Nothing anecdotal about Walmart being one of the pre-eminent businesses in the world from both a growth and profit standpoint. Their business results speak for themselves and far surpass most companies in performance since their inception particularly last year. Clearly they've surpassed Pioneer many times over. Who knows, maybe the solution to Pioneer's problems is to drop their prices and cut a deal with Walmart

The fact that Walmart continues to expand in this economy in locations where they already have significant concentration of stores is surely a reflection that they are meeting customer's demand and need even more stores to continue to meet that demand in the future. Has nothing to do with anecdotes from me.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #99 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 07:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
chadmak09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Alabama
Posts: 3,067
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

I'm sure in the rural Midwest and parts of the South, the situation is just as obvious or even moreso.

Definitly.
Walmart is the only store in many small towns here in alabama.
Of course, Its mainly because they put all of the small mom&pop electronics shops, pharmacys, and hardware stores completely out of buisness.

Lots of empty buildings left in the wake of Walmart.
In fact, buisness property value decreases when walmart comes into town due to the surplus of empty buildings from buisnesses left in ruin.
But it is nice to have one store where you can get everything you need.
chadmak09 is offline  
post #100 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

The fact that Walmart continues to expand in this economy in locations where they already have significant concentration of stores is surely a reflection that they are meeting customer's demand and need even more stores to continue to meet that demand in the future. Has nothing to do with anecdotes from me.

Sure. America's becoming more broke year after year, so more and more ppl are forced to shop at Wallyworld just to make ends meet. This very severe recession is just accelerating that.

Many of the bottom-feeder stores are doing pretty well, actually. We get it.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #101 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

Definitly.
Walmart is the only store in many small towns here in alabama.
Of course, Its mainly because they put all of the small mom&pop electronics shops, pharmacys, and hardware stores completely out of buisness.

Lots of empty buildings left in the wake of Walmart.
In fact, buisness property value decreases when walmart comes into town due to the surplus of empty buildings from buisnesses left in ruin.
But it is nice to have one store where you can get everything you need.


Yup, that's the WallyWorld business model in a nutshell.

So, Chad and Heat, think we've all hijacked this thread sufficiently yet?

It was ostensibly about TVs, I vaguely remember.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #102 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Artwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hoover, Alabama
Posts: 4,817
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 197
Being that Wal-Mart sells millions of TVs they are more than just a tangential part of the thread.

But trust me--if anyone thinks that only TV producers have their defenders in these threads--they are chump change compared to the #1 or # 2 company in America.

I think that it is a bad thing when the market has less companies producing TVs.

I also think it is a bad thing when there are less companies selling TVs.

For that matter I think it is a bad thing when fewer and fewer countries produce most of the TVs.

The USA doesn't produce TVs anymore.

Americans are buying an increasing number of their TVs from an ever growing smaller number of sellers.

Beggars can't be choosers.

The least common denominator might be more efficient and more profitable but it hardly equates in the long run to innovation or increased TV quality.

Make any product low priced enough and what are the chances that possible better products will flourish at higher prices?

Does anyone remember when we had basically one phone company and paid out the wazoo?

We aren't to that point yet with TVs and Wal-Mart doesn't own 100% of the retail market but the closer and closer we get to that point and the closer and closer we get to the point of fewer TV producers and fewer and fewer countries producing them what will happen?

What are the chances that the laws and regulations which reflect the financial power of a one seller market will be tilted in such a way that innovation and quality will be stifled?

Now you won't get me to shed alot of tears if Pioneer doesn't make it.

And you won't see alot of tears from me if Wal-Mart sells all the TVs in the world at a cheap price.

You will hear of my tears at this forum if picture quality in TVs deosn't advance.

If Pioneer were to die--and if the state of the art in TVs never achieved that level for a few years--that would be a bad thing.

And it wouldn't matter if the whole world of consumers was happy with less and if the companies still producing TVs made a boat load of money.

Some people know the price of many things but can't grasp the concept of intrinsic value.

Great picture quality IS.

It isn't dependent on who likes it--who values it--who makes money on it or what it costs.
Artwood is offline  
post #103 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 10:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

Yup, that's the WallyWorld business model in a nutshell.

So, Chad and Heat, think we've all hijacked this thread sufficiently yet?

It was ostensibly about TVs, I vaguely remember.

Just about...back to the TV makers. Pioneer has their delayed earnings report on Feb. 12. I think this financial report for the 3rd qtr of their fiscal year will provide alot of insight as to whether or not Pioneer has a future as an independent plasma maker. I certainly hope they have a good story to tell because if its worse than their 2nd qtr than I suspect their stock holders will be screaming bloody murder.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #104 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 10:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
James W. Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Birch Bay/Whatcom county, WA
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

History says Pioneer can't make money on their Plasma business in a good economy therefore they will only lose dramatically more in a cratered economy.


I do not know Pioneer's plasma sales history are you saying that Pioneer has never made much off their incredible performing plasmas?

Why?
Man, I just do not get it....anyone who has spent some time looking at a number of HDTVs including Pioneer's Kuros knows that the Kuros are the best.
James W. Johnson is offline  
post #105 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 11:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
James W. Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Birch Bay/Whatcom county, WA
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Pioneer should be the wealthiest (by far) of all HDTV manufacturers .
James W. Johnson is offline  
post #106 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 11:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I do not know Pioneer's plasma sales history are you saying that Pioneer has never made much off their incredible performing plasmas?

Why?
Man, I just do not get it....anyone who has spent some time looking at a number of HDTVs including Pioneer's Kuros knows that the Kuros are the best.

I don't get it either other than a poorly run business. Check out post #15 in this thread and some of the links I posted. Pioneer has lost money as a corporation for the last 5 consecutive years running with the Plasma business being the primary culprit. The Car audio business has kept the business from going completely under during the past 5yrs based on their financials.

Hard to imagine they could screw-up the business with the best flat screen tv on the market. Its going to be interesting to see what they do next to reverse 5 years of losses.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #107 of 284 Old 01-31-2009, 11:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
James W. Johnson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Birch Bay/Whatcom county, WA
Posts: 3,376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Heatwave.

Well with the United State's economy in the shape it is in, it is gonna be hard on every HDTV manufacturer..... the scary part is , it could get alot worse before it gets better and this could go on for a very long time.

All I can say is I sure hope they survive this. No question that getting prices down has to be #1 on their list. Forget about making a better set, they are already 99.99% perfect.

If Pioneer does not survive this , it will be sad.....but one thing is for sure, if they go down others will follow.....we are in very hard times and it could get alot worse before it gets better.
James W. Johnson is offline  
post #108 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ramazur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

Pioneer has lost money as a corporation for the last 5 consecutive years running with the Plasma business being the primary culprit.

Therefore, their predicament cannot be blamed on bad economy. Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

The explanation is a lot simpler and less sophisticated. Just compare the MSRPs of PRO-111FD and LN52A650, which are 4500 and 2700, respectively. One major on-line retailer has these two sets at 3400 and 1700.

As a side note: just go that retailer's website and look at the picture showing the Elite. The screen is gray but the frame, as a point of reference, is black so the picture is true. This is going to be that "deep deep black" during daytime.

Joe walks into a store and sees it and says WTF or something like that. In response to this quick review a salesman must now convince Joe how it is worth to spend ADDITIONAL 1600 because at home, when it is really dark, Joe will finally be able to appreciate the difference between black and really really black but, unfortunately, not here in the store. Joe just doesn't buy it because he already knows this old line: Do you believe me or your lying eyes? He is also quick with math, even without his calculator, that for just the DIFFERENCE he can buy another set like LN46A630 for his den and still be left with 300. Or that bluray and the speakers and a great AV receiver. On top of that he is getting less screen.

Let's assume that Joe is married. Imagine his agony at the very thought of telling Jane that they should spend 1600 extra for....

This is where I will stop to give you guys a chance to give Joe his talking points for the conversation with Jane. As O'Reilly would say: Go.

Just one more thing. Jane has a list of her own. On that list she has items she has been dreaming about since she was a little girl and Joe knows it. This is why Pioneer is a 5-year loser while Samsung, until recently along with others, has been making a ton of money.
ramazur is offline  
post #109 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:35 AM
Advanced Member
 
VidPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Revere, MA
Posts: 821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Pioneer should be the wealthiest (by far) of all HDTV manufacturers .


I agree. Now where did I put my Betamax VCR?

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
VidPro is offline  
post #110 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ramazur, I think you're on to something here. While their pricing surely hurts the Pioneer sets when compared to their competition in a BB showroom, the problem is double compounded when their display unit looks like crap to the average joe against a decent LCD or even other Plasmas in the showroom. I think they have a marketing problem to convince "better halves" to agree to shell out thousands more $s for a display that looks like crap in the showroom.

They might consider a campaign to have all their display models quickly calibrated to D-Nice's settings for the showroom and perhaps that might help their cause (along with lowering the price).


Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Therefore, their predicament cannot be blamed on bad economy. Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

The explanation is a lot simpler and less sophisticated. Just compare the MSRPs of PRO-111FD and LN52A650, which are 4500 and 2700, respectively. One major on-line retailer has these two sets at 3400 and 1700.

As a side note: just go that retailer's website and look at the picture showing the Elite. The screen is gray but the frame, as a point of reference, is black so the picture is true. This is going to be that "deep deep black" during daytime.

Joe walks into a store and sees it and says WTF or something like that. In response to this quick review a salesman must now convince Joe how it is worth to spend ADDITIONAL 1600 because at home, when it is really dark, Joe will finally be able to appreciate the difference between black and really really black but, unfortunately, not here in the store. Joe just doesn't buy it because he already knows this old line: Do you believe me or your lying eyes? He is also quick with math, even without his calculator, that for just the DIFFERENCE he can buy another set like LN46A630 for his den and still be left with 300. Or that bluray and the speakers and a great AV receiver. On top of that he is getting less screen.

Let's assume that Joe is married. Imagine his agony at the very thought of telling Jane that they should spend 1600 extra for....

This is where I will stop to give you guys a chance to give Joe his talking points for the conversation with Jane. As O'Reilly would say: Go.

Just one more thing. Jane has a list of her own. On that list she has items she has been dreaming about since she was a little girl and Joe knows it. This is why Pioneer is a 5-year loser while Samsung, until recently along with others, has been making a ton of money.


OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #111 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ramazur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by VidPro View Post

I agree. Now where did I put my Betamax VCR?

Right next to your 8-track player.
ramazur is offline  
post #112 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

I don't know what country you live in?
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
post #113 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
VidPro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Revere, MA
Posts: 821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 27
The good ole days.

The television screen is the retina of the mind's eye.
VidPro is offline  
post #114 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 07:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

Therefore, their predicament cannot be blamed on bad economy. Bad economy may eventually make them go out of business but the economy was fine until the second half of last year.

The explanation is a lot simpler and less sophisticated. Just compare the MSRPs of PRO-111FD and LN52A650, which are 4500 and 2700, respectively. One major on-line retailer has these two sets at 3400 and 1700.

As a side note: just go that retailer's website and look at the picture showing the Elite. The screen is gray but the frame, as a point of reference, is black so the picture is true. This is going to be that "deep deep black" during daytime.

Joe walks into a store and sees it and says WTF or something like that. In response to this quick review a salesman must now convince Joe how it is worth to spend ADDITIONAL 1600 because at home, when it is really dark, Joe will finally be able to appreciate the difference between black and really really black but, unfortunately, not here in the store. Joe just doesn't buy it because he already knows this old line: Do you believe me or your lying eyes? He is also quick with math, even without his calculator, that for just the DIFFERENCE he can buy another set like LN46A630 for his den and still be left with 300. Or that bluray and the speakers and a great AV receiver. On top of that he is getting less screen.

Let's assume that Joe is married. Imagine his agony at the very thought of telling Jane that they should spend 1600 extra for....

This is where I will stop to give you guys a chance to give Joe his talking points for the conversation with Jane. As O'Reilly would say: Go.

Just one more thing. Jane has a list of her own. On that list she has items she has been dreaming about since she was a little girl and Joe knows it. This is why Pioneer is a 5-year loser while Samsung, until recently along with others, has been making a ton of money.

How about comparing the 5020 to the a650 since that would be a closer comparison in IQ, with the 5020 still being superior.



Heatwave3....a Kuro can be bought for less than some LCD's reccomended here daily and barely more than the Panny plasmas reccomeded here daily.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
post #115 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 08:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

How about comparing the 5020 to the a650 since that would be a closer comparison in IQ, with the 5020 still being superior.



Heatwave3....a Kuro can be bought for less than some LCD's recommended here daily and barely more than the Panny plasmas recommended here daily.

I think the competitiveness of the pricing of the Pioneer's is a recent development. If you go back to last fall and earlier the Pioneer's were generally significantly higher than their competition and when displayed in the same showroom with the competition, generally did not fare well. It's going to take time for consumers to view the Pioneers as competitively price and time may not be on Pioneer's side given the economy. They may need to get real dramatic in their pricing to capture the consumer's attention, then do a better job of selling the quality story with their next gen and work themselves back to premium pricing as the story of their quality picture becomes more broadly accepted.

A/V enthusiasts see and understand the quality of their screens however the everyday consumer does not see it in the showroom. All they see is a price that's equal to or higher than "lesser" sets and a "dimmer" picture that actually looks worse to their eye in the showroom. Not likely to be an easy problem to fix as consumer's are generally just crossing the Pio off their shopping list as "not for them".

Enthusiasts may think that its OK for the "non-educated" to strike the Pio off their list, however unless more folks keep the Pio on their shopping list the enthusiasts may be out of luck down the road.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #116 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 08:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
But they also blew out the 5080 and 1150 last year for 'very' competitive prices, just like now with the 5020....just have to wait since their calendr year is months behind other manuf.

I do agree with your assessment of Joe6Pack in the store.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
post #117 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 08:27 AM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdog03 View Post

Just stating reality where as you keep trying to bury plasma and claim it's dead.




Do as you please as I wouldn't argue with you if you did, but nobody's claiming the Kuro is the best ever for eternity. There are other technologies likely to come along, but SED just likely isn't one of them. Never give up hope though.

If SED isn't going to be one them, that's a travesty to the whole world.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #118 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 08:31 AM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Pioneer should be the wealthiest (by far) of all HDTV manufacturers .

You see, this all emotionalism or fanboyism as some would call it. This has nothing to do with hard numbers.

Anyway, Pioneer is their own worst enemies. They might make the best plasmas, but the problem is they're not good enough to justify their premium prices.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #119 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 08:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ramazur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

I don't know what country you live in?

I am pleased to say that I live in the United States of America, population 300 million, capital city: Washington, DC. Unofficial language: English. Currency: dollar.

Now that we got this important set of facts out of the way, what is the point you were trying to get to as I assume that there is deeper thought behind your question.
ramazur is offline  
post #120 of 284 Old 02-01-2009, 08:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
E-A-G-L-E-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,721
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Your "cuteness" asside, the fact that you say our economy was good until Q3 of last year is laughable at best.
E-A-G-L-E-S is offline  
Reply Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off