Are DVDs really 480p? 480p vs. 720p question. - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post
I don't get why that option isn't being displayed. I assume you're checking for the option when a disc is in playback mode ? Or if it's because of some user-mode selected and that option only shows under certain conditions? Maybe it's something to do with the TV? Though that TV does say it can accept 1080i and 1080p (even if not at 24Hz) - or the connection - I assume you're using HDMI. Or maybe it's only on the player for a different region?

I wonder if it's worth contacting (eg. email or online) Panasonic support about it to find out why that option isn't displayed/how to get it to?
Hahahahaha... Panasonic support is NOT...

I'm using HDMI. It is impossible to bring up the Panasonic SCBTT490 device menu while a disc is playing.

The TV is fixed at 1920x1080p@60Hz.
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post #92 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 06:46 PM
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I bought the Panasonic SCBTT490 Home Theater only for the 5.1 audio. I watched DVDs and BDs on my laptop. I connected to the Home Theater for the first time after I bought it and was shocked to find that it required a TV. I thought I'd just connect the HDMI and have 5.1 audio.

I bought the TV only so I could see the on-screen menus so that I could actually use the Home Theater audio.
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post #93 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 07:01 PM
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[quote Gary
The ultimate way to display a standard DVD on an HD display is via an "upscaling DVD player", which reads the 480i signal, converts to 480p, then "scales" the 480p output to 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. However, due to the copy protection rules, the upscaling DVD player must use an HDMI interface.[/quote]

Re/ tubetwister

+ 1
I upscale my DVD' s and rips to 1080p with either PS3/HDMI or PC /HDMI works astonishly good with a well mastered DVD

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
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post #94 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
I found WMC on my Win7-64 laptop. I put "Enigma" into the BD drive and ran WMC. I have no controls or status as you describe. There's no menu. There's no real context menu. If I right-click, what comes up is the most primitive functions imaginable. Certainly there's no disc status with bit rates and frame rate, etc. My Win7 is Home Premium 64 Bit.
When the DVD is playing, press 4, 1, 1, then Ctrl-D. If you have a WMC remote you could also use 4, 1, 1, Info. This should bring up a series of diagnostic screens as shown in this example.
http://www.missingremote.com/guide/t...7-media-center

Use the arrow keys to move forward & backward through the screens. There's about 5 or 6 screens & the one I was looking at is the last one.
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post #95 of 145 Old 06-29-2014, 09:24 PM
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"Antique" DVD media, still being sold and rented!

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Originally Posted by Carled View Post
You actually necroed a thread from half a decade ago to start an internet argument? Seriously? Sometimes members of my species scare me.

As for that antique storage medium known as the DVD, it stores things as sixty interlaced fields per second (fifty in PAL format), and someone storing a film on it could choose between taking 24/25/30 frames and breaking it up into fields (telecine), or storing something that's shot in interlaced format if for some reason they wanted temporal resolution more than spatial resolution. It sure sounds like a whacky way of doing things now, but DVD was designed back in the dark ages of the early 90s when most of the world was using CRTs (kids: ask your parents) and the engineers clearly didn't forsee the signal processing revolution of the late 90s and 00s.

But all of this is moot now, we now live in a brave new future where things are actually stored progressively on the disc in the first place. I'm still waiting for my flying car, though.
Sure, I prefer blu-ray (or the highest fidelity source possible) when available, and I emphatically urge my friends to buy and rent only blu-ray discs when available, but as of now, June 2014, it is clear to me that retail stores (both physical stores and online), video rental stores and kiosks are still stocking DVDs - not just a few DVDs, but still a huge number of discs. I have encouraged people to invest in blu-ray media over DVD true, but for some content, the DVD is still all that is available, so yes, the DVD format is still relevant and worthy of discussion. I would plausibly consider Beta,VHS, LaserDisc, and CED et al, (CartriVision anyone?) to be antique consumer video formats, but in 2014, not yet DVD. Film is a series of still frames on a roll, in most cases, 24 full FPS, "progressive" in nature, forming a whole image at once, which is what is desirable to reproduce - the original recording as it is.

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post #96 of 145 Old 06-30-2014, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cantremembername
The only video formats allowed is 480i interlaced video on a DVD disc..
And 576i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
How would someone know this, homerging?
Some DVD and Blu-ray players can display encoding format and bitrate information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonKnox View Post
Sure, I prefer blu-ray (or the highest fidelity source possible) when available, and I emphatically urge my friends to buy and rent only blu-ray discs when available, but as of now, June 2014, it is clear to me that retail stores (both physical stores and online), video rental stores and kiosks are still stocking DVDs - not just a few DVDs, but still a huge number of discs. I have encouraged people to invest in blu-ray media over DVD true, but for some content, the DVD is still all that is available, so yes, the DVD format is still relevant and worthy of discussion. I would plausibly consider Beta,VHS, LaserDisc, and CED et al, (CartriVision anyone?) to be antique consumer video formats, but in 2014, not yet DVD. Film is a series of still frames on a roll, in most cases, 24 full FPS, "progressive" in nature, forming a whole image at once, which is what is desirable to reproduce - the original recording as it is.
From the point of view of the average person a DVD is a disc and a Blu-ray is a disc so they are equivalent and similar and replacing a DVD player with a Blu-ray player is pointlessly replacing like with like.
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post #97 of 145 Old 06-30-2014, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by homerging View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by markfilipak
How would someone know this, homerging?
Some DVD and Blu-ray players can display encoding format and bitrate information.
Hi Homer,
At issue was: How would someone playing a (region 1) DVD know that the decoder had applied a 3-2 pull-down to the 720x480p24fps MPEG2 stream? Essentially, how can one see that a soft-pull-down flag (which by inference exists) is set, and that the player is actually honoring it? I've not seen player software (God forbid that a real player, even with on-screen status available, would give statistics like this) that shows this sort to stuff. Have you?

Of even more import: How can one know that a DVD has been properly made?

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post #98 of 145 Old 06-30-2014, 06:16 PM
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If the disc has issues such as improper pulldown, perhaps it's the display that's getting tripped up. On the Vizio's menu I noticed under the advanced settings there is a Film Mode setting with AUTO or OFF. You might try turning it off to see what difference it makes. An inconsistent cadence may be causing trouble.
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post #99 of 145 Old 07-01-2014, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
If the disc has issues such as improper pulldown, perhaps it's the display that's getting tripped up. On the Vizio's menu I noticed under the advanced settings there is a Film Mode setting with AUTO or OFF. You might try turning it off to see what difference it makes. An inconsistent cadence may be causing trouble.
Good thinking my friend, but we seem to have differing Vizios. Mine doesn't have "Advanced Settings" or "Film Mode".
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post #100 of 145 Old 07-01-2014, 12:15 PM
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Everything you ever need to know about DVDs and de-interlacing can be found here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html. Although it was written almost 15 years ago. It still applies to DVDs today although most of those chipsets mentioned are gone with some integrated into the new video processing chips found in high end BD players or AVRs.
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post #101 of 145 Old 07-01-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Everything you ever need to know about DVDs and de-interlacing can be found here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html. Although it was written almost 15 years ago. It still applies to DVDs today although most of those chipsets mentioned are gone with some integrated into the new video processing chips found in high end BD players or AVRs.
Thank you for that, Foxbat. I've scanned through that article before, but now that I look at it again, especially the CUE section, the more I think the problem with "Engima" may be this: That's CUE (chroma upsampling error). I guess that fingers the Panasonic Home Theater, not the Sony Pictures DVD of "Enigma". What say you?

I wonder why, after probably over 1000 different movies, this shows up only on that one disc?
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post #102 of 145 Old 07-01-2014, 12:48 PM
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IIRC, CUE is a rare condition and a bug inside the DVD player when it decodes MPEG2 into video stream, not de-interlacer. Because it is such a rare occurrence, most chipsets were, and still are, not properly tested against this bug.
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post #103 of 145 Old 07-02-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Good thinking my friend, but we seem to have differing Vizios. Mine doesn't have "Advanced Settings" or "Film Mode".
I was looking at a pdf manual for the E241-A1 from the Vizio store (link below). On page 5 it says

1. From the Picture Settings menu, use the Arrow buttons on the remote to highlight More, then press OK.

2. Use the Arrow buttons on the remote to highlight Advanced Picture, then press OK. The Advanced Picture menu is displayed.

3. Use the Arrow buttons to highlight the setting you wish to adjust, then press Left/Right Arrow to change the setting

http://store.vizio.com/documents/dow.../UM_E241A1.pdf

Obviously that probably won't help if it's a chroma upconversion or encoding error.
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post #104 of 145 Old 07-02-2014, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
...On the Vizio's menu I noticed under the advanced settings there is a Film Mode setting with AUTO or OFF. You might try turning it off to see what difference it makes. An inconsistent cadence may be causing trouble.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Good thinking my friend, but we seem to have differing Vizios. Mine doesn't have "Advanced Settings" or "Film Mode".
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
I was looking at a pdf manual for the E241-A1 from the Vizio store (link below). On page 5 it says

1. From the Picture Settings menu...
Ah! The "Picture" menu. I was into the "Settings" menu. There is indeed this:
'Picture' > 'More' > 'Advance Picture' > 'Film Mode'.
I'll turn it off... be right back...........

..........Didn't fix it. In the process I found that the TV was also doing some slight mucking about with the picture, so I turned that stuff off too.

Now I can definitely say that in the 'bad' scenes on the "Engima" disc, the problem is CUE, not combing. Diagonals are indeed looking like the diagonals in the "Toy Story" capture I posted.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... You're never going to believe........

I switched the TV 'Picture' > 'Picture mode' from "Standard" to "Movie". Of course I don't know what that actually does, but everything changed. Then I turned every setting that had "Auto" to "Off" instead in both the Home Theater menu and the TV menu. Then I set everything I could find to the dumbest, most manual mode I could find. Then I flattened all of them: Set "+/-<number>"-type controls to "0". Set all the "0"-to-"100"-type controls to "50" (including backlight).

For the most part, the problems have gone away, and I've never had a better picture.

I guess when a user interface has been dummed down to the extent that this one has, you have to hit it with a heavy hammer.
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post #105 of 145 Old 07-03-2014, 08:52 AM
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Glad to hear things have improved. The Film mode may be worth leaving on. My guess it looks for pulldown and does reverse telecine instead of normal de-interlacing.

It's sad that products are shipped with all these 'features' enabled. Vivid torch mode with added sharpness, noise reduction and others really degrade the image. Even worse is this trend isn't limited to consumer equipment. At least one professional manufacturer (Evertz) was shipping some processing products with sharpness enabled and set with a noticeably high level. While such tactics may help sell TVs on a showroom floor, such practices on professional equipment is inexcusable.

In the past, using a hammer on equipment was sometimes referred to as 'The RCA Treatment' though in that case an actual hammer was used. Some said the acronym stood for Requires Constant Attention or Really Crappy Apparatus. A funny parody was created by the BBC of Runaround Sue about Edit Suite 2 regarding the unreliability of RCA TR70 VTRs as their brake systems had a tendency to shred tape. "If you don't want to cry like I do, I'd keep away from Edit Suite 2".

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post #106 of 145 Old 07-03-2014, 11:37 AM
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Thank you, TVOD, but "RCA" stands for "Radio Corporation of America". That's America, fool. And as anyone will tell you, all the best stuff comes from America because America is the capital of capitalism. So stop spreading Communist propaganda and get on board the global capitalism train.
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post #107 of 145 Old 07-03-2014, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
Glad to hear things have improved. The Film mode may be worth leaving on. My guess it looks for pulldown and does reverse telecine instead of normal de-interlacing.
The TV has a Film Mode, but the Home Theater that feeds it doesn't have a recognizable Film Mode. I have the Home Theater set up to output only 1080p.
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post #108 of 145 Old 07-03-2014, 12:36 PM
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Thank you, TVOD, but "RCA" stands for "Radio Corporation of America". That's America, fool. And as anyone will tell you, all the best stuff comes from America because America is the capital of capitalism. So stop spreading Communist propaganda and get on board the global capitalism train.
As American as Technicolor, n'est-ce pas? Maybe it should be RCF now

RCA was such a odd mixture of innovation, dishonesty and ultimate stupidity with their demise largely from stubbornness pursuing SelectaVision. Sad it's just a name now. At CES a few years ago an Asian licensee was giving away little stuffed Nippers. The people at the booth had no idea what the significance of Nipper was, and I showed them the classic image with the immortal phrase 'His Master's Voice'.

R.I.P. Radio Corporation of America. Still got my hammer in case you come back.
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post #109 of 145 Old 07-03-2014, 01:35 PM
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Americans are so........ entertaining. The world is my facebook and my heart's all a-twitter.
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post #110 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 03:48 AM
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I got this rather insulting unsolicited PM from new member markfilipak I'll post it here as well as my reply as a heads up for us
and will ofc report this to AVS staff . Ordinarily I would never discuss a PM in the forum threads but in this case I will make an exception .

Unsolicited PM from markfilipak,
"You know, I keep looking at what you wrote here: Are DVDs really 480p? 480p vs. 720p question.

"I upscale my DVD' s and rips to 1080p with either PS3/HDMI or PC /HDMI works astonishly good with a well mastered DVD"

and, knowing that you're an AVS Special Member, and figuring that "Special" here doesn't hold the same meaning as "Special" in "Special Education", well, I figure there's got to be a hidden meaning.

Have you built some sort of capture device that you plug on the end of an HDMI cable that then records what's coming through the HDMI and thereby "rips" the video without actually ripping?

Ciao,

Mark Filipak."


Reply to markfilipak unsolicited and rude PM tube twister


Mark you should know that PM's are not the place for unsolicited questions or discussions .
if you don't you do now.

If you have something to say man up and post it in the forum threads .

Insulting Unsolicited PM's are a big no no here and you could loose your forum privliges when I report this to the AVS staff . I suspect that wouldn't be the first time for you someplace though.

Mark , Not a good way for a newbie to behave here keep it up and I can almost guarantee you will be banned . Do not send me anymore PM's they will also be reported to the staff here at AVS .


I usually welcome new members but in your case I will make an exception and not.

It seems you might need a little education to wit:

Quote:
Ripping is the process of copying audio or video content to a hard disk, typically from removable media such as compact disc (CD) or DVD, although the word refers to all forms of media. Despite the name, neither the media nor the data is damaged after extraction. Ripping is often used to shift formats, and to edit, duplicate or back up media content. Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) is a more formal phrase applied to the ripping of audio CDs. A rip is the copied content, in its destination format, along with accompanying files (such as a cue sheet or log file from the ripping software).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping
BTW uspcaling as applied here is usually done by the playback device be it a P.C. HTPC , upscaling BD/DVD player ,game console or other device

I might just post this discourse for all to see maybe some one will get a laugh out of it

You are a funny guy not necessarily behaving very smart though.You are way out of your league here my friend

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #111 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Americans are so........ entertaining. The world is my facebook and my heart's all a-twitter.
I just thought I would add no one is leaving America in rickety boats or otherwise crossing boarders to leave America .

Not to mention if it weren't for America much of the world as it is known today might still be dominated by the WW II axis powers or worse .

Just something to think about .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #112 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 04:37 AM
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[QUOTE=[B]TVOD[/B];25468890]As American as Technicolor, n'est-ce pas? Maybe it should be RCF now

RCA was such a odd mixture of innovation, dishonesty and ultimate stupidity with their demise largely from stubbornness


re tube twister
Yes David Sarnoff and RCA had a few skeletons in the closets long before Selectavision
(big fail in part due to in fighting and mismanagement ) this is true and OFC Sony had Betavision .

Edwin Howard Armstrong (AKA the inventor of F.M. radio ) would be onother of them although RCA prospered from it rather dishonestly in part though.

OTOH RCA's size engineering prowess and scale allowed innovations such as the superheterodyne radio
and electronic color tv that would surely have been delayed otherwise by perhaps at least decade or longer .

IIRC the competing CBS system in the early 1950's was in large part electromechanical and the stillborn Philco Apple color TV was much later (one of the early precursors to the Sony Trinitron )

Of course the question remains without RCA investment and innovation
just what would we be watching today ? RCA was one of those Iconic companies where a love hate relationship was not impossible .............. something to think about .

regards

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-04-2014 at 05:05 AM.
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post #113 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 07:47 AM
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Dear tubetwister,

I 'm sincerely sorry you were insulted by my PM. I have no idea what you found insulting. Since you bring this into a public forum, would you kindly point out what you find insulting so that I can correct the misunderstanding.

To everyone else: Please excuse this public disturbance. I'm sure there's a serious misunderstanding here and I hope it can be fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I got this rather insulting unsolicited PM from new member markfilipak I'll post it here as well as my reply as a heads up for us
and will ofc report this to AVS staff . Ordinarily I would never discuss a PM in the forum threads but in this case I will make an exception .

Unsolicited PM from markfilipak,
"You know, I keep looking at what you wrote here: Are DVDs really 480p? 480p vs. 720p question.

"I upscale my DVD' s and rips to 1080p with either PS3/HDMI or PC /HDMI works astonishly good with a well mastered DVD"

and, knowing that you're an AVS Special Member, and figuring that "Special" here doesn't hold the same meaning as "Special" in "Special Education", well, I figure there's got to be a hidden meaning.

Have you built some sort of capture device that you plug on the end of an HDMI cable that then records what's coming through the HDMI and thereby "rips" the video without actually ripping?

Ciao,

Mark Filipak."


Reply to markfilipak unsolicited and rude PM tube twister


Mark you should know that PM's are not the place for unsolicited questions or discussions .
Do you mean that a PM should only be sent if the person addressed has asked to be PMed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
if you don't you do now.

If you have something to say man up and post it in the forum threads .
Kindly tell me to what you refer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Insulting Unsolicited PM's are a big no no here and you could loose your forum privliges when I report this to the AVS staff . I suspect that wouldn't be the first time for you someplace though.
?

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Mark , Not a good way for a newbie to behave here keep it up and I can almost guarantee you will be banned . Do not send me anymore PM's they will also be reported to the staff here at AVS .
Well, you can bank on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I usually welcome new members but in your case I will make an exception and not.

It seems you might need a little education to wit:



BTW uspcaling as applied here is usually done by the playback device be it a P.C. HTPC , upscaling BD/DVD player ,game console or other device

I might just post this discourse for all to see maybe some one will get a laugh out of it

You are a funny guy not necessarily behaving very smart though.You are way out of your league here my friend
?
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post #114 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
Of course the question remains without RCA investment and innovation just what would we be watching today ? RCA was one of those Iconic companies where a love hate relationship was not impossible .............. something to think about .

regards
That is exactly true. We're far better off that there was a RCA than where we would have been without it, though Philo Farnsworth might have taken issue with that. Even though CBS's incompatible 144 filed (effectively 48i) color system was initially adopted, the compatible NTSC color system was created and still lives on over 60 years later. NBC gave us the earliest color TV programming, and RCA developed the first color recording system, albeit color under. Much to admire about RCA. In its heyday, RCA was a company one could purchase everything needed to build a TV station though it was probably a good idea to keep a hammer handy someplace.
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post #115 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Dear tubetwister,

I 'm sincerely sorry you were insulted by my PM. I have no idea what you found insulting. Since you bring this into a public forum, would you kindly point out what you find insulting so that I can correct the misunderstanding.

To everyone else: Please excuse this public disturbance. I'm sure there's a serious misunderstanding here and I hope it can be fixed.


Do you mean that a PM should only be sent if the person addressed has asked to be PMed?


Kindly tell me to what you refer.


?


Well, you can bank on that.


?
If you can not figure it out I am not going to waste my time besides I do not believe you are being honest in that you do not understand what is insulting if you do not that is your problem not mine and further your posts have thus far contributed nothing useful to this forum at least in this thread.
Your attitude is also pedantic (childish ) As I stated before you do not have my permission to send me PM's

I have reported your behavior to the AVS staff maybe we will get lucky and you will either quit posting here or get banned.
Please do not communicate with me directly in any manner or I will put you on ignore in the user control panel and that will happen anyway .

best thing for you to do is shove off mate or at the very least not communicate with me in any way instead you should read the wikipedia link I provided I think that will answer some of your questions .
Again sending PM to anyone without permission is not acceptable .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-04-2014 at 08:59 AM.
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post #116 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 08:52 AM
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I just thought I would add no one is leaving America in rickety boats or otherwise crossing boarders to leave America .
Nor all other countries save one or two. Except for the people who leave their native lands because of threat, like all those sad Central American children who are forced out by gang violence at home, the migrants who do come here mostly seek money, not freedom or justice.

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Not to mention if it weren't for America much of the world as it is known today might still be dominated by the WW II axis powers or worse .
That was a long time ago. America is a much different country now. Sadly, America has no principles anymore. Money is the only metric by which value is measured.
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post #117 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 09:10 AM
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That is exactly true. We're far better off that there was a RCA than where we would have been without it, though Philo Farnsworth might have taken issue with that. Even though CBS's incompatible 144 filed (effectively 48i) color system was initially adopted, the compatible NTSC color system was created and still lives on over 60 years later. NBC gave us the earliest color TV programming, and RCA developed the first color recording system, albeit color under. Much to admire about RCA. In its heyday, RCA was a company one could purchase everything needed to build a TV station though it was probably a good idea to keep a hammer handy someplace.
I remember reading about the CBS thing being adapted and then they changed over to the RCA system I bet CBS was pissed but the thing was kinda crude .

My family had an large Curtis Mathes 3 in one color combo TV /Stereo yet bought it in early late 1962 IIRC
It had a 21" round tube and RCA CRT and an RCA ctc 12 chassis or clone in it something like 22 tubes just on the TV side . I think all the Color TV's were either RCA chassis or licenced clones then and all used RCA tubes at least for a few years .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-04-2014 at 11:23 PM.
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post #118 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Nor all other countries save one or two. Except for the people who leave their native lands because of threat, like all those sad Central American children who are forced out by gang violence at home, the migrants who do come here mostly seek money, not freedom or justice.


That was a long time ago. America is a much different country now. Sadly, America has no principles anymore. Money is the only metric by which value is measured.
Every nation is about $$ some steal others beg some give that's all .

Not the forum nor is it allowed here to discuss politics I would sugesst Political chat.org for that .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-04-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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post #119 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 09:21 AM
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. "can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

Last edited by tubetwister; 07-04-2014 at 06:58 PM.
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post #120 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 09:23 AM
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Not the forum nor is it allowed here to discuss politics I would sugesst Political chat.org for that .
Are we discussing politics? I don't recall mentioning any political party. I responded to TVOD's sig line, then you stepped in.

Would you kindly tell me to what you felt insulted.
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