Are DVDs really 480p? 480p vs. 720p question. - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 11:17 AM
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #122 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 11:18 AM
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Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #123 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Are we discussing politics? I don't recall mentioning any political party. I responded to TVOD's sig line, then you stepped in.

Would you kindly tell me to what you felt insulted.
I hate to be the one to tell you AGAIN it seem like a waste of time but you and I are not discussing anything get over it !

OH and if you don't like USA stay off of our worldwide web you do know we own it after all !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
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post #124 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
I hate to be the one to tell you AGAIN it seem like a waste of time but you and I are not discussing anything get over it !

OH and if you don't like USA stay off of our worldwide web you do know we own it after all !
I still don't know why you felt offended by my PM and I wish you'd relax at bit.

The U.S. doesn't own the World Wide Web. The U.S. didn't even create the World Wide Web. We weren't discussing politics. I'm a native American. And your "political" attitude and reactionary impulse amply illustrates what's going wrong with America. Political excess has paralyzed Congress and is paralyzing the country. Normal personal relationships are becoming harder and harder to establish and maintain. I think American society is breaking down in epic ways. I only hope that the oligarchy doesn't turn to war once again in order to distract the populace from the real problems.
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post #125 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
I still don't know why you felt offended by my PM and I wish you'd relax at bit.

The U.S. doesn't own the World Wide Web. The U.S. didn't even create the World Wide Web.
A common spin, but yes we did despite how wikipedia tries to spin it into something British and CERN based. There is nothing about the WWW that resembles that early foray---it was all developed into something coherent (and globally viral) here. Further, the internet technology serving it all underneath many years earlier was also done here as well, also despite the addition of British and French mentions in misinformationpedia.

Anyway, you two, enough of this please. I'm the worst offender when it comes to not backing down in an argument (believe me), but you two have gone off the rails in this case. I'm not even going to mention who's side I'm more in concert with because it just doesn't matter and frankly after all of this back and forth I'm not even sure I know any longer.

FWIW, this is not considered a US only forum. It's been mentioned a few times that AVS tries to be internationally friendly and available.

User interface engineers: Always try to think in terms of putting in "un-do"s and not confirmation dialogs on every single question! Good grief! We're STILL doing this junior level newbie nonsense in 2015?????
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post #126 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by markfilipak View Post
Would you kindly tell me to what you felt insulted.
I assume it was the part of the post that read "knowing that you're an AVS Special Member, and figuring that "Special" here doesn't hold the same meaning as "Special" in "Special Education", well, I figure there's got to be a hidden meaning" part of the post. Which might have been taken as an insult? eg. it sounds like you might be suggesting that if there wasn't some 'hidden meaning' to what was written, that the poster must have "special education needs".
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post #127 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 02:24 PM
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tgm1024and Joe Bloggs

Thanks for your comments



Now All that being said lets all of us here in the US and any expats abroad and especially our veterans, servicemen, and women here and around the globe enjoy the holiday and celebrate our independence and hard earned freedoms and have a cold one!

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #128 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 03:46 PM
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DVDs aren't just 480i (NTSC countries), but many (and almost all of the older ones) are also 4:3 (a.k.a., 1.33:1), the so-called "full-screen" typically being pan-and-scan to cut off the sides to fill a 4:3 (1.33:1) screen.

I'm watching Independence Day (1996), which on my 50-in HDTV should look fine and do a decent job of showing that feature in HD with the original aspect ratio of 2.35:1 on my TV with two 3-in letterbox bars (since the TV's aspect ratio is 1.78:1). But, no, many moons ago I had purchased a DVD, and it's pan-and-scan! (It must have been purchased when I had a 24-in SD TV as my "big" TV.) So, instead of enjoying a HD version of Independence Day in its original aspect ratio with a couple of letterbox bars, I have pillar bars and 43% of the picture had been chopped off of the sides, and even then it's SD (no fine detail, even though the image takes the whole 24.5-inch height of the display unit).

At least it isn't window frame ("postage stamp"), which I had seen on occasion on a couple HD channels.

One of the really nice things about Blu-ray discs is that they are generally mastered with the assumption that they would be used for feeding a HDTV, so they almost always are mastered with a higher resolution than DVDs and they are more likely to preserve the original aspect ratio or at least not chop off as much of the sides than the older DVDs (like my copy of Independence Day) used to do.

Even though DVDs are still SD, at least many of them are now 16:9. (Netflix has The Fly trilogy from 1950s-1960s on DVDs in 16:9 with letterbox so it shows up on my HDTV in the original aspect ratio of 2.35:1, but since the DVDs are SD, the fine detail just isn't there, unlike Star Wars: The Complete Saga I had purchased on Blu-ray, also 2.35:1, but with the fine detail for all six movies.)

Even though Netflix hasn't been advertising their DVD plans, their disc mailers have been advertising Blu-ray quite a bit for the past six months. On a decent-sized HDTV viewed from a sane distance, Blu-ray is a noticeable improvement over DVD in both the fine detail on the screen and better odds of seeing the feature in the original aspect ratio.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (110Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #129 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
...
To tubetwister: I don't know how you can think that you speak for the AVS forum, and I resent your condescension.

To address your inappropriate implications: I'm 67 years old. I'm a U.S.A.F. veteran. I'm a graduate Electronics Engineer (BSEE, Ohio State University, 1974). I spent 25 years in Silicon Valley in California creating electronics product and system designs for some of the largest, most well known electronics chip and system manufacturers in the world, including Defense Contractors. Some of my designs went into aircraft and tanks currently in the arsenal. The president of just one of my former employers went on to become U.S. Secretary of Defense.

This is the last I'm going to post to this thread. I merely posted a comment about TVOD's signature line, and shortly thereafter I sent you a PM querying what you meant in the somewhat cryptic post to this thread that you made just a few posts earlier. In that PM I made a joke about your "Special" status. It was a joke, but you were offended by it and for that I'm truly sorry. But it was you who chose to make my PM ("Private Message"!!!) public. That was very inappropriate.

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post #130 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 05:18 PM
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[quote=markfilipak;25495426]To tubetwister: I don't know how you can think that you speak for the AVS forum, and I resent your condescension.

EDIT: for the sake of all of us here and the OP ............You know what you did already ............. I'm not going there again ................consider yourself owned i

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #131 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
DVDs aren't just 480i (NTSC countries), but many (and almost all of the older ones) are also 4:3 (a.k.a., 1.33:1), the so-called "full-screen" typically being pan-and-scan to cut off the sides to fill a 4:3 (1.33:1) screen.


Actually, DVDs only store (NTSC) 480i 4:3 natively (720x480). There are anamorphic DVDs that tell the player to stretch the picture horizontally to 16:9 aspect ratio with merely a flag. But the data on disc is still the same (720x480). It's the player that does the stretch. Those came later. Early DVDs are all 4:3 with some wide screen movies in letter box with top and bottom bars burnt in video data which takes away the vertical resolution of the movie. That's why they later introduced anamorphic DVDs to maximize the resolution (but for 2.35:1 movies, you still have some black bars burnt in the video).
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post #132 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Actually, DVDs only store (NTSC) 480i 4:3 natively (720x480). There are anamorphic DVDs that tell the player to stretch the picture horizontally to 16:9 aspect ratio with merely a flag. But the data on disc is still the same (720x480). It's the player that does the stretch. Those came later. Early DVDs are all 4:3 with some wide screen movies in letter box with top and bottom bars burnt in video data which takes away the vertical resolution of the movie. That's why they later introduced anamorphic DVDs to maximize the resolution (but for 2.35:1 movies, you still have some black bars burnt in the video).
re tubetwister
Is it safe to assume "widescreen DVD" are 2.35:1 and are they the best to play widescreen DVD with black bars and all to get the most accurate representation with a minimum of manipulation in HDTV playback (that trade off is fine with me ) other thing is what to look for on the DVD package to align with this.I've bought and have widescreen DVD's some recently so I'm assuming that is what I would want or have they changed a few things in the last 7 yrs. .





regards

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
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post #133 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 07:19 PM
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For DVDs, I look for word "anamorphic" on it. If it is not on it, you could get one of these early release widescreen version with letter box burnt into the video data.
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post #134 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
For DVDs, I look for word "anamorphic" on it. If it is not on it, you could get one of these early release widescreen version with letter box burnt into the video data.
Cool that answered my question perfectly thanks a lot I was wondering about that . I'm going to order some used DVD's on Amazon or paybay soon and rip them to the hdd's..for the HTPC Now I know precisely what to look for .
I read some of your posts here and will read them again never hurts to learn something ☺

I figured out full screen + pan and scan thing was a no go a while back (from AVS postings as usual ) thanks a lot !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #135 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by tubetwister View Post
re tubetwister
Is it safe to assume "widescreen DVD" are 2.35:1 and are they the best to play widescreen DVD with black bars and all to get the most accurate representation with a minimum of manipulation in HDTV playback (that trade off is fine with me ) other thing is what to look for on the DVD package to align with this.I've bought and have widescreen DVD's some recently so I'm assuming that is what I would want or have they changed a few things in the last 7 yrs.
As 2.35 is not really a video standard, I would assume widescreen refers to 1.78:1 (16:9). As such, 2.35 will be letterbox in 16:9. Interestingly enough the size of the letterbox top/bottom bars on 16:9 in 4:3 is the same as 2.35 in 16:9. Of course now there really isn't a reason to make 16:9 discs in 4:3.
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post #136 of 145 Old 07-04-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
As 2.35 is not really a video standard, I would assume widescreen refers to 1.78:1 (16:9). As such, 2.35 will be letterbox in 16:9. Interestingly enough the size of the letterbox top/bottom bars on 16:9 in 4:3 is the same as 2.35 in 16:9. Of course now there really isn't a reason to make 16:9 discs in 4:3.
Adobe (unless they've changed it recently) thinks:
720x480 anamorphic widescreen is 1.82:1 Frame aspect ratio and 720x576 anamorphic widescreen is 1.82:1 Frame aspect ratio.
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post #137 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 12:11 AM
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Good digital or film cameras are above my pay grade .............. I have a 35MM SLR and inexpensive digital point and shoot oh and a Sony handyCam .

I can use the SLR but not like a real photo camera enthusiast much less a pro that stuff can get complicated . I've had it forever along with a couple of lenses it's a Cannon AE1 takes pretty fair pictures at least that I can see.

I don't even know how to run Adobe Photoshop just paint .net and windows movie maker ha ha ...........that' not anything like Adobe . I can imagine Adobe Photoshop could get technical and then some .

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
"The wireless music box has no commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?"
- David Sarnoff's associates at RCA the 1920's -

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post #138 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post
Actually, DVDs only store (NTSC) 480i 4:3 natively (720x480). ...
And for those who do the math and wonder why this doesn't come up 4:3, it is because video DVDs use non-square pixels: for a 4:3 display aspect ratio, the pixels are slightly skinny (approx. 0.9091:1); and for a 16:9 display ("anamorphic") aspect ratio, the pixels are a bit fat (approx. 1.2121:1).

Blu-ray discs support both the DVD formats for SD (display aspect ratios of 4:3 and 16:9) and higher formats for HD (display aspect ratio of 16:9 with these resolutions: 1920x1080 with square pixels, 1440x1080 with fat pixels, or 1280x720 with square pixels). And the 1920x1080 resolution maps nicely to the 1080-line HDTVs, with overscan turned off, that is a 1:1 mapping from the Blu-ray image to the pixels on the screen.

For DVDs and Blu-ray discs with SD content where the image displayed isn't 4:3 nor 16:9, the letterbox bars or pillar bars are black bars are part of the image stored on the disc. For Blu-ray discs with HD content (16:9), the letterbox bars or pillar bars are black bars stored as part of the image. So, for a 2.35:1 movie letterboxed on a 1.78:1 display, the image occupies about 76% of the height (the other 24% being the letterbox bars); for anamorphic DVDs, of the 480 lines, only 364 lines convey the image, the rest are black; for Blu-ray discs at the highest resolution of 1080 lines, 820 lines convey the image and the rest are black. Even so, having 820 lines of picture information is far better than a mere 364 lines of information when watching 2.35:1 content, which is why when I encounter letterbox content, I prefer it on Blu-ray than on DVD. And when watching such content on a 1080-line HDTV with overscan turned off, those 820 or so lines of picture information map 1:1 to the lines on the TV screen without any scaling, whereas a DVD image would have to be rescaled for that TV.

Is it any wonder that many of us on AVSFORUM are more interested in Blu-ray discs than DVDs when it comes to watching 2.35:1 content on HDTVs and HD projectors?

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (110Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #139 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 01:32 AM
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I had a problem with a "True Lies" DVD which is windowboxed. I did not initially realize it was non-anamorphic because it displayed properly when playing with my DVD player, automatically displaying a full width 2.35:1 letterboxed image. But is does not work the same with my Blu-ray player. The image was not proper no matter which Zoom setting the TV was set to.

From what I was told a long time ago in another thread, the disc is properly flagged as "widescreen" and some players will automatically "zoom" in on the letterboxed content and others such as my Panasonic will not. The "zoom" setting has to be changed in a sub-menu for this DVD to display a full width 2.35:1 letterboxed image.
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post #140 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 02:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
As 2.35 is not really a video standard, I would assume widescreen refers to 1.78:1 (16:9). As such, 2.35 will be letterbox in 16:9. Interestingly enough the size of the letterbox top/bottom bars on 16:9 in 4:3 is the same as 2.35 in 16:9. Of course now there really isn't a reason to make 16:9 discs in 4:3.
All the better to keep us confused ........................well me anyway......... good to know though thanks !

Hires Music formats ..............."Why does it sound like a CD ?" ............. can we make it louder "?
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post #141 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 07:20 AM
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Adobe (unless they've changed it recently) thinks:
720x480 anamorphic widescreen is 1.82:1 Frame aspect ratio and 720x576 anamorphic widescreen is 1.82:1 Frame aspect ratio.
Interesting. I HATE quoting Wikipedia (often should be called Wikipinion) but on technical subjects they tend to be better:

"Allowed Aspect ratios (Display AR)

4:3 (for letterboxed widescreen and non-widescreen frames)

16:9 (for anamorphic widescreen) 1.85:1 and 2.35:1, among others, are often listed as valid DVD aspect ratios, but are wider film aspects with letterbox style padding to create a 16:9 image"

In the Adobe Encore documentation they refer to two aspect ratios: Fullscreen (4:3) and Widescreen (16:9):

"Screen aspect ratios (also known as frame aspect ratios) describe the width-to-height ratio of an image or device. A standard television has a 4:3 ratio (referred to as fullscreen), and a widescreen television has a 16:9 ratio. These ratios are also noted as 1.33 for fullscreen (4 / 3 = 1.33) and 1.78 for widescreen. (Film, which includes a majority of widescreen content, actually uses screen aspect ratios ranging from 1.66 to 1.85, or even 2.35 for scope footage. However, these all work well within the format and can be considered widescreen.)

The screen aspect ratio is determined by two factors: the resolution of the image and the size of the pixels within it, or the pixel aspect ratio. As the resolution for a given asset is constant (for example, 720 x 480), Encore sets screen aspect ratios based on the asset’s pixel aspect ratio."
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post #142 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 11:45 AM
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Interesting. I HATE quoting Wikipedia (often should be called Wikipinion) but on technical subjects they tend to be better:
See this:
http://blogs.adobe.com/aftereffects/...n-after-e.html
http://www.mikeafford.com/blog/2009/...ts-cs4-vs-cs3/
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post #143 of 145 Old 07-05-2014, 01:54 PM
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Unless I'm missing something, I only see mention of 4:3 and 16:9 video aspect ratios. But the non-square pixel issue was a hassle when computers were used in the SD days. I remember 9/10 being used for 4:3 as it needed to go back to video and fill the 720 pixels. HD was around by the time 16:9 was in common use. Where was the mention of other aspect ratios for video delivery?
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post #144 of 145 Old 07-06-2014, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TVOD View Post
Unless I'm missing something, I only see mention of 4:3 and 16:9 video aspect ratios. But the non-square pixel issue was a hassle when computers were used in the SD days. I remember 9/10 being used for 4:3 as it needed to go back to video and fill the 720 pixels. HD was around by the time 16:9 was in common use. Where was the mention of other aspect ratios for video delivery?
They're saying the pixel aspect ratio / frame aspect ratios in certain video programs changed (around 2009 and Final Cut pro around 2010?), because presets weren't correct (squares not really coming out square?). Though I'm not sure I really believe it (I'm not really sure the changes they've made are correct). Surely it depends how DVD/Blu-ray players and TVs upscale the SD formats to HD - and the TVs are 1.78:1 approx.

"I remember 9/10 being used for 4:3"
And they say that has now changed from "0.9" to "0.91" for "D1/DV NTSC" (value in CS4 is 0.91, previous value 0.9)
http://help.adobe.com/en_US/AfterEff...dea-7f3aa.html

They say (in the above link) things like "PAL D1/DV Widescreen square-pixel equivalent" changed (from version CS4) from "1024x576" to "1050x576". So for square pixels, where PAL widescreen stuff was done at 1024x576 (1024/576=1.777 so about 1.78:1) aren't they now saying PAL widescreen stuff should be done at 1050x576 (1050/576=1.823 so about 1.82:1). If you select the "PAL D1/DV Widescreen Square Pixel" preset in AE CS4 it is "1050x576" square pixels. and it says the "Frame Aspect Ratio" is "1.82".

http://www.mikeafford.com/blog/2009/...ts-cs4-vs-cs3/
"Remember that your original 16×9 image (1024×576 pixels) is only going to occupy the middle part of the TV screen...So your original (square pixel) After Effects compostion needs to be 1024+13+13 pixels wide. Namely, 1050×576 to guarantee that it maps correctly on to the 720×576 digital output.".

They say (for non-widescreen PAL), "if you previously created 768x576 square-pixel footage items to use in a PAL D1/DV composition, you should now create those items with square-pixel dimensions of 788x576". (768x576=1.33:1, 788x576=1.37:1 frame aspect ratio).

They say the pixel aspect ratio changed in other video programs around that time too "UPDATE: See this post for the news that Final Cut Pro 7 uses the corrected pixel aspect ratios, too. And see this thread for information about the Foundry making the change as a bug fix in Nuke.".

Last edited by Joe Bloggs; 07-06-2014 at 04:26 AM.
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post #145 of 145 Old 07-06-2014, 10:14 AM
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This looks to be the discrepancy between 702 and 720 horizontal pixels. While those 18 pixels are considered active video, they are in that gray area where in video that has standard blanking applied would not be visible. Therefore the aspect ratio horizontally is represented by 702 pixels rather than 720 pixels. This means the full 720 pixel aspect ratio is slightly wider, and the new values reflect this. For square pixels 576*16/9=1024 is the equivalent of 702 pixels, but for 720 needs to be 720/702 wider which for 1024 rounds to 1050. The 480 4:3 case is unique in that the square pixel equivalent has fewer horizontal pixels. The standard video aspect ratios are still limited to 4:3 and 16:9.

I remember another related issue with telecine sizing on charts where when looking at the direct output to see all 720 pixels the intuitive thing to do was to set the horizontal width to the edge of the image. But when viewed through a device that blanked the video to standard, the edges of chart were cut off. Since the analog encoders did that, I thought an easy way to set it correctly was to size it on the analog video. But when watching the transferred video, seeing all 720 pixels was necessary.
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