The Big TV Maker Shakeout of 2009- Small makes and some plasma makers in trouble - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Real interesting article at The Wall Street Journal on the big upcoming wave of TV manufacturer consolidation. Some excerpts:

TV Makers Confront a Shakeout
Big Manufacturers Start to Squeeze Smaller Rivals as Sales, Prices Shrink


The explosive growth in flat-panel television sets in recent years attracted a slew of companies into the TV market. But as sales slow and prices now decline sharply, larger manufacturers such as Sony Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. are starting to squeeze out smaller rivals.

With world-wide television revenue forecast to fall 18% this year, television makers are struggling with a slowdown in consumer spending. But the recession could deal a more punishing blow to several discount or second-tier brands lacking the financial clout of larger manufacturers.

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. -- to survive the latest downturn. The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.

Aggressive pricing from more established TV makers is eating into the price advantage of discount brands like Vizio Inc. and Westinghouse Digital Electronics LLC which took the market by storm several years ago with television sets significantly cheaper than established brands.

Second-tier Japanese brands such as Hitachi Corp. and Pioneer Corp., struggling to compete on price and selection, are losing valuable floor space at stores.

...The top five makers of plasma and LCD television sets accounted for 60% of all flat-panel TV sets sold in the third quarter of 2008, up from 53% in the year-earlier period, according to research firm DisplaySearch. They are expected to garner an even bigger share of total sales in fourth-quarter data because of discounting during the holiday sales period...

...The shrinking price gaps are leading consumers such as Nathan Walter to rethink their purchases. Since last month, Mr. Walter, an information-technology professional in Santa Barbara, Calif., has been looking for a 42-inch LCD flat panel TV to replace his 32-inch model.

Looking online, as well as in stores such as Best Buy and Sears, Mr. Walter says he has seen the top-tier brands, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony, offer sales with $300-to-$400 discounts, bringing them closer in price to brands such as Vizio...

...Smaller TV makers such as Hitachi and Pioneer -- early leaders in the plasma-TV market -- are losing market share and retail space, especially in North America. As rival LCD technology began to become more popular, Hitachi and Pioneer failed to sell enough TV sets to drive down costs and didn't introduce a wide-enough selection of television sizes and models...

...Last year, Pioneer said it would stop making its own plasma display panels, opting to buy panels from Panasonic. It will soon introduce LCD television sets using panels bought from rival Sharp. Hitachi also reached an agreement to procure part of its panel production from Panasonic...


Full article at: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...DQyMDA1Wj.html

.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 11:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
woodyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

Real interesting article at The Wall Street Journal on the big upcoming wave of TV manufacturer consolidation. Some excerpts:

TV Makers Confront a Shakeout
Big Manufacturers Start to Squeeze Smaller Rivals as Sales, Prices Shrink


The explosive growth in flat-panel television sets in recent years attracted a slew of companies into the TV market. But as sales slow and prices now decline sharply, larger manufacturers such as Sony Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. are starting to squeeze out smaller rivals.

With world-wide television revenue forecast to fall 18% this year, television makers are struggling with a slowdown in consumer spending. But the recession could deal a more punishing blow to several discount or second-tier brands lacking the financial clout of larger manufacturers.

Industry executives expect only a handful of companies -- Sony, Samsung, Panasonic Corp., Sharp Co., LG Electronics Co. and Toshiba Corp. -- to survive the latest downturn. The others, they say, may be forced to either pull out of the TV business, or join forces with a surviving entity.

Aggressive pricing from more established TV makers is eating into the price advantage of discount brands like Vizio Inc. and Westinghouse Digital Electronics LLC which took the market by storm several years ago with television sets significantly cheaper than established brands.

Second-tier Japanese brands such as Hitachi Corp. and Pioneer Corp., struggling to compete on price and selection, are losing valuable floor space at stores.

...The top five makers of plasma and LCD television sets accounted for 60% of all flat-panel TV sets sold in the third quarter of 2008, up from 53% in the year-earlier period, according to research firm DisplaySearch. They are expected to garner an even bigger share of total sales in fourth-quarter data because of discounting during the holiday sales period...

...The shrinking price gaps are leading consumers such as Nathan Walter to rethink their purchases. Since last month, Mr. Walter, an information-technology professional in Santa Barbara, Calif., has been looking for a 42-inch LCD flat panel TV to replace his 32-inch model.

Looking online, as well as in stores such as Best Buy and Sears, Mr. Walter says he has seen the top-tier brands, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony, offer sales with $300-to-$400 discounts, bringing them closer in price to brands such as Vizio...

...Smaller TV makers such as Hitachi and Pioneer -- early leaders in the plasma-TV market -- are losing market share and retail space, especially in North America. As rival LCD technology began to become more popular, Hitachi and Pioneer failed to sell enough TV sets to drive down costs and didn't introduce a wide-enough selection of television sizes and models...

...Last year, Pioneer said it would stop making its own plasma display panels, opting to buy panels from Panasonic. It will soon introduce LCD television sets using panels bought from rival Sharp. Hitachi also reached an agreement to procure part of its panel production from Panasonic...


Full article at: http://online.wsj.com/article_email/...DQyMDA1Wj.html

.

First time I've heard pioneer and hitachi called second tier, especially pioneer.
woodyjoe is offline  
post #3 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyjoe View Post

First time I've heard pioneer and hitachi called second tier, especially pioneer.

Perhaps they're talking marketshare, not quality?

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #4 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 11:48 AM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyjoe View Post

First time I've heard pioneer and hitachi called second tier, especially pioneer.

Don't confuse that with the displays they manufacturer. They are second tier as player in display manufacturing game.

Anyway, this confirms my admonition that companies like Hitachi and Pioneer are not going to make it.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #5 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 12:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
woodyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Don't confuse that with the displays they manufacturer. They are second tier as player in display manufacturing game.

Anyway, this confirms my admonition that companies like Hitachi and Pioneer are not going to make it.

Im not confused at all. Thats just what he wrote. I dont agree with it.

"Second-tier Japanese brands such as Hitachi Corp. and Pioneer Corp"
woodyjoe is offline  
post #6 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 12:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
creemail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,087
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
This summerizes their market appeal:

Quote:
A spokeswoman for Pioneer said market share isn't its main concern because it is targeting a high-end, niche-market strategy with large TV sets. Given the recent economic slowdown, the company is reviewing all businesses, including its TV division. Pioneer plans to announce a new midterm business plan next month.

A spokeswoman for Hitachi said it is also not chasing the high-volume part of the TV market, instead focusing on more expensive, premium products. The company says while business conditions are tough for the entire industry, it has no plans to pull out of the television business.

As I stated in other posts and D-Nice as well...Pioneer's focus is to the HT buyer, while other manufacturer's are related to the family consumer buyer.

Chris
creemail is offline  
post #7 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 01:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cajieboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Space Coast, Florida
Posts: 4,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 28
The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market. You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole. Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not. Actually, Pioneer has put themselves in the best possible position to carry on making quality displays by outsourcing its most risky & expensive part...namely the glass units. That's a lot of red ink they just erased off their balance sheets, and now Pioneer R&D can concentrate more on the internal electronics and video processing, etc. In fact, Pioneer may even decide later to put their expertise & patented video tech into whatever medium they fit to choose, whether it be Plasma, LCD, OLED, etc. or all the above. That's a good position to be situated in, and not locked into one particular video tech.
cajieboy is offline  
post #8 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 01:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cajieboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Space Coast, Florida
Posts: 4,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by creemail View Post

This summerizes their market appeal:



As I stated in other posts and D-Nice as well...Pioneer's focus is to the HT buyer, while other manufacturer's are related to the family consumer buyer.

Chris

I noticed you posted as I was typing...looks like we are both in total agreement here.
cajieboy is offline  
post #9 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market. You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole.

Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not.

Yes, but Lexus is of course just a division of Toyota, which DOES make products for the average consumer.

In fact, the average consumer is their bread and butter.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #10 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 01:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
creemail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,087
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

I noticed you posted as I was typing...looks like we are both in total agreement here.

Absolutely! I love your analogy and post as well.

Chris
creemail is offline  
post #11 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 02:00 PM
Member
 
uminchu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market. You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole. Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not. Actually, Pioneer has put themselves in the best possible position to carry on making quality displays by outsourcing its most risky & expensive part...namely the glass units. That's a lot of red ink they just erased off their balance sheets, and now Pioneer R&D can concentrate more on the internal electronics and video processing, etc. In fact, Pioneer may even decide later to put their expertise & patented video tech into whatever medium they fit to choose, whether it be Plasma, LCD, OLED, etc. or all the above. That's a good position to be situated in, and not locked into one particular video tech.

IIRC, one of Pioneer's innovations for improving their PDP black levels was a reshaping the plasma cell, somewhat turning it on it's side, in order to reduce the luminescent footprint. This was, to my understanding, unique to Pioneer panels, and lowered the overall "glow" (please correct me if I am misunderstanding or just flat out wrong about this). I realize Pioneer innovates in other forms as well, such as scaling and processing, etc. For this post, I am speaking only of the cells themselves.

If Matsushita supplies the panels, is it fair to speculate that one of three things might occur as a result?
1) Separate production line dedicated to Pioneer glass, produced to Pioneer defined methods and/or spec.
2) Common production lines in which Panasonic and Pioneer panels (as well as other Matsushita sourced OEM glass for players such as Vizio, etc) all benefit from Pioneer cell technology.
3) Common production lines where Pioneer's unique cell architecture is discarded, with some measure or degree of Pioneer PQ sacrificed in the process.

Just wondering ...
uminchu is offline  
post #12 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 04:27 PM
VFR
AVS Special Member
 
VFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

The article makes a huge mistake in these comparisons, especially when comparing pricing between Pioneer & Panasonic. Pioneer is not marketing to the average consumer, but rather a niche high-end market.

Pioneer panels sit on shelves next to all the other manuf. in all the usual big box stores. Including Costso. Not so niche high-end IMO.

Quote:


You could say it's similar to Lexus marketing vs Chevrolet marketing. Chevrolet makes and sells many more cars than Lexus, and thus have a bigger impact on the car industry as a whole. Does that mean Lexus will stop making cars for its niche high-end buyers. No, of course not.

Marketing is great if it works.
Lexus has made Toyota lots of money.


Quote:


Actually, Pioneer has put themselves in the best possible position to carry on making quality displays by outsourcing its most risky & expensive part...namely the glass units. That's a lot of red ink they just erased off their balance sheets, and now Pioneer R&D can concentrate more on the internal electronics and video processing, etc.

While on the face of it that sounds great , there comes a point where volume falls to such a level that even outsourcing becomes cost prohibitive.When Pioneer announced this deal with Panasonic they had a planned production of 480k panels.As of last quarter they where down to 350k panels.The same problem they had occurs again.They can no longer achieve any kind of economy of scale.



Quote:


In fact, Pioneer may even decide later to put their expertise & patented video tech into whatever medium they fit to choose, whether it be Plasma, LCD, OLED, etc. or all the above. That's a good position to be situated in, and not locked into one particular video tech.

Perhaps but R+D takes cash and Pioneer is currently funding with Corporate bonds to stabalise their situation.Their last projection for free cash flow is now Fiscal 2011.
VFR is offline  
post #13 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 04:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cajieboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Space Coast, Florida
Posts: 4,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by uminchu View Post

IIRC, one of Pioneer's innovations for improving their PDP black levels was a reshaping the plasma cell, somewhat turning it on it's side, in order to reduce the luminescent footprint. This was, to my understanding, unique to Pioneer panels, and lowered the overall "glow" (please correct me if I am misunderstanding or just flat out wrong about this). I realize Pioneer innovates in other forms as well, such as scaling and processing, etc. For this post, I am speaking only of the cells themselves.

If Matsushita supplies the panels, is it fair to speculate that one of three things might occur as a result?
1) Separate production line dedicated to Pioneer glass, produced to Pioneer defined methods and/or spec.
2) Common production lines in which Panasonic and Pioneer panels (as well as other Matsushita sourced OEM glass for players such as Vizio, etc) all benefit from Pioneer cell technology.
3) Common production lines where Pioneer's unique cell architecture is discarded, with some measure or degree of Pioneer PQ sacrificed in the process.

Just wondering ...

From my reading and understanding it will be #1 on your list. Panasonic is opening a brand new glass factory, and Pioneer is transferring over 300 employees (engineers, techs, etc.) from their older factory over to Panasonic's new factory to help run the line and to insure panels are being produced to Pioneer's specs. That is what I recall from reading about it over a year ago.
cajieboy is offline  
post #14 of 284 Old 01-27-2009, 04:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
cajieboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Space Coast, Florida
Posts: 4,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 28
VFR, you believe what you want. I just don't agree. I've been reading these doom & gloom "sky is falling" Chicken Little stories for over 5 years. You can like it or not. No skin off my nose. Pioneer has been producing the absolute very best displays on the planet for going on 3 straight generations, and before that they were a very close second. I think Pioneer will survive this economic meltdown just fine, thank you very much, and I well expect their next 10G displays will also be waaaay ahead of the the TV herd.
cajieboy is offline  
post #15 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 06:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

Real interesting article at The Wall Street Journal on the big upcoming wave of TV manufacturer consolidation.


System shock...the WSJ article is definitely onto the fall out likely to happen in the flat panel plasma business. I posted this in the wrong forum earlier however I thought those interested in this topic would find it of interest.

The Pioneer Kuro and Elite are the best screens on the market today but consumers simply aren't stepping up to buy them in enough numbers to keep the business going based on Pioneer's latest financials. What's going on? How can the best screens on the market by almost all expert reviews not be making money for it's manufacturer?

Pioneer has had 4 running years of annual income losses, much of their losses caused by its plasma business. http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/corp_info/...s/index-e.html
Fired their President last Fall http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2008/pdf/1030-3.pdf
Eliminated their stock dividend payout http://pioneer.jp/press/pdf/ir/080904_dividend-e.pdf
Eliminated all Plasma screen production and outsourced all plasma screen production after March 2009 to Panasonic http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n080424-6.html
Re-deployed 200 Plasma design engineers to other "growth" areas of the business... last 2 slides http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...lide_2q09e.pdf
And recently delayed their upcoming Qrtly business results (Oct-Dec 08) until Feb. 12

Their President had the following statement last Fall

Quote:
"... the Company had planned to restore the Home Electronics business to profitability in fiscal 2010 by implementing measures for restructuring the display business and improving profitability in the Home Electronics business as a whole. However, we are currently reviewing our medium-term management targets because their achievement has become extremely difficult in light of intensifying competition and sharply deteriorating business conditions highlighted by falling share prices and other developments worldwide. Pioneer plans to announce its new medium term management targets along with concrete measures by February 2009, after closely examining the year-end shopping season and other market conditions as well as economic developments going forward."

OTOH, Panasonic continues to show positive net income growth while also increasing their dividend every year for the past 5 with a forecast for a higher dividend in 09. Their plasma business is also suffering but they appear to be in a better financial position to survive the WW economic downturn.

Its also worth noting that Pioneer has lost money for its investors for the last 4 years running and is on-track to break all of their loss records with a 5th year loss for fiscal 2009 while LG, Samsung and Panasonic have never reported an annual net income loss during the past 5 years.

Pioneer clearly has a broken business model and either dramatic changes are ahead or they are going to have to sell off the business. The current path is unsustainable. Their stock is down over 80% from a year ago and I can't imagine the Bd of Directors is going to let the losses continue indefinitely. Why is Pioneer unable to make money delivering the best plasma set on the market?

Could there be a major announcement from Pioneer this year regarding their Plasma screen business? What do others think?

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #16 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 07:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

From my reading and understanding it will be #1 on your list. Panasonic is opening a brand new glass factory, and Pioneer is transferring over 300 employees (engineers, techs, etc.) from their older factory over to Panasonic's new factory to help run the line and to insure panels are being produced to Pioneer's specs. That is what I recall from reading about it over a year ago.

According to Pioneer's President summary in the Fall of last year, Pioneer will be transferring 200 Plasma design engineers to alternative "growth" areas of the business. 60% of those engineers are to be re-deployed in 2009 and the balance in 2010. They also referenced that as a part of the Panasonic deal they have already "Completed the transfer of some panel engineers to Panasonic Corporation".

slide 23 of the presentation at the link below outlines the re-deployment of the Pioneer Plasma engineers to growth areas of the business.
http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...lide_2q09e.pdf

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #17 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 08:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
xrox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by uminchu View Post

IIRC, one of Pioneer's innovations for improving their PDP black levels was a reshaping the plasma cell, somewhat turning it on it's side, in order to reduce the luminescent footprint. This was, to my understanding, unique to Pioneer panels, and lowered the overall "glow" (please correct me if I am misunderstanding or just flat out wrong about this). I realize Pioneer innovates in other forms as well, such as scaling and processing, etc. For this post, I am speaking only of the cells themselves.

Here is a list of Pioneer advancements off the top of my head:

Cell technology
1 - deep encased cell structure
2 - CEL - crystal emissive layer
3 - T shaped electrodes
4 - KURO PL-CEL on phosphor
5 - KURO CL-CEL on phosphor

Driving technology
1 - CLEAR driving (single reset only)
2 - KURO (use the address electrode as a cathode)
3 - KURO (use the address electrode to sustain first subfield)
4 - ECC (zero reset write address then erase address)

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
xrox is offline  
post #18 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 08:55 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Cleveland Plasma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 11,716
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 113 Post(s)
Liked: 393
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Anyway, this confirms my admonition that companies like Hitachi and Pioneer are not going to make it.

Who knows anymore, look around. Without the big time bail outs (and companies not lucky enogh to get bail outs)whos to say who has and who has not a strong company ??
Cleveland Plasma is online now  
post #19 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 09:00 AM
Advanced Member
 
jpniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 673
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
they should continue to produce the current Kuro's if they are making a profit anyway, why its set in stone that a new model must come out every year is beyond me.

they only need R&D to develop new tvs
jpniner is offline  
post #20 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Who knows anymore, look around.

Without the big time bail outs (and companies not lucky enough to get bail outs) who's to say who has and who has not a strong company??

The marketplace, maybe? It seems to have rendered a pretty strong thumbs-down to Pioneer's old business model, especially during this recession, that's a lot of why they have big losses and are having to restructure in order to save themselves.

I wish them luck. Ya really do want to see them survive.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #21 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

The Pioneer Kuro and Elite are the best screens on the market today but consumers simply aren't stepping up to buy them in enough numbers to keep the business going based on Pioneer's latest financials. What's going on? How can the best screens on the market by almost all expert reviews not be making money for it's manufacturer?

Pioneer has had 4 running years of annual income losses, much of their losses caused by its plasma business. page 8 http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...fact_2q09e.pdf

Fired their President last Fall http://pioneer.jp/press-e/2008/pdf/1030-3.pdf

Eliminated their stock dividend payout http://pioneer.jp/press/pdf/ir/080904_dividend-e.pdf

Eliminated all Plasma screen production and outsourced all plasma screen production after March 2009 to Panasonic http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/off...n080424-6.html

Re-deployed 200 Plasma design engineers to other "growth" areas of the business... last 2 slides http://pioneer.jp/corp/ir/library/an...lide_2q09e.pdf

And recently delayed their upcoming Qrtly business results (Oct-Dec 08) until Feb. 12

Their President had the following statement last Fall

Quote:
"... the Company had planned to restore the Home Electronics business to profitability in fiscal 2010 by implementing measures for restructuring the display business and improving profitability in the Home Electronics business as a whole. However, we are currently reviewing our medium-term management targets because their achievement has become extremely difficult in light of intensifying competition and sharply deteriorating business conditions highlighted by falling share prices and other developments worldwide. Pioneer plans to announce its new medium term management targets along with concrete measures by February 2009, after closely examining the year-end shopping season and other market conditions as well as economic developments going forward."

OTOH, Panasonic continues to show positive net income growth while also increasing their dividend every year for the past 5 with a forecast for a higher dividend in 09. Their plasma business is also suffering but they appear to be in a better financial position to survive the WW economic downturn.

Its also worth noting that Pioneer has lost money for its investors for the last 4 years running and is on-track to break all of their loss records with a 5th year loss for fiscal 2009 while LG, Samsung and Panasonic have never reported an annual net income loss during the past 5 years.

Pioneer clearly has a broken business model and either dramatic changes are ahead or they are going to have to sell off the business. The current path is unsustainable. Their stock is down over 80% from a year ago and I can't imagine the Bd of Directors is going to let the losses continue indefinitely. Why is Pioneer unable to make money delivering the best plasma set on the market?

Could there be a major announcement from Pioneer this year regarding their Plasma screen business? What do others think?


WOW... really excellent post, Heatwave.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #22 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 10:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
heatwave3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,118
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

Who knows anymore, look around. Without the big time bail outs (and companies not lucky enogh to get bail outs)whos to say who has and who has not a strong company ??

A company's balance sheet ALWAYS tells the good, bad and ugly story whichever it is? There's no real secret to it. Pioneer's engineers have designed the best of the best but perhaps at a cost that's unmarketable in today's economic climate OR Pioneer management has utterly destroyed this company with a business model that was better suited to a pre-internet marketplace that simply no longer is profitable. Clearly something is deeply wrong when a company with the best product on the market has significant net income losses for 5 years straight.

Either Pioneer will dramatically change the business model or the marketplace will change Pioneer. The current business path cannot be continued.

OPPO BDP-83 EAP (second group)
heatwave3 is offline  
post #23 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 10:55 AM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 View Post

A company's balance sheet ALWAYS tells the good, bad and ugly story whichever it is? There's no real secret to it. Pioneer's engineers have designed the best of the best but perhaps at a cost that's unmarketable in today's economic climate OR Pioneer management has utterly destroyed this company with a business model that was better suited to a pre-internet marketplace that simply no longer is profitable. Clearly something is deeply wrong when a company with the best product on the market has significant net income losses for 5 years straight.

Either Pioneer will dramatically change the business model or the marketplace will change Pioneer. The current business path cannot be continued.

Its what they call the "Gucci" approach. Its not going to fly in these days and times. AVS enthusiasts and Pioneer advocates are not enough to sustain that company.

You can only play people's emotion and sense pride for so long and eventually their pratical minds are going to take over.

Also, where are the A/V boutique shops? They're pretty much gone, they're a dying breed.
Auditor55 is offline  
post #24 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 11:07 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Carled's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,965
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Its what they call the "Gucci" approach. Its not going to fly in these days and times. AVS enthusiasts and Pioneer advocates are not enough to sustain that company.

You can only play people's emotion and sense pride for so long and eventually their pratical minds are going to take over.

Also, where are the A/V boutique shops? They're pretty much gone, they're a dying breed.

Last time I looked Gucci was still in business.
Carled is offline  
post #25 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post

Last time I looked Gucci was still in business.

Just because you're high-end doesn't mean you're completely invulnerable to economic slowdowns, or that you don't have to have a great business model.

For every Gucci there's probably several Jaguars or Land Rovers... companies or divisions of companies that cater to the high-end but can't make it on their own and end up getting sold off or merged. And probably as a company Pio would more closely resemble a car company than a fashion/handbag company, because, like a car company, Pioneer has to deal with huge R&D and manufacturing facility/fab costs that are probably well beyond what a handbag maker has to deal with.

Look at the Pioneer balance sheet numbers Heatwave posted and tell us what you see. It doesn't seem to be very pretty.

And I guess this brings me to another point... would it really be all that bad if Pioneer's plasma TV business and assets, somewhere down the road, ended up being sold off to, say, Panasonic?

Could ppl live with that, or would there be bedlam?

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #26 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 11:34 AM
Member
 
uminchu's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 149
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

Its what they call the "Gucci" approach. Its not going to fly in these days and times. AVS enthusiasts and Pioneer advocates are not enough to sustain that company.

You can only play people's emotion and sense pride for so long and eventually their pratical minds are going to take over.

Also, where are the A/V boutique shops? They're pretty much gone, they're a dying breed.

It is also possible that Pioneer products are not unfairly priced, but that their engineering, innovations and manufacturing processes add up to a costlier product. They need to maintain their margins, because let's face it, they're not in business to give their products away. I do not know this to be a fact, I only offer it as a possibility.

The fact that their products cost more than you wish to pay does not necessarily convict them of being the arrogant, evil entity that you insist they are, nor does their current fiscal dilemma in a global recession mean that you know this market better than Pioneer. You don't want to pony up for a Kuro, fine, that's your choice to make. But to think that you understand the demographics and the market forces at play better than Pioneer does only makes you sound more arrogant than what you try to make them out to be.
uminchu is offline  
post #27 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 11:56 AM
VFR
AVS Special Member
 
VFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wYBCQD95VUQ080


Quote:
Citing no sources, Japan's top business daily, the Nikkei, said Wednesday Panasonic may incur a net loss of about 100 billion yen ($1.1 billion) in the fiscal year ending March 2009. It would mark the first net loss in six years for Panasonic.

Panasonic net profit last year was $2.7 billion for comparison.

Thats almost a $4 billion dollar swing.
VFR is offline  
post #28 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...wYBCQD95VUQ080

Panasonic net profit last year was $2.7 billion for comparison.

Thats almost a $4 billion dollar swing.


That's true, but as the article also says, it's Panny's first annual loss in six years.

Compare that to Pioneer, who's lost money four out of the past four years (and 2009 will almost certainly make it five for five).

I think you might have to distinguish between companies who are basically healthy but are going to take some lumps during the current severe recession (even Samsung, who's doing really well, posted a loss recently), and companies that were kinda broken or only doing so-so even before the recession hit.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
post #29 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 12:58 PM
VFR
AVS Special Member
 
VFR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,027
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Panasonic clearly isn't in the same situation as Pioneer but I think you might be missing the point.
The industry as a whole is in a mess.This revelation should only deepen the concern for those at the opposite end of the market share spectrum.
VFR is offline  
post #30 of 284 Old 01-28-2009, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
SystemShock2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, in the state of Californication
Posts: 1,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by VFR View Post

Panasonic clearly isn't in the same situation as Pioneer but I think you might be missing the point.

The industry as a whole is in a mess. This revelation should only deepen the concern for those at the opposite end of the market share spectrum.

No, I think we're saying sort of the same thing, just in different ways.

The "whole industry" isn't really in a mess aside from the temporary fact of the severe recession. That recession will weaken or eliminate the companies that don't have good business models and/or aren't run well. Leaving more room and future growth/profit potential for the stronger companies, who will absorb some of the weaker ones.

Hey, it's just how the capitalism game is played.

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead."
SystemShock2 is offline  
Reply Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off