Poll Plasma vs LCD - Page 4 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: what do you prefer for a main TV Plasma or LCD?
LCD (I own(ed) BOTH LCD and Plasma) 0 0%
Plasma (I own(ed) BOTH LCD and Plasma) 0 0%
LCD (ONLY have owned LCD) 0 0%
Plasma (ONLY have owned Plasma) 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

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post #91 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcband View Post

... but plasma lighting issues with ABL have been. Before anyone gets there panties in a bunch its just one mans opinion.

Oldband, don't get mellow on me! ABL is a fact. Totally unacceptable. It is so off the chart unacceptable that I wouldn't buy an LCD with any kind of auto dimming unless I could it turn it off. I want constant brightness as I set it, not some marketing genius as is the case with some LCDs or a hardware designer who is trying to prevent his company's plamas from bursting into flames.

At least the autodimming in the LCDs is there to make the PQ better. The ABL is a technology defect.
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post #92 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 06:00 AM
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Having owned both and being a very critical viewer that prefers local dimming LCD (but by no means a plasma hater), this "issue" of ABL is unknown to me except in these threads. Is this a problem with only cheap plasmas? There are a few issues that aficionados of one tech or the other like to exagerrate, and this seems like one of them.
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post #93 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 06:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pw5599 View Post

Yep, doing flooring. Or rather, done flooring. New carpet in da livingroom to please the bare toes and the sound system. It looks, feels, sounds great

Carpet is out, design wise, presently in my neck of the wood. Except for commercial one, nobody stock carpet anymore here except for the type you put on stairway.

I'm going the maple plank way. Nice color, hardwood. The sub low frequency will be felt all the way to my office
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post #94 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:07 AM
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Yeah we removed all carpet except the livingroom, I need to have some soft floor in the house to absorb some of that hard floor sound. I love it and the carpet people round here are very busy. Trends come and go, I could care less, I do what pleases me since I'm not selling anytime soon. As for sound, it's a fact that proper acoustics require a mix of hard and soft surfaces. Carpet on the floor is an excellent way to arrive at that perfect sound environment. If it's all hard surfaces the sound tends to be harsh.

I enjoy good audio too much to not have a good acoustical room. Now if the wife insisted on hard floor, then I'd have a problem
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post #95 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geister View Post

Having owned both and being a very critical viewer that prefers local dimming LCD (but by no means a plasma hater), this "issue" of ABL is unknown to me except in these threads. Is this a problem with only cheap plasmas? There are a few issues that aficionados of one tech or the other like to exagerrate, and this seems like one of them.

ABL?
It's a non issue to me. I can sometimes tell, very vaguely but it's so subtle I dont notice it and I call myself a critical viewer. If anyone is considering plasma it's a thing to look for and if it displeases you, it's not for you.

In the 3 weeks I've been a plasma owner I cannot find any issue that would even come close to making me trade it for a LCD. In fact I find myself comparing my LCD and Plasma more and more. And more and more, I'm liking the plasma even though the LCD is damn good!

It's all opinion people, never take someone's opinion as a personal attack on your opinion.
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post #96 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:21 AM
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I first noticed ABL several years ago on a Panasonic 50 inch plasma while watching Court TV: I mention the program because it is most noticeable on program material that is relatively static

Once you notice it, it is easy to spot going forward and I think every plasma has some type of ABL circuit
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post #97 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Both Tech's have their Pros and Cons

LCD's got its brightness

near invulnerability to IR (i say near because some models do have IR but never burn in)

accuracy in colors and an image displayed the sharpest and cleanest way possible (most current TV's employ low level blurring techniques that you can usually defeat but that will disable pretty much all processing options along with it) this is what makes them viable as computer monitors

and with decent 120/240hz models the option to make almost any source look like it was recorded on a video camera if you prefer that style of viewing TV and movies (highly subjective thing to end users people either love it or hate it)

power consumption

Plasma's got

good to great blacks and dark detail all the time from every angle as long as a room is not super well lit

never changing viewing angles

best motion resolution of all current displays under any and all circumstances (it does not matter what your source frame rate is it looks good with motion)

good color accuracy and saturation, some say more natural looking than LCD but honestly this comes down to battles between specific model's rather than the Tech it self.

acceptable input lag on all models for gaming (5-30ms max)

LCD's low points are

Viewing angles can vary from very bad (must be in a window of +/-15 degrees yes many sold today are still this bad) to average +/- 30 degrees to good at +/- 60 degrees but no matter what the image will always change at off angles on an LCD no matter how good it is and this is most often seen with black and dark images on the screen (back light bleed shows through more at off angles typically and on some bad models blacks turn blue or purple colored)

contrast ratio's also shift with viewing angles how much once again depends on the model.

model's that do not have low level blurring techniques that attempt to make images look more natural and smooth look worse with lower quality and lower resolution content than plasma (yes you shiny Samsung/sony or whatever is often actually blurring the image displayed to make it look better to your eyes)

black levels can be anywhere from terrible to as good and better than some plasma models but only when viewed in that TV's sweet spot.

motion resolution without the use of MEMC/motion enhancers is very bad to the human eye due mostly to sample and hold blur but also due to pixel level blur which varies greatly on various LCD's. I just saw one of the new Samsung C650's at Fry's today playing an animated movie with AMP turned on and i saw visible smearing on it with dark images so don't tell me that pixel blur is no longer a problem with LCD's it most definitely is. it was an S panel by the way

Input lag ranges from anywhere to great to downright terrible for gamers with most of the better quality TV's on the market picture wise performing worse in this area due to how much image processing they must do to make it look so good to the viewer therefor introducing massive amounts of video delay (10-120ms input lag across all the LCD's I've seen tested)

Plasma's lows are

not bright enough for outdoor/outdoor like lit rooms, blacks look terrible in well lit rooms because you can see the PDP's pixel layer because plasma uses no light polarizing filters like LCD does (it does not need them)

Temp IR and possibility of perm burn in (not unlike CRT's and CRT R/F Projection but it is a little bit more rapid than both)

poor static image quality at close range making them useless for close range monitors + the white flicker would also deter this use some as well along with IR/burn in


everything is subjective of course to the end user, some people put one thing about how their TV performs over another and that determines what they like the most. some other people on here mostly like to fight for their display's cause because they've spent so much money on it they don't want to admit the flaws their display may or may not have and that is really just the human thing to do


the way i see it today with the state of current TV models if your buying a TV on a budget and your room is not lit up like its outdoors most of the time then plasma easily offers the best bang for your buck and its a clear winner and no brainer to buy one over a low to mid level LCD TV in most cases

if you got the cash to burn on an ultra high end display things get much more convoluted and both tech's can provide a display with excellent picture quality and at that point unless once again lighting or viewing angles is of concern, it comes down to if your the type that likes the look of motion enhancement or the more natural look of motion esp with movies on plasma's

I would like to ad size,plasma starts at 42 inch,thats a real handicap,the majority(70-90%) of the people prefer a 20-40 inch tv.

The famous first 100 hours(plasma)is a turn-off for a lot of people.

The flashing,flashlighting,sony people told me all lcd's 40 inch and above have these kind of problems.

LCd clouding.
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post #98 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

The famous first 100 hours(plasma)is a turn-off for a lot of people.

I thoroughly enjoyed the 1st 100 hours with mine. That was during the winter Olympics. Quite the turn on.
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post #99 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

I would like to ad size,plasma starts at 42 inch,thats a real handicap,the majority(70-90%) of the people prefer a 20-40 inch tv.

The famous first 100 hours(plasma)is a turn-off for a lot of people.

The flashing,flashlighting,sony people told me all lcd's 40 inch and above have these kind of problems.

LCd clouding.

yeah i forgot to mention clouding and flashlighting which BTW effects more than just Sony models, Samsungs often have the same problem and some Toshbia model's have it as well

its a product of using VA LCD Panels in these TV's they produce deep blacks but any small amount of pressure on the screen or thickness variation of the screen (large LCD's) creates flashlighting and clouding respectively


I also did leave out ABL for the plasma group but this is largely a non issue to most people, I've personally seen it happen on our Plasma but it usually only happens with mostly static screens like a commercial with a white background and in my experience its not all that distracting because i rarely see it happen with normal viewing

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #100 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 10:15 AM
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I think ABL is more like a personal taste: either you dislike it or you don't care. It is similar to image retention. Somebody does not feel it is a big deal: if you have some IR, just run the scrolling function or watch full screen TV for some time and the IR will go. For others (like me), I hate to see any type of image retention, even it is temporary, and I don't like the idea of babysitting my TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geister View Post

Having owned both and being a very critical viewer that prefers local dimming LCD (but by no means a plasma hater), this "issue" of ABL is unknown to me except in these threads. Is this a problem with only cheap plasmas? There are a few issues that aficionados of one tech or the other like to exagerrate, and this seems like one of them.

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post #101 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by arthurking View Post

I think ABL is more like a personal taste: either you dislike it or you don't care. It is similar to image retention. Somebody does not feel it is a big deal: if you have some IR, just run the scrolling function or watch full screen TV for some time and the IR will go. For others (like me), I hate to see any type of image retention, even it is temporary, and I don't like the idea of babysitting my TV.

ABL's equivalent would be an automatic light dimmer with its own algorithm you don't select or control. That algorithm would dim lights when you are looking at a white sheet on your bed. If the sheet is dark, the dimmer turns the light up. That dimmer wouldn't last 5 minutes in my house because my eyes are able to adjust just fine and I don't need any "assistance" from a lousy piece of equipment that would kill itself but for the ABL.

ABL is worse than off-center loss of PQ for this simple reason: I can eliminate the latter by sitting within 30 degress. There is nothing I can do to eliminate ABL. Oops - sorry - yes I can and I did by buying LCDs.
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post #102 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 02:16 PM
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You can avoid ABL by turning the contrast down to a reasonable level. I have contrast set so my set produces 35fL and I never see ABL. It is bright enough during the day, and once twilight starts it is almost too bright.
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post #103 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 02:47 PM
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there's landslides, then there's what's going on in this poll. From any reasonable perspective, the choice for top picture quality is clear. What's more, even if we accept that many feel that LCDs are superior for these rooms with disco balls hanging from the ceiling, the margin is still gargantuan.

Let the dolts suffer with their glossy screens and ABL!

James

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Tech (responding to laughter): "I'm sorry sir, did I miss something?"

Me: "Yeah, a case of Diet Mountain Dew walking across my living room."

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post #104 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 03:20 PM
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This poll confirms one of my observations on this forum: people who support plasmas are usually much more avid and active than people who support LCDs, although in reality LCD TV owners are much more than Plasma TV owners.
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post #105 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

This poll, like mine before, proves that the plasma camp is grossly overrepresented here at AVS.

In the real world where normal people congragate the LCDs outsell plasmas 3 to 1 in the 40 and up category so please don't start me with the computer monitors. This translates into a 24 to 1 overreprentation factor.


I agree, but don't most HT folk prize accurate color over resolution. This would explain this. Plasma colors are better. LCDs are catching up, but still no dice here. I personally go for resolution and the extra detail you get because I game alot.
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post #106 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurking View Post

This poll confirms one of my observations on this forum: people who support plasmas are usually much more avid and active than people who support LCDs, although in reality LCD TV owners are much more than Plasma TV owners.

My point exactly. The disparity between the plasma-LCD ratios here and out there is just off the chart. I have yet to read an explanation why without the plasma followers insulting the other group. Maybe the OP will attempt to do it in this thread.

There is also something suspicious here. If had the best car in the world I would be spending all available time driving it rather than posting glowing reviews and arguing with others. When do the plasma guys fine time to actually watch TV? I know what the majority of LCD owners do: they just happily enjoy their sets and don't give a you-know-what what others think about all the shortcomings of their inferior sets.
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post #107 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khakimon View Post

I agree, but don't most HT folk prize accurate color over resolution. This would explain this. Plasma colors are better. LCDs are catching up, but still no dice here. I personally go for resolution and the extra detail you get because I game alot.

That's news to my eyes. One thing that stands out in TV stores is how both types show human flesh. If anyone in my family had the kind of red face like you see on a plasma I would be calling 911.
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post #108 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 05:51 PM
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Well, let's be reasonable, how a TV is set up in the store doesn't have much bearing on its actual quality. Might as well just have a look at the cars on a lot and base your decision on which one catches your eye without ever giving it a test drive. It's an established fact that the highest blacks+color fidelity currently available is from the higher end plasmas. Doesn't mean that LCDs can't come very close, but they are not the first in class for blacks+color fidelity. I don't mind that, my set isn't even all that expensive and it is quite close, with excellent resolution and detail. And low power consumption!

Why is it always an argumentative tone about this? Are we going to meet on some grand battlefield one day and throw our TVs at eachother, last group standing wins? Because if that's the case, we need to band together against the mighty RPTV owners, those things weigh a ton and could do some serious damage! We'll all be killed if we don't abandon this tragic dispute! Divided we fall!

(there isn't a rolleyes smiley big enough for the eternal LCD vs Plasma bashing arguments, seriously, relax and discussion is much more fruitful...)
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post #109 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 06:00 PM
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I read somewhere that they set the AIDS upon us because people dun said bad things about the LCD. People 'round these parts r all 'bout good wholesome, LCD ways o' livin' - I don't understand why them plasma-lov'rs gotta come 'round here stirrin' up all this trouble and what-not.

I just can't in my right mind abide by any plasma-lov'rs, just goes against the natural order of thangs in the world and such - they'z best just keep their sinful, communist ways to themselves and let us live in LCD peace.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #110 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Agreed View Post

Well, let's be reasonable

I nominate for joke of the year in the Flat Panel Forum

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #111 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Agreed View Post

It's an established fact that the highest blacks+color fidelity currently available is from the higher end plasmas. Doesn't mean that LCDs can't come very close, but they are not the first in class for blacks+color fidelity.

Really? From C-Net:

Samsung UN55B8500 (1st place, street prices: 3k)

The good: Deeper black levels than any HDTV available aside from Pioneer Kuro; solid shadow detail; reduced blooming compared with other local dimming LED-based LCDs; accurate, highly saturated color; excellent video processing with adjustable dejudder; numerous picture adjustments; extensive interactive features including Yahoo widgets; beautiful styling with 1.6-inch deep panel; extremely energy efficient.

The bad: Expensive; poor off-angle viewing; some blooming effects; benefits of 240Hz difficult to discern; glossy screen reflects ambient light.

Panasonic Viera TC-P54Z1 (3rd place, street prices: 4k)

The good: Superb black-level performance with excellent shadow detail; relatively accurate color in Custom mode after adjustment; solid color saturation; properly handles 1080p/24 sources without flicker; improved bright-room picture quality; very slim panel design; wireless connection between components and TV works well; VieraCast provides access to select Internet services; plenty of connectivity with four HDMI and one PC input.

The bad: Extremely expensive; less accurate primary and secondary colors in non-THX modes; minor video processing issues; somewhat limited picture controls; uses more power than comparable TVs.
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post #112 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:46 PM
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Less accurate colors in modes that aren't intended to have accurate color isn't exactly a mark against the set. You just stopped bolding too soon to grasp the reviewer's sentiment

Why don't they list the UN55B8500's Dynamic mode with Dynamic Contrast maxed having inaccurate colors as a mark against it? That's the same deal, of course the TV is going to have better colors in a mode calibrated for color accuracy, that's tautological.

Also I was specifically thinking of the Kuro when I said that Plasmas have the best black+color fidelity around, which as you probably will note, the 1st place review mentions as a caveat. But they're not making them anymore, so there you go.

I voted LCD and I still think you're being needlessly abrasive about this.
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post #113 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

That's news to my eyes. One thing that stands out in TV stores is how both types show human flesh. If anyone in my family had the kind of red face like you see on a plasma I would be calling 911.

store mode TV's be it LCD or Plasma it does not matter display skin tones in extremely inaccurate ways due to the vivid picture mode setting.

simply put they are set up to jump out and scream buy me to the average person looking for the TV that they "think" looks the best to them

what the average person "thinks" looks best to them has time and time again been shown to be completely opposite of what an accurate and natural picture looks like, colors are always overblown and over saturated, brightness is cranked to its maximum and shadow detail is non existent in these settings.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #114 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:55 PM
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The C-Net reviewer says Samsung UN55B8500 is the best TV made today mainly because of the blacks and color.

You say: "Doesn't mean that LCDs can't come very close, but they are not the first in class for blacks+color" fidelity.

Do you see a conflict here?
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post #115 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

That's news to my eyes. One thing that stands out in TV stores is how both types show human flesh. If anyone in my family had the kind of red face like you see on a plasma I would be calling 911.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agreed View Post

Well, let's be reasonable, how a TV is set up in the store doesn't have much bearing on its actual quality. Might as well just have a look at the cars on a lot and base your decision on which one catches your eye without ever giving it a test drive. It's an established fact that the highest blacks+color fidelity currently available is from the higher end plasmas. Doesn't mean that LCDs can't come very close, but they are not the first in class for blacks+color fidelity. I don't mind that, my set isn't even all that expensive and it is quite close, with excellent resolution and detail. And low power consumption!

Why is it always an argumentative tone about this? Are we going to meet on some grand battlefield one day and throw our TVs at eachother, last group standing wins? Because if that's the case, we need to band together against the mighty RPTV owners, those things weigh a ton and could do some serious damage! We'll all be killed if we don't abandon this tragic dispute! Divided we fall!

(there isn't a rolleyes smiley big enough for the eternal LCD vs Plasma bashing arguments, seriously, relax and discussion is much more fruitful...)

haha i think the RPTV guys will have a hard time throwing their Tv's

i would be more afraid of the Plasma guy's because they could actually pick them up and throw them and the front screen layer on plasma's is annealed glass that will break into large shards like plate glass and LCD's are more like Laminated glass and cannot come apart they just crack

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #116 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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ramazur

I Don't want to start up a superficial fight with you over the two tech or anything but answer honestly here what TV's do you and have you owned before?

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #117 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

I read somewhere that they set the AIDS upon us because people dun said bad things about the LCD. People 'round these parts r all 'bout good wholesome, LCD ways o' livin' - etc....etc.

That's kinda silly but good.
It dont need to be a war fellow flat screen lovers. At least it isnt for me, I own and love both and take each of their shortcomings in stride. I'll defend either. It took me awhile to let go of the ol CRT but in these months that have passed the dust grows thicker on the CRT. Perhaps a garage tv it will be. On that note, being a CRT lover.....you know which matches it best.

We'll all win when something better comes along and personally I have to believe that given the strides LCD is taking lately that it will win out. I can look forward to a tv that's light, easy on power and that has as good a PQ as the current plasmas. I'll give up a few $$ a month to the power bill and wait it out while I enjoy.

Altho....in the classic war of technologies VHS never did catch up to the performance of Beta but VHS was chosen the winner by consumers. The wonders of marketing are simply amazing.
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post #118 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pw5599 View Post

That's kinda silly but good.
It dont need to be a war fellow flat screen lovers. At least it isnt for me, I own and love both and take each of their shortcomings in stride. I'll defend either. It took me awhile to let go of the ol CRT but in these months that have passed the dust grows thicker on the CRT. Perhaps a garage tv it will be. On that note, being a CRT lover.....you know which matches it best.

We'll all win when something better comes along and personally I have to believe that given the strides LCD is taking lately that it will win out. I can look forward to a tv that's light, easy on power and that has as good a PQ as the current plasmas. I'll give up a few $$ a month to the power bill and wait it out while I enjoy.

Altho....in the classic war of technologies VHS never did catch up to the performance of Beta but VHS was chosen the winner by consumers. The wonders of marketing are simply amazing.

exactly my thoughts on the subject

although VHS did survive to be the winner because of more backing by studios as well as the porn industry two things that will never factor into display tech directly.

If you're a gamer or interested in using an LCD TV as a primary monitor take a look at my thread on Input Lag
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post #119 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ramazur View Post

This poll, like mine before, proves that the plasma camp is grossly overrepresented here at AVS.

In the real world where normal people congragate the LCDs outsell plasmas 3 to 1 in the 40 and up category so please don't start me with the computer monitors. This translates into a 24 to 1 overreprentation factor.

You fail at logic.


And your dumb comparisons between super high end LCD and the one over-priced plasma is dumb.

If you do not know Z1 is a very rare TV and nothing special compared to the lower end Plasmas and has a bunch of expensive frills. It uses the same panel as a S1. Which at 50 inches can be had for 1200 dollars. That does not mean it is the same color performance, but it will have the same black levels.

Compare a 40 inch lcd to a 42S1 or a 50g10 to a 50 inch comparatively priced LCD.



But overall is a different story. Look at all the other price/size levels.

LCD has come a long way, they cut the prices for their super high end or have them become mid-range and I would have looked more into them. You may need to step back from your LCD love and actually try and make some un-biased and intelligent comparisons in good conditions.
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post #120 of 420 Old 03-11-2010, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by pw5599 View Post

That's kinda silly but good.

Yes, and purposefully so

Irregardless of my personal leanings (after experience with both technologies, mind you), the quality of debate here long ago degraded to "Now you see why LCD will always triumph, because plasma is dumb," aided by the usual suspects. The level of ridiculousness achieved repeatedly by our extra-special LCD zealot has been especially entertaining. I don't know whether to believe that he's another forum member in disguise, having some good fun by being completely obnoxious or that his priapism over LCD is real. Either way, he may do well to take a dose of his "go enjoy it, it's just a TV" advice rather than hanging around to constantly throw spears at plasma owners who he accuses of hanging around to constantly throw spears at LCD owners.

We now return to our regularly scheduled buffoonery.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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