Why don't people know what they are looking for when they compare LCD and Plasma. - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 08:04 AM
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Theres no doubt the AVS is a wealth of knowledge and if your commenting you follow it here. But working with the public is an art, and most buying TV's aren't going to know what AV'sers know.

But just like here we all don't agree so telling someone they have to buy a certain tech over another isn't right either.

My experience is different than others so saying I'm right I just have different opinons. Do I know more than the general public? Probably but the biggest lesson to be learned is let the customer decide and sometimes thats the hard way for each particular individual.

These are just my opinions.
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post #62 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

I am having a really tough time understanding the plasma guys and their public criticism of the LCDs. Let's walk slowly through the logic.

1. The supply and demand law are still in effect: the higher the demand, the higher the price.

2. What I want to buy I want to buy at the lowest possible price.

3. Therefore, it is in my interest to keep the demand low if I can.

Not quite. You're making some initial assumptions, such as a finite supply of units in the first place. I agree that if there are only 1000 Kuro Elites in the world, and 4000 interested buyers (up from 1000 last year), you've got problems. But you're forgetting some issues of scale on the manufacturing end.

We have no idea how much it costs to make the units themselves. If the increased cost for additional units is marginal, then conceivably the cost-per-unit to the manufacturer is not that much more. Let's say manufacturer cost per unit for the 1000 units is $1000. Let's say manufacturer cost per unit for 4000 units is $1200.

But with more units, you can also spread those costs out across more buyers. So a mass-produced Kuro Elite might end up costing the individual consumer LESS than a "small market" Kuro Elite because the manufacturer can maintain or grow profit margins while simultaneously spreading the manufacturing costs across the many more customers.


So, it may still be in the interests of Kuro guys to brag because it expands the market, keeps the units flowing, and maybe...just maybe...results in a price cut as manufacturing increases.

On the other hand, maybe Pioneer simply keeps the prices wehre they are and rakes in the extra cash. I have no idea what their business model is, although I think they tend to want to sell to a smaller market and would rather cut production and maintain prices than cut prices and maintain production.
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post #63 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Solo4114 View Post

Not quite. You're making some initial assumptions, such as a finite supply of units in the first place. I agree that if there are only 1000 Kuro Elites in the world, and 4000 interested buyers (up from 1000 last year), you've got problems. But you're forgetting some issues of scale on the manufacturing end.

Good point. I meant the retailers rather than the manufacturers. Every time an item becomes "hot" the price goes up due to the-now-and-here demand. This is true of scalping tickets, water and blankets before a hurricane, cars, etc. Long term, the extra demand may cause the TV companies to jack up the volume of the next year's models. Other than this explanation, your points are well made.

On a personal note, I just don't see any motivation in extolling the virtues of what I own other than a short-term gratification of getting others to agree with me if, as a result of my compelling presentation, others will follow and buy the same thing. The net result is that now many have the same set and my standing relative to the rest is now lowered. It is one thing to own a 500SL as one of two or three in the village. It is another to live a village where half the population has them. Can you imaging how difficult it is to live in Beverly Hills? A forum where they discuss cars does not deal with the advantages of having AC because everybody, even those on food stamps, has one.
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post #64 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 11:21 AM
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Well, yeah, but that's if you view your standing as a member of an exclusive club as all that important. Me I'd just be happy to have a nice TV. But I get what you're saying. I think there's more to extolling the virtues of this or that product that you own besides "Look, I'm special." I mean, maybe I genuinely want to share the positive experience I have with other folks because I want them to enjoy it too. So in that case it's less of "Look what I have and you don't" and more about "Join our club! It's awesome in here and you'd have so much fun!"

But regardless, for the time being I can't afford to be in the Kuro Elite club, so for me, most of that discussion is purely academic.
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post #65 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 11:57 AM
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Plasma newbie here...ready to pull the trigger on the Panny 850.

But first a few questions:
How does the 850 handle sidebars on 4:3 material?
Is there a risk of IR or do today's plasmas handle that without stretching?
And what about black bars top and bottom on 2:35?

I know LCD doesn't have these potential issues, but I can't justify the price of the XBR8.

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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post #66 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Plasma newbie here...ready to pull the trigger on the Panny 850.

But first a few questions:
How does the 850 handle sidebars on 4:3 material?
Is there a risk of IR or do today's plasmas handle that without stretching?
And what about black bars top and bottom on 2:35?

You'll have a choice of black or gray sidebars...or stretch it out to fullscreen. As far as the top/bottom bars on 2:35....you can't control the color but you can also stretch to fullscreen. IR is just a normal part of plasma technology that will lessen or go away altogether once the screen has about 6 months of viewing time on it. Actual permanent burn-in shouldn't really be a concern these days...especially on the 1080p Panasonic panels. Just use a good mix of fullscreen HD and sidebar/top and bottom bar for the first few hundred hours and you'll be fine.

"The quickest way to get over your fear of plasma is to actually own *one"- joemama127

*or 3 :)
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post #67 of 79 Old 02-02-2009, 01:48 PM
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^Thank you, sir....now to pull that trigger.

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post #68 of 79 Old 02-03-2009, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

I have no problem with that. It's their ethics - or lack thereof, that many of them seem to have, that I often have a problem with.

I sometimes think that the only thing they actually spend time teaching them is how to BS their way to a sale.

Especially BB's salespeople. They are by far the worst, most dishonest bunch I've ever encountered.

Wow, do you mind sharing what happened??

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post #69 of 79 Old 02-03-2009, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by maxdog03 View Post

Being a good salesman also means knowing the products you are selling and being able to educate and inform your customers. You're confusing an order taker with a professional salesman. Go to a high end audio video store and compare the difference between their salesmen and those at BB and CC. I realize there's likely a large difference between payscale also but BB and CC are basically order takers, not salesmen and like in any field of work their are good ones and their are bad ones with everything inbetween.

To be fair, there is a learning curve with any job. Even those "professional salesmen" you set apart in your post at one point in their professional lives knew nothing about the products or services they sell.

If you catch a new employee (as eager, intelligent, or passionate as any) on day one of his/her job selling electronics, you're likely to get a mixed-bag of accuracy. Come back, and speak to that same employee after a year selling and you'll see a much more accurate source of information.

The difference is turnover. It's terribly high in most of retail, which includes big-box stores. The problem is that management is constantly training new talent, because they're having to replace the guy that just graduated college and is going on to a career in criminal justice.

So, given that, a lot of buyers who find good talent in a given store tend to want to only deal with them in the future. That's why they ask "is X in today? No? I'll wait til he's' back".

Can you blame them? No.

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post #70 of 79 Old 02-03-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SystemShock2 View Post

I like Pioneer too. I hope they survive.

They will.

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post #71 of 79 Old 02-03-2009, 10:50 AM
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One minor point on the notion of "A good salesman helps his customers." That's true up to a point, but a REALLY good salesman helps his customers decide to buy from him. That's the point of the job, after all. BUT part of being good at that job is figuring out what people need/want and getting them routed accordingly.

So, if I walk into a local HT store, and I say "I want a Kuro Elite 151FD, but I only want to pay $3500 for it", a GOOD salesman will be able to talk me into buying, say, a 6020FD or a Panny 850 or whatever, AND have me walking out feeling happy rather than as if I'm settling. A good salesman will be able to convey to me that, for my needs, I don't actually need to hold out for the Elite (which he won't sell me at my price point), and can and should simply buy today so that my money goes into his pocket. On top of that, a good salesman will be able to communicate all this to me in a way that leaves me convinced I made the right choice to part with my cash and take the "second choice" set -- happily. But he's also got to recognize that after we've established that neither of us can come to an agreement on price on the 151FD.

Still, that's more than just saying "Oh, dude, this TV ROCKS! It's great. AND it has 120Hz! Awesome, right? Too expensive? Oh, bummer. Well, catch ya later!" It's also less than "Let me spend the next 2 hours finding out your needs, educating you, and not making a sale. I'm here for YOU, after all."
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post #72 of 79 Old 02-03-2009, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Solo4114 View Post

BUT part of being good at that job is figuring out what people need/want and getting them routed accordingly.

So, if I walk into a local HT store, and I say "I want a Kuro Elite 151FD, but I only want to pay $3500 for it", a GOOD salesman will be able to talk me into buying, say, a 6020FD or a Panny 850 or whatever, AND have me walking out feeling happy rather than as if I'm settling. A good salesman will be able to convey to me that, for my needs, I don't actually need to hold out for the Elite (which he won't sell me at my price point), and can and should simply buy today so that my money goes into his pocket. On top of that, a good salesman will be able to communicate all this to me in a way that leaves me convinced I made the right choice to part with my cash and take the "second choice" set -- happily. But he's also got to recognize that after we've established that neither of us can come to an agreement on price on the 151FD.

Still, more than just saying "Oh, dude, this TV ROCKS! It's great. AND it has 120Hz! Awesome, right? Too expensive? Oh, bummer. Well, catch ya later!" It's also less than "Let me spend the next 2 hours finding out your needs, educating you, and not making a sale. I'm here for YOU, after all."

So are you saying that a good salesman can make people believe what he wants whether its true or not?

I agree that the salesman you describe is a good salesman for the company and for his own bankaccount,
But its certainly not a good seller for the customer.
But I guess all that matters is that they get the money. Thats what its all about.
I just feel bad for that guy who wanted the elite and was made to believe that what he wanted was a non-elite.

Example:
A customer walks into CC and says to a salesman, "I have done alot of research and have learned that the Kuro displays the best possible picture, and I want one.

So the salesman tells him that CC doesn't sell pioneer and convinces the customer that the Samsung 650 (that they have on sale and a huge inventory they need to move of) is a better TV and sells him the 650.

He lies his face off, and tells the customer that the pioneer will get burn-in and that the picture is bad.

The customer is not very knowledgable, on this matter, and believes the Salesman knows what he is talking about.
Is this a "good salesman"????

Like I said, For himself, his employer, and his bank account he sure is.

But Imo, he is a bad salesman. He just lied to a customer right in thier face for a buck.

But this is somehow acceptable today because he is "making the Sale".

IMO, what people need to realize is that thier are many great salesmen out there who are completely honest and do the right thing. and thier bank accounts are in better shape because of it.
They have repeat customers and referrals left and right from satisfied customers.
Plus he can sleep better at night, which is always a plus.
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post #73 of 79 Old 02-03-2009, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

Wow, do you mind sharing what happened??

Well, for example, have you ever gone in a BB and asked them about OTA HD? 9 times out of 10 they will try to tell you that you can't get HD any other way than through Comcast or Direct TV (or whatever providers they happen to be pushing at the time).
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post #74 of 79 Old 02-04-2009, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Well, for example, have you ever gone in a BB and asked them about OTA HD? 9 times out of 10 they will try to tell you that you can't get HD any other way than through Comcast or Direct TV (or whatever providers they happen to be pushing at the time).

Why would one go to BB and ask about OTA HD other than to harrass the help? Why would you do it repeatedly to know what you would get 9 of 10 times? Slow learner? Or just not much to do? You can DIY a decent OTA antenna in the time it takes to go ask a BB nerd and be watching great TV.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

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post #75 of 79 Old 02-04-2009, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by chadmak09 View Post

So are you saying that a good salesman can make people believe what he wants whether its true or not?

I agree that the salesman you describe is a good salesman for the company and for his own bankaccount,
But its certainly not a good seller for the customer.
But I guess all that matters is that they get the money. Thats what its all about.
I just feel bad for that guy who wanted the elite and was made to believe that what he wanted was a non-elite.

Example:
A customer walks into CC and says to a salesman, "I have done alot of research and have learned that the Kuro displays the best possible picture, and I want one.

So the salesman tells him that CC doesn't sell pioneer and convinces the customer that the Samsung 650 (that they have on sale and a huge inventory they need to move of) is a better TV and sells him the 650.

He lies his face off, and tells the customer that the pioneer will get burn-in and that the picture is bad.

The customer is not very knowledgable, on this matter, and believes the Salesman knows what he is talking about.
Is this a "good salesman"????

You're kind of putting the rabbit in the hat here. I was thinking of a scenario more along the following lines:

Customer walks into HT store (not CC or BB or whatever) and says "So, I've done my homework, and I want a 151FD. I'll give you $3500 for it." (Although he's willing to go up to $4K.)

The salesman explains that he really can't move lower than $5K on the price and sticks to his guns. Now, at this point the buyer is inclined to walk out...except he really wanted a TV today. The salesman says "Have you taken a look at the Panny 850s?" and proceeds to walk the customer through the Panny's features, pros and cons vs. the Elite, and the like.

All that is based on the salesman (A) understanding his own products, (B) accurately reading the customer's interest, and (C) being able to communicate information to the customer that makes it more likely that the salesman will get a sale AND that the customer is happy in the end.

That's a far cry from flat-out lying to the customer and saying "Oh, the Panny is superior AND it does your dishes too!" or whathaveyou.

However, for the sake of argument, if we take your scenario and the informed customer who went in wanting an Elite actually decided that the 650 IS better FOR THEIR NEEDS AND BUDGET, then where's the problem? If the customer's happy in the end, what's it matter?

Regardless, my main point here is that the salesman's job is to sell first and foremost, but you can do that successfully without BSing customers, without saying "Take it or leave it" and while trying to get an understanding of what it is the customer really wants. In the end, it's always the customer's choice to buy or not, but the salesman can help direct that process and get them oriented towards figuring out what it is they actually want/need/can afford.

In my scenario with the Elite vs. Panny 850, the customer still has a choice. Maybe they say "You know what? You're right. This whole Elite thing is great, but it's really just not worth it for me, considering the differences. The mere fact that it's the best doesn't mean I should shell out the cash for it if I need a set now. I'll take the Panny." Alternatively, they could say "Nah. I still want the Elite. I'll be back in a few months when the price drops. See ya then!" and that's that.

Quote:


Like I said, For himself, his employer, and his bank account he sure is.

But Imo, he is a bad salesman. He just lied to a customer right in thier face for a buck.

But this is somehow acceptable today because he is "making the Sale".

It's not acceptable to lie to a customer. I also think that salespeople who do that end up doing themselves a disservice. Eventually word will get around that they BS customers, don't know what they're talking about, and then people will refer to them the way they do any college kid killing time at a "big box" store who's stuck in the TV dept. and really doesn't care. But that's not a good salesman in my view. you don't lie to the customer, you try to understand their needs and offer them attractive options based on that.

Quote:


IMO, what people need to realize is that thier are many great salesmen out there who are completely honest and do the right thing. and thier bank accounts are in better shape because of it.
They have repeat customers and referrals left and right from satisfied customers.
Plus he can sleep better at night, which is always a plus.

I agree wholeheartedly. I want to make clear that a good salesman doesn't lie. They just can read their customers well, know the pros and cons of their stock, and can effectively orient customers towards making a decision that hopefully leads to a sale AND a happy customer.
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post #76 of 79 Old 02-04-2009, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo4114 View Post

It's not acceptable to lie to I want to make clear that a good salesman doesn't lie. They just can read their customers well, know the pros and cons of their stock, and can effectively orient customers towards making a decision that hopefully leads to a sale AND a happy customer.

Good point. But I want to add that nobody likes to be told what to buy also? You can show him what you like but let the customer decide what he wants. Sales are about trust.

I don't know about you but what bothers more than anything here on the AVS is when someone tries to tell you what you should buy.

These are just my opinions.
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post #77 of 79 Old 02-04-2009, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Well, for example, have you ever gone in a BB and asked them about OTA HD? 9 times out of 10 they will try to tell you that you can't get HD any other way than through Comcast or Direct TV (or whatever providers they happen to be pushing at the time).

I've never had that happen to me in a BB. In fact, my store is pretty much sold out of OTA antennas because of Feb 17th.

Do you remember whether or not the person who told you that actually worked in HT? Or were they simply coming from the appliance department trying to help the HT department during busy hours? That may make a difference as to the answer you get.

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post #78 of 79 Old 02-04-2009, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

Good point. But I want to add that nobody likes to be told what to buy also? You can show him what you like but let the customer decide what he wants. Sales are about trust.

I don't know about you but what bothers more than anything here on the AVS is when someone tries to tell you what you should buy.

Oh I agree. I'm not saying take the approach of "Oh you don't want that. You really should think about XYZ." I'm talking more about "I want this for $ABC." "Well, I really can't go that low, but can I ask you why you want that one?" "I've heard it's the best. I want the best." "Well, it's definitely a fantastic TV, but maybe I can show you some similar models in your price range." "No, I want the one I said before." "You might change your mind if I show you what these other models can do. Sure you don't want me to at least give you a quick demo?"

At that point, if the customer's willing to take a look, show 'em the other models and maybe you make a sale. If the customer says "No way, I want what I want," well, you weren't gonna make a sale anyway, but at least you tried.

To me, there's a fine line between being a pushy, obnoxious know-it-all salesman and with being someone who's actually trying to find the customer a product they like. Obviously your goal is to sell widgets or whatever, but there's no reason that you can't make the customer happy while doing that.

I've had experiences with salespeople who obviously wanted to make a sale, but were very interested in making me happy as a customer (not by BSing me, but by orienting me when I wasn't 100% sure of what I wanted). I've also had the experience of idiot salespeople who didn't even bother to find out what I'm looking for really, and were more interested in routing me to whatever their chosen item was in a really ham-fisted fashion. They didn't make the sale, by the way.
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post #79 of 79 Old 02-04-2009, 01:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Why would one go to BB and ask about OTA HD other than to harrass the help? Why would you do it repeatedly to know what you would get 9 of 10 times? Slow learner? Or just not much to do? You can DIY a decent OTA antenna in the time it takes to go ask a BB nerd and be watching great TV.

most likely because that's a very logical question a customer may ask. Not everyone is a videophile or follows it as closely as those in this forum. The majority know very little about TV's and how you get certain types of broadcasts so a salesman for these stores "should" know and "should" answer them correctly and discuss the alternatives to help educate te consumer into the right choice for them.
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