Black level measurements of recent LCDs and Plasmas....ENJOY! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker View Post

Those comments were made prior to CNET reviewing the 8500's from Samsung and LG. They are both darker than the XBR8, so first of all those comments are outdated, and more importantly they only hold relevance for full-black screens.

the Sammy 8500 and LG measured exactly the same as a XBR8 so no they are NOT darker too bad the excessive blooming is mentioned in every 8500 review to actually consider it a superior monitor and .001 in 2008 is still .001 in 2010........anyway I would expect a Samsung fan boy to have his own conclusions
but the following measurements are from Ultimate AV mag
Peak white level

* Full screen: 35.0fL
* 100 IRE window: 34.4fL

Black level: 0.000fL
Peak contrast ratio: N/A
Overscan

* 480i/p: 2.5% top/bottom, 3.5% sides
* 720p: 2.5%
* 1080i/p: 0%

Horizontal bandwidth at 1080i

* HDMI/DVI: 37.1MHz
* Component: 37.1MHz
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post #92 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 03:07 PM
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You should include the post-rise g20/25 black level in the list. Didn't D-Nice measure that?
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post #93 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangeo View Post

You should include the post-rise g20/25 black level in the list. Didn't D-Nice measure that?

I'm not sure that anyone has confirmed that there even IS a rise on the G2x. There's just the "insider" comments that the 2010s will "still have it but different".
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post #94 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 04:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffs386 View Post

........anyway i would expect a samsung fan boy to have his own conclusions

lol.
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post #95 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangeo View Post

You should include the post-rise g20/25 black level in the list. Didn't D-Nice measure that?

All the Panny's need their post rise numbers listed.

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post #96 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 07:19 PM
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Would anyone happen to have a black level measurement from an older Sony KDL-S3000 by chance?
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post #97 of 209 Old 05-26-2010, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

All the Panny's need their post rise numbers listed.

Probably not the best thing, unless the measurement is qualified as coming from the same set with the same tester, the same equipment, and under the same test conditions. I also wouldn't agree with applying some standard multiplier to it either. There is already one thread with all of that talk and data. The OP can do what he wants of course, but if he's looking to build some sort of reference it seems better to NOT pollute it.
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post #98 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 11:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffs386 View Post

the Sammy 8500 and LG measured exactly the same as a XBR8 so no they are NOT darker too bad the excessive blooming is mentioned in every 8500 review to actually consider it a superior monitor and .001 in 2008 is still .001 in 2010........anyway I would expect a Samsung fan boy to have his own conclusions
but the following measurements are from Ultimate AV mag
Peak white level

* Full screen: 35.0fL
* 100 IRE window: 34.4fL

Black level: 0.000fL
Peak contrast ratio: N/A
Overscan

* 480i/p: 2.5% top/bottom, 3.5% sides
* 720p: 2.5%
* 1080i/p: 0%

Horizontal bandwidth at 1080i

* HDMI/DVI: 37.1MHz
* Component: 37.1MHz

All of this jabbering of yours is irrelevant. Who cares if all these LED's measure 0.000 ftL or 0.001 ftL on a full-black screen? What matters is judging the blacks with real content, and I can assure you they are not all equal when you watch low-APL scenes. They do not all have the same depth to the black bars. CNET has reviewed all three, the XBR8, the B8500 and the LE8500, and they said the B8500 had the deepest blacks of any LCD they had ever tested--so that in fact bests the XBR8. Then when they later reviewed the LE8500 they said that it was about the same as the B8500, but actually slightly edged it out in a few instances. So that means the LE8500 is even slighty darker than the B8500.

So that leaves the XBR8 in 3rd place, at BEST.
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post #99 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 04:43 PM
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Ive had my 65s1 since 12/09 and it measured 0.009 fl and I checked it yesterday and it was still 0.009 done with a chroma 5
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post #100 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arfster View Post


2) ANSI contrast. Far more demanding, it tests the TV's ability to produce deep blacks while bright stuff is also on screen, with a full screen test pattern of large white and black squares. For the G20 above, the whites might drop a little, say to 37, but the blacks will get considerably lighter, to maybe 0.022, thus an ANSI ratio of 37/0.022 = 1681:1. The Samsung plasmas I saw from last year did worse on this test (1000:1ish), the 2010 LGs a bit better (2000:1 on the pk550). Note these are all 50" models btw, the 58/63 ones tend to have better blacks.

See this confuses me. I have a Samsung B650 (plasma) and complete dark scenes/almost completely dark look illuminated/greyish and I lose a lot of shadow detail, but with colours and bright whites surrounding black images, the black levels look near inky. Black bars in movies with a completely white screen are the darkest my blacks look.
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post #101 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1080pee View Post

See this confuses me. I have a Samsung B650 (plasma) and complete dark scenes/almost completely dark look illuminated/greyish and I lose a lot of shadow detail, but with colours and bright whites surrounding black images, the black levels look near inky. Black bars in movies with a completely white screen are the darkest my blacks look.

When you are in a dark environment and you are presented with bright light, your eyes need to adjust (let less light in). Your perception of the dark elements changes and its harder to tell how dark they are. They just appear darker.

This is a function of human vision, not your TV.
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post #102 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

When you are in a dark environment and you are presented with bright light, your eyes need to adjust (let less light in). Your perception of the dark elements changes and its harder to tell how dark they are. They just appear darker.

This is a function of human vision, not your TV.

Actually I knew that, but at best they seem the same to me. Factoring in your eyes adjusting, and the BLs seem best with bright images around it. Compared to say...a CRT with lens flare removing shadow detail while dark scenes containing the most detail, my plasma is the opposite of that. Im not a techy by any stretch but those are my observations.
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post #103 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 06:56 PM
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Just a question. Wouldn't any plasma, kuros included, benefit from from backlighting. Seems to me that any plasma that does not have absolute black could benefit from backlighting.

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #104 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 08:02 PM
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what do u mean by backlighting? If you are referring to a CCFL or LED backlight then that would only worsen the black levels. That would be one more light source the tv would have to block from being exposed during dark scenes. The only thing that a backlight would benefit on the plasmas, if it were possible to implement, is a higher brightness level, but in-home the plasmas are plenty bright so essentially a backlight would hurt more than it would help. Probably why it does not exist in plasmas!

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post #105 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

All the Panny's need their post rise numbers listed.

What are those measurements, exactly?
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post #106 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maygit View Post

what do u mean by backlighting? If you are referring to a CCFL or LED backlight then that would only worsen the black levels. That would be one more light source the tv would have to block from being exposed during dark scenes. The only thing that a backlight would benefit on the plasmas, if it were possible to implement, is a higher brightness level, but in-home the plasmas are plenty bright so essentially a backlight would hurt more than it would help. Probably why it does not exist in plasmas!

My bad. I meant ambient lighting behind the tv. Wouldn't that benefit any tv that does not have absolute black?

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #107 of 209 Old 05-27-2010, 08:48 PM
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ah. In that case, yes that would benefit. Ambient light creates an illusion of deeper blacks and makes it easier on our eyes for viewing. Manufacturers do not put this in tv's because it costs more, like phillips ambilight tvs that cost more than basic sony's, and can be closely manipulated with a lamp or two turned on near the tv. A lot of users have gone a step further and purchased their own LED strips and used double tape to stick the lights to the back of their tv's. Most setups make the setup look badass, especially the colored ones, and if you get the ones close to D65k, they will make your tv's black levels appear improved. Most setups ran under $100. I nearly did this with my sxrd but i would only use this to make my setup look baller, other than that all lights must be off when i watch a movie.

Link to that thread:
LED Lights

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post #108 of 209 Old 05-28-2010, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post

My bad. I meant ambient lighting behind the tv. Wouldn't that benefit any tv that does not have absolute black?

Yes. Search "bias lighting".
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post #109 of 209 Old 05-28-2010, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maygit View Post

ah. In that case, yes that would benefit. Ambient light creates an illusion of deeper blacks and makes it easier on our eyes for viewing. Manufacturers do not put this in tv's because it costs more, like phillips ambilight tvs that cost more than basic sony's, and can be closely manipulated with a lamp or two turned on near the tv. A lot of users have gone a step further and purchased their own LED strips and used double tape to stick the lights to the back of their tv's. Most setups make the setup look badass, especially the colored ones, and if you get the ones close to D65k, they will make your tv's black levels appear improved. Most setups ran under $100. I nearly did this with my sxrd but i would only use this to make my setup look baller, other than that all lights must be off when i watch a movie.

Link to that thread:
LED Lights



Did mine for shits and giggles mostly but the principle is the same. Hard to capture on a small point and shoot camera. Not exactly accurate bias lighting but accuracy wasn't my goal, just some funky backlighting, still does the trick.
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post #110 of 209 Old 05-28-2010, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradg1184 View Post

Would anyone happen to have a black level measurement from an older Sony KDL-S3000 by chance?

Hate to bump myself here.. but is there anyone that has this info by chance? Would really like to know what this set does as a reference for myself when deciding what "acceptable" black levels are to my self.
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post #111 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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So I have been trying to find info on the black level rise measurements of both the Panasonic G20/25s and the VT20/25s to no avail.....can someone help me out here since it was noted I should add the black level rise numbers to the Panasonic listings?
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post #112 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 01:00 PM
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50VT20(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.00175fL

This measurement in the OP is incorrect.

They originally said 0.006FL now changed it to 0.009FL which is exactly the measurement I got, I am monitoring 3 of these sets now to see how they change.
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post #113 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 02:35 PM
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What about the new Samsung PS..C8000 3D-Plasma?
Samsung provides an better black, but it seems that nothing really changed compared to the PS..B-Series?

PS: Sorry for my english.
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post #114 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post

50VT20(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.00175fL

This measurement in the OP is incorrect.

They originally said 0.006FL now changed it to 0.009FL which is exactly the measurement I got, I am monitoring 3 of these sets now to see how they change.

so the VT20 is .009, and the 8000c sammy is 0.016. how noticeable of a difference is that? I dont know much about black levels like that sorry. And are these out the box readings or post calibration readings?
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post #115 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post

50VT20(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.00175fL

This measurement in the OP is incorrect.

They originally said 0.006FL now changed it to 0.009FL which is exactly the measurement I got, I am monitoring 3 of these sets now to see how they change.

0.009cd/m2 (=0.0026fl) surely?
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post #116 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 05:27 PM
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hdtvtest reports black level in cd/m2

.009 cd/m2 = .0026fL
.006 cd/m2 = .0018fL
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post #117 of 209 Old 05-29-2010, 10:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumtious View Post

50VT20(hdtvtest.co.uk) 0.00175fL

This measurement in the OP is incorrect.

They originally said 0.006FL now changed it to 0.009FL which is exactly the measurement I got, I am monitoring 3 of these sets now to see how they change.


Their measurements are not in foot-lamberts but in cd/m^2
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post #118 of 209 Old 05-30-2010, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyhead View Post

.......but it seems that nothing really changed compared to the PS..B-Series?

I've been saying that for the past month or so. The C8000 is no different than a B860 with 3D and different cosmetics. It has the same features (besides 3D) black levels and even buzzing problems that the B series did. Having a hard time getting to the bottom of this though. If you mention any of those things in the C6500/C7000/C8000 thread people refuse to even consider the possibility and call you a fanboy.
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post #119 of 209 Old 05-30-2010, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpio_87 View Post

hdtvtest reports black level in cd/m2

.009 cd/m2 = .0026fL
.006 cd/m2 = .0018fL


Noted and corrected
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post #120 of 209 Old 05-30-2010, 02:36 PM
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are these readings post calibration? Or are they out the box readings?
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