4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 106 - AVS Forum
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post #3151 of 3692 Old 05-31-2013, 10:21 PM
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I never believed in the chart either but I wasn't trying to sell something.

Why did many people treat the charts as scientific fact? Because they wanted to sell displays--both 720p and 1080p.

The arguments would be to NOT buy 720p plasma in 57 and 65 inch sizes because you would experience screen door effect--go ahead and buy 1080p in 57 and 65 inch sizes instead.

The other argument would be to buy 720p plasma in 50-inch and below because unless you sat EXTRA CLOSE you wouldn't see the difference of 1080p.

The chart served the SALES FORCE that is ever present at AVS in two ways--it sold 1080p and 720p sets--which was what was being produced at the time--it also promoted LARGER sized sets which also brought in money.

The Video display industry ENDORSED the chart and why? So they could sell TVs!

It is only now that there is a big brush back against the chart. And why is that? Because the chart says that you have to buy RIDICULOUSLY sized displays to reap the benefits of 4K.

What we basically have here is the case of diminished returns.

It reminds me of when they had a wattage race when it came to audio receivers. Eventually Technics came out with a receiver that was putting out 330 watts per channel!!! I guess that was the high water mark of that war like the 1970 Chevelle LS6 with well over 500 actual horsepower was the high water mark of the muscle car wars.

I'm not saying that there is no reason for 4K--you need it for good 3-D. What I'm saying is that the chart in these forums will be slandered infinitum--not because people have problems with the chart but because the video display industry wants to sell 4K as the next big thing and the chart gets in the way of that!

It's always the sales force around here.

And while it is true that there have been 240 vs 480p wars and 720 versus 480p wars and 1080p versus 720p wars and yes you always had people saying that such and such was "Good enough" which is a phrase I absolutely hate--what I object to is people who seem to think that the law of diminishing returns does not exist!

What the sales force wants to sell is 4K LCD that sucks!

Is it possible for there to be great 4K? Yes it is theroretically possible!

Just don't believe the sales force when it poo poos the chart--the sales force will NEVER give out an accurate chart because they know they're full of it! They just want to sell 4K and they'll do anything to keep from admitting that to enjoy 4K you REALLY DO NEED a massive screen!

They'll try to sell 4K smaller than 84 inches which is a FARCE!!!

And they won't make LCD look any better with 4K--it will still have viewing angles that suck!--black levels that suck!(No they won't sell anymore Sharp Elites)--and motion will suck!

And 4K will not stop ANY of that sucking!

And the reason the war over 4K resolution IS different than previous resolution wars is that with 4K we have entered the point of diminishing returns!

Is 4K great for real movie theaters and for MASSIVE screens at home? Of course!

Is it good for regular size TV? NO!!!

Don't believe the sales force! The chart might not be 100% accurate but it LIES LESS than the Sales Force people who want to sell 4K.

One last tactic used to sell 4K is talkijng about 8K--the approach goes like this--we'll get the dumbos to buy 4K because they'll think they're reasonable BY NOT BUYING 8K!!!

I believe that 4K is a great thing and I'd like to have a MASSIVE 4K display--but I'd like for that MASSIVE 4K display to have a picture that would put any Pioneer Kuro in the toilet! I don't want 4K that belongs in the toilet!

Don't believe the sales force! Beware of the coming LCD only wolrdwide domination horror story apocalyptic holocaust! The sales force only wants to divert attention away from that horror story by selling 4K LCD that WILL SUCK!
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post #3152 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

They'll try to sell 4K smaller than 84 inches which is a FARCE!!!
4K at 84" is roughly the same pixel density that I have with 1080p on my current TV. It's not an improvement - it's just bigger. You need 8K at those sizes.
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post #3153 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I never believed in the chart either but I wasn't trying to sell something.

Why did many people treat the charts as scientific fact? Because they wanted to sell displays--both 720p and 1080p.
Most people that have posted that chart have done so to back up an argument that the only benefit for 4K is if you sit closer than normal viewing distance or have a much larger display.
You make up a reality that has no basic in factual life. It is called delusional.
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The Video display industry ENDORSED the chart and why? So they could sell TVs!
No video display industry have ever used that chart in any way. It is a chart made by an amateur and never used for selling points by any manufacturer.
Don't make up a reality that doesn't exist to back up your arguments that have no part in reality.
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It is only now that there is a big brush back against the chart. And why is that? Because the chart says that you have to buy RIDICULOUSLY sized displays to reap the benefits of 4K.
It is me that started the protest against that chart by simply noting where it originated and that it is a theoretical and useless chart.
Quote:
What I'm saying is that the chart in these forums will be slandered infinitum--not because people have problems with the chart but because the video display industry wants to sell 4K as the next big thing and the chart gets in the way of that!
The chart has mostly been used to back up rants against 4K from forum posters like you, not to endorse 4K, and certainly not by the display industry. They don't use charts. And the copyright is owned by a HT amateur if you noticed.
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It's always the sales force around here.
There are no sales force for 4K around here. Don't delude yourself just to back up the separate reality you live in.
Quote:
What the sales force wants to sell is 4K LCD that sucks!
People that own 4K displays, some of them professional image creaters like film makers think they are quite good, even the $1000 Seiki when you calibrate it, so your badly uninformed.
Quote:
Is it possible for there to be great 4K? Yes it is theroretically possible!

Just don't believe the sales force when it poo poos the chart--the sales force will NEVER give out an accurate chart because they know they're full of it! They just want to sell 4K and they'll do anything to keep from admitting that to enjoy 4K you REALLY DO NEED a massive screen!
It is not only theoretical possible to make 4K look terrible, it is factually possible, proven by the existing amount of bad 4K material that already exist.
You can also enjoy the benefit of 4K on small screens, like 4K PC monitors, all to its own use.
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They'll try to sell 4K smaller than 84 inches which is a FARCE!!!
Such statement, which you repeat over and over again just show that you lack the ability to discern what is good image quality and what is not. Hopefully you will learn one day when you have seen 4K and 2K side by side. A light might then turn on in your head. We all cross our fingers that it may happen to you.
But first there must be some good REAL 4K material, it hardly exist yet.
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And the reason the war over 4K resolution IS different than previous resolution wars is that with 4K we have entered the point of diminishing returns!
Possibly for small screens. We will not know will we, before some manufacturers come out with 8K displays smaller than 85" and some very good 8K material.
Until we have passed diminishing returns do we know where the point of diminishing returns are for various display sizes.
Quote:
Is 4K great for real movie theatres and for MASSIVE screens at home? Of course!
For massive screens, even 8K is too little.
Make all displays 500PPI regardless of screen size an we probably would be on the safe side.
Better safe than sorry, too much pixels hurt nobody.
Quote:
Is it good for regular size TV? NO!!!
I'm looking forward to a 30"-40" inch 4K monitor, impatiently waited for such nearly ten years.
Quote:
Don't believe the sales force! The chart might not be 100% accurate but it LIES LESS than the Sales Force people who want to sell 4K.
The nature of sale as a craft is lying and creating illusions and desires and needs you didn't know you had , just like religious preachers. What else is new?
Quote:
One last tactic used to sell 4K is talkijng about 8K--the approach goes like this--we'll get the dumbos to buy 4K because they'll think they're reasonable BY NOT BUYING 8K!!!
UHD as a standard is compiled of two resolutions, 4K and 8K. The natural progression is 8K.
If the force behind 8K had their way, 4K as a format would have been just a substandard.

If logics behind progression in this world had been used, we would have skipped HD when upgrading from SD, and gone straight to 4K because 1080p is really a useless format.
But "sometimes" rolleyes.gif logics and intelligence is not the driving forces on this planet.
4K quality will be what we thought once HD would be. Showed out, HD is a too low resolution to create good image quality.
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I believe that 4K is a great thing and I'd like to have a MASSIVE 4K display--but I'd like for that MASSIVE 4K display to have a picture that would put any Pioneer Kuro in the toilet! I don't want 4K that belongs in the toilet!

Don't believe the sales force! Beware of the coming LCD only wolrdwide domination horror story apocalyptic holocaust! The sales force only wants to divert attention away from that horror story by selling 4K LCD that WILL SUCK!
Try to do this "calculation" in your delusional brain.

The pixels size of a 42" HD/2K/1080p TV is the same as a the pixel size of a 84" UHD-4K TV.

If you have a 42" HD TV and buy a 84" TV. Do do that because you want to sit further away fro you TV or you buy a larger TV because YOU WANT A LARGE TV?

IF you want the image quality of your 42" TV when you buy a 84" TV it has to have 4K resolution. The only extra you gain with 4K (If it is real good quality 4K) is that it is filmed with higher resolution cameras.

Luckily for us that know how to appreciate image quality improvements there are people that can materialise this in actual technological progress and products.
Luckily they are the ones that decide (much to slow for my liking) that technology shall progress and not the average "Joe sixpack".

If the average population decided, we would have had laws against the Steam Train and the Automobile, no movies, no sound in movies, no color movies, no color TV, yes all this improvements have been protested against the same way you do.

And if we had done research some years ago if people was content with their 480p CRT TV, we would have found that there where no desire for improvement. People didn't ask for HD TVs.

The real reason for the sales success of flat panels TVs was not the improved image quality, but because they are flat so the WIVES saw it as an improvement for their home decoration designs, the WAF effect.

Luckily for us there is a power movement in the world that sometimes ignore the lowest common denominator and tries to rather fulfill the highest common goal.
In that way the general population (the ignoramus) is forced into progression rather than their desired stalemate that will lead to regression.
There are many forces that fight tooth and nail against any progression and rather want things the way they are or regress.
Sometimes we who like progression win a battle and sometimes we loose a battle.


The day you stop fighting progression and base your reality on facts and not on made up delusions to bolster your preconceived reality you would have a better life.

This very long reply to your delusional rant is much more than you deserve, but your welcome. Use it wisely. wink.gif
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post #3154 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 04:56 AM
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There are reports emerging all the time that 4K effect is virtually nonexistent @3PH.
It would be a small difference for someone with 20/20 vision and that could be tested. For example a study on visual acuity was done by the NHK. While the study used people with above average vision it showed that the ability to notice a higher resolution with a certain viewing angle was tied to their visual acuity. Also a problem with saying that most reports on the internet support a position is that because of confirmation bias people on both sides of an issue can easily believe that.

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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong. But with 4k, we are going from rec. 709 to rec. 2020, meaning it will have a more natural color.
Hopefully we will see real 4K UHDTVs next year since current 4K TVs use the Rec. 709 color space. At the moment there is no way to even send video to a display using the Rec. 2020 color space since it isn't supported by any of the current consumer video connections (VGA, DVI, DisplayPort 1.2, and HDMI 1.4). I am hoping that both the 4K version of Blu-ray and HDMI 2.0 will support the Rec. 2020 color space.

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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

And while it is true that there have been 240 vs 480p wars and 720 versus 480p wars and 1080p versus 720p wars and yes you always had people saying that such and such was "Good enough" which is a phrase I absolutely hate--what I object to is people who seem to think that the law of diminishing returns does not exist!
HDTV is limited by more than resolution. When HDTV was defined in the late 1980's it was based on the limits of the technology of that time. The people who defined HDTV even decreased the size of the color space, compared to color NTSC, to better match the CRT phosphors used by consumer displays.
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post #3155 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

The chart served the SALES FORCE that is ever present at AVS

(???)
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What I'm saying is that the chart in these forums will be slandered infinitum--not because people have problems with the chart but because the video display industry wants to sell 4K as the next big thing and the chart gets in the way of that!

It's always the sales force around here.

....(rantings snipped)....


At first I thought this was a bit of an act, but I'm seriously beginning to think that allowing you to post here is the most unhealthy thing in the world for you.

WARNING: You have now entered a no @#$%tard zone. Please gather your anti-vaccine propaganda nonsense and slowly back out the way you came in.
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post #3156 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 08:46 AM
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I wonder how much better rec 2020 will look? Maybe we'll see more xvYCC applications such as in camcorders?

Is there any chance that we'll ever see an upgrade in color space when it comes to Blu-rays? That would definitely be nice.

Look I'm not a rah rah cheerleader for 3-D but it seems to me that 4K was meant for 3-D.

I wish we had some optometrists and some opthomologists that could chime in on what would be an ACCURATE chart.

4K is coming--just figure that for the first five years of it it will suck--mainly because if you make it to where it wouldn't suck the price would be astronomical.

Maybe Chinese cheap labor can ameliorate that(I know that sounds terrible).

Will 4K ever be broadcast on planet Earth in the next 100 years?
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post #3157 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

For massive screens, even 8K is too little.
Make all displays 500PPI regardless of screen size an we probably would be on the safe side.
Better safe than sorry, too much pixels hurt nobody.
I'm looking forward to a 30"-40" inch 4K monitor, impatiently waited for such nearly ten years.

Statements about 500PPI without stating what is the viewing scenario tend to be BS. TV or cinema scenario would be total nonsense with 500PPI. For glossy printed material 500 PPI is much too low.
4K monitors are definitely arriving though some teething problems on the electronics side have to be ironed out before full thoroughbred 4K monitors are on the table.

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NanoTech Entertainment (NTEK) Announces Price And Availability Of Its New 4K Ultra High Definition Media Player And Distribution Service
Industry First 4K Ultra High Definition Experience Delivered Over Streaming Wi-Fi Network

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/05/29/5455853/nanotech-entertainment-ntek-announces.html#storylink=cpy

Arcade games and App company that use ROKU player for some of their services, (if they have any customers?) a Company with no money. rolleyes.gif
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post #3159 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Look I'm not a rah rah cheerleader for 3-D but it seems to me that 4K was meant for 3-D.

I've seen 4K at BB/Mag and I have to tell you it's unbelievable. And the passive 3-D of the latest XBR is unbelievably smooth and sharp and and and and and.....

That said: One thing I noticed was that the vertical viewing angle for that particular TV's 4K passive 3D was extremely tight. It was as if they had not compressed the stack of LCD elements + FPR film in the Z direction tight enough to accommodate the new thinness of the scanlines. I was worried about this very thing months ago, but had forgotten entirely about it until I saw it.

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post #3160 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 10:26 AM
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The Sales Force and what is best in video are two different things.

It is a GOOD thing if a person that posts here is unhealthy to the sales force.

For all you people who weren't posting here 6 or 7 years ago there were hundreds of posts attesting to the chart's accuracy and how it was scientific.

Now the chart says that to enjoy 4K you have to have a MASSIVE screen and all of a sudden the chart is USELESS.

But anyone that suggests that there might be a sales force pushing that thought--well they're just DELUSIONAL or mentally unbalanced?

Follow the money!

If I'm crazy then produce an accurate chart that will support LESS THAN MASSIVE sizes where 4K's resolution attributes can be discerned.

Defend that chart!

It's easy to say that someone is crazy--it's a harder thing to produce an accurate chart.

Look this is the AVS forum--you know--SCIENCE.

It's not an impossible thing to QUANTIFY what the human eye is capable of discerning at different distances--at LEAST of static images.

And to be sure when it comes to moving images it is possible that 4K could have an advantage there--can anyone produce the evidence of that?

Look--if you've been here long enough you can tell what the Industry WANTS to sell by the posts. The Video Display Industry WANTS to sell 4K in the future.

Is that a CRAZY statement? Anyone want to dispute that?

I can remember when 1080i came out and they wanted to sell that--I remember there being about the same amount of people who wanted to label 1080i non worshipers as CRAZY. People who said that 720p was better at motion than 1080i were labeled as DELUSIONAL--you know tear down anyone who wasn't with the sales program.

Don't respond to a lot of what they say--label it a rant--if I had a nickel for every time that was done here at AVS I'd be a millionaire.

Bottom line of all of this may be moot--4K is coming--in LCD form--and it will suck!

If I'm the ONLY person left here that will say that it sucks I'll say it!

If it is great and doesn't suck I'll say that, too! But whatever I say it won't be because the sales force is telling me what to say!

Give me the FREEDOM of a non LCD only world or give me death!
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post #3161 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

The Sales Force and what is best in video are two different things.

It is a GOOD thing if a person that posts here is unhealthy to the sales force.

For all you people who weren't posting here 6 or 7 years ago there were hundreds of posts attesting to the chart's accuracy and how it was scientific.

Now the chart says that to enjoy 4K you have to have a MASSIVE screen and all of a sudden the chart is USELESS.

But anyone that suggests that there might be a sales force pushing that thought--well they're just DELUSIONAL or mentally unbalanced?

Follow the money!

If I'm crazy then produce an accurate chart that will support LESS THAN MASSIVE sizes where 4K's resolution attributes can be discerned.

Defend that chart!

It's easy to say that someone is crazy--it's a harder thing to produce an accurate chart.

Look this is the AVS forum--you know--SCIENCE.

It's not an impossible thing to QUANTIFY what the human eye is capable of discerning at different distances--at LEAST of static images.

And to be sure when it comes to moving images it is possible that 4K could have an advantage there--can anyone produce the evidence of that?

Look--if you've been here long enough you can tell what the Industry WANTS to sell by the posts. The Video Display Industry WANTS to sell 4K in the future.

Is that a CRAZY statement? Anyone want to dispute that?

I can remember when 1080i came out and they wanted to sell that--I remember there being about the same amount of people who wanted to label 1080i non worshipers as CRAZY. People who said that 720p was better at motion than 1080i were labeled as DELUSIONAL--you know tear down anyone who wasn't with the sales program.

Don't respond to a lot of what they say--label it a rant--if I had a nickel for every time that was done here at AVS I'd be a millionaire.

Bottom line of all of this may be moot--4K is coming--in LCD form--and it will suck!

If I'm the ONLY person left here that will say that it sucks I'll say it!

If it is great and doesn't suck I'll say that, too! But whatever I say it won't be because the sales force is telling me what to say!

Give me the FREEDOM of a non LCD only world or give me death!

Yep. Great post!! I was at the store listening to a sales guy from Sony pushing 4K and he was full of deceit. If 4K is all of that why does have try to trick the people.
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post #3162 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 03:09 PM
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Yep. Great post!! I was at the store listening to a sales guy from Sony pushing 4K and he was full of deceit. If 4K is all of that why does have try to trick the people.
Are salesguys doing something new they haven't done for the last 10000 years I haven't heard about that is getting you guys so upset? tongue.gif
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post #3163 of 3692 Old 06-01-2013, 04:46 PM
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Give me the FREEDOM of a non LCD only world or give me death!


Well it sounds like either way your posts are going to stop. LOL....

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post #3164 of 3692 Old 06-02-2013, 02:23 PM
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I always knew they were out to get me!

People who support 4K LCD are the same kinds of people who support the bowl system and the BCS!

How can anyone not hate them guys?!

Only support 171 inch non LCD 4K!

I guarantee you that that would look great!
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post #3165 of 3692 Old 06-03-2013, 09:52 AM
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post #3167 of 3692 Old 06-03-2013, 01:42 PM
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The 39-inch monitor is based on a VA (vertical-alignment) panel, compared to the IGZO panel that drives the PQ321.
What I have heard is that the 32" is just a rebadge of the Sharp, and that also has vertical alignment panel, which is a problem with nVidia GPUs that recognize it as two panels and wont do 60Hz even through Display port.
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post #3168 of 3692 Old 06-03-2013, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

What I have heard is that the 32" is just a rebadge of the Sharp, and that also has vertical alignment panel, which is a problem with nVidia GPUs that recognize it as two panels and wont do 60Hz even through Display port.

Vertical Alignment refers to the properties of LCD and has nothing to do with the driving electronics. Likely problem with the 4K electronics is lack of genuine 4K data transmitter/receiver chips. My speculation is that current chips may not be fast enough so two of them have to operate in parallel receiving data from the DisplayPort and this forces splitting it into two separate display spaces. If Asus monitor has indeed this problem it means 4K monitor tech is still in the teething stage and really not worth investment.

4K monitors eyes-on. 32-incher price now $3799, 39-incher said to be coming Q3.

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post #3169 of 3692 Old 06-05-2013, 05:59 AM
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The HDMI 2.0 committee better get their ass in gear or Thunderbolt 2 could be the 4K interface for the PS4 this Christmas.

http://gizmodo.com/thunderbolt-2-will-be-in-products-later-this-year-511396545
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post #3170 of 3692 Old 06-05-2013, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

The HDMI 2.0 committee better get their ass in gear or Thunderbolt 2 could be the 4K interface for the PS4 this Christmas.

http://gizmodo.com/thunderbolt-2-will-be-in-products-later-this-year-511396545
There will not be Thunderbolt in the PS4. (or the Xbox One)

Apple is the only company pushing Thunderbolt, and I just don't see it taking off in a big way. They were too late, and too expensive.

The current HDMI spec supports 4K.
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post #3171 of 3692 Old 06-06-2013, 08:04 AM
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The HDMI 2.0 committee better get their ass in gear or Thunderbolt 2 could be the 4K interface for the PS4 this Christmas.

http://gizmodo.com/thunderbolt-2-will-be-in-products-later-this-year-511396545
There will not be Thunderbolt in the PS4. (or the Xbox One)

Apple is the only company pushing Thunderbolt, and I just don't see it taking off in a big way. They were too late, and too expensive.

The current HDMI spec supports 4K.

Yeah, Thunderbolt seems to have had an awful lot of hoopla in the beginning and now I'm not seeing much of it.

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post #3172 of 3692 Old 06-09-2013, 02:08 PM
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I wonder how much better rec 2020 will look?
From what I have read the difference in color space is very noticeable though it will depend on the specific display. A display that shows 10% more colors than the Rec. 709 color space would be less noticeable than a display that shows 30% more colors.

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Maybe we'll see more xvYCC applications such as in camcorders?

Is there any chance that we'll ever see an upgrade in color space when it comes to Blu-rays? That would definitely be nice.
The "mastered in 4K" Blu-ray discs use xvYCC but the only company really promoting that is Sony. xvYCC is a short term solution with several limitations so I think it will go away once we see displays released that support the Rec. 2020 color space.

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Likely problem with the 4K electronics is lack of genuine 4K data transmitter/receiver chips. My speculation is that current chips may not be fast enough so two of them have to operate in parallel receiving data from the DisplayPort and this forces splitting it into two separate display spaces. If Asus monitor has indeed this problem it means 4K monitor tech is still in the teething stage and really not worth investment.

4K monitors eyes-on. 32-incher price now $3799, 39-incher said to be coming Q3.
The 32" Asus display comes with a single DisplayPort input and only the US model will include two HDMI inputs so it sounds like it won't have that problem.

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The HDMI 2.0 committee better get their ass in gear or Thunderbolt 2 could be the 4K interface for the PS4 this Christmas.

http://gizmodo.com/thunderbolt-2-will-be-in-products-later-this-year-511396545
Apple and Intel designed Thunderbolt and it is very proprietary. The only company that even makes Thunderbolt chips is Intel. As for the PS4 the video connections for it have already been announced.
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post #3173 of 3692 Old 06-09-2013, 07:11 PM
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I wonder how much better rec 2020 will look?
From what I have read the difference in color space is very noticeable though it will depend on the specific display. A display that shows 10% more colors than the Rec. 709 color space would be less noticeable than a display that shows 30% more colors.

............yeah, I'm skeptical of the real end-result impact of all this. The bottom line is the display.

In both color spaces, any particular display will only have what it's always had for full on red, full on blue, and full on green. Even the worst of color models are capable of asking for that, no? And it'll have the ability to have all those at zero like always as well. How all the in between permutations look will be shaped by the color model, but nothing is really being invented, is it?

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post #3174 of 3692 Old 06-09-2013, 11:11 PM
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In both color spaces, any particular display will only have what it's always had for full on red, full on blue, and full on green. Even the worst of color models are capable of asking for that, no? And it'll have the ability to have all those at zero like always as well. How all the in between permutations look will be shaped by the color model, but nothing is really being invented, is it?
What is considered a pure color would depend on the points that are used for red, green, and blue. The color space is expanded with the Rec. 2020 color space which can be seen in the Wikipedia article on UHDTV.
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post #3175 of 3692 Old 06-10-2013, 05:56 AM
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In both color spaces, any particular display will only have what it's always had for full on red, full on blue, and full on green. Even the worst of color models are capable of asking for that, no? And it'll have the ability to have all those at zero like always as well. How all the in between permutations look will be shaped by the color model, but nothing is really being invented, is it?
What is considered a pure color would depend on the points that are used for red, green, and blue. The color space is expanded with the Rec. 2020 color space which can be seen in the Wikipedia article on UHDTV.

No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that if your display goes from 0 to max for each sub, then that's all you're going to get. And each of those hardware limits are reachable already. And *that* is what determines the effective triangle points (the ones you actually see on your couch) in the chromaticity diagram. That's what hits your eyes, and the light that is thrown from display is where the rubber meets the road.

And further, the complaints I hear are about TVs that are hard to calibrate, not that the color model isn't wide enough. 99.99999% of the people seriously couldn't care less: it's the TV that's in the way, not the color model getting to the TV.

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post #3176 of 3692 Old 06-10-2013, 05:14 PM
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No, I understand that. What I'm saying is that if your display goes from 0 to max for each sub, then that's all you're going to get. And each of those hardware limits are reachable already.
While specific displays can vary greatly in general modern displays (DLP, LCD, OLED, and Plasma) have hardware limits that go beyond the Rec. 709 color space so it is the color space that is the limiting factor. For example the Panasonic ZT60 can support 98% of the digital cinema color space.
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post #3177 of 3692 Old 06-10-2013, 05:25 PM
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The difference is that with BT.709 content, you have to constrain the display's gamut to provide an accurate image.
BT.2020 content expands the colorspace so you can actually use your display's full gamut.
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I do believe that with 4K LCD that we will be able to smell the colors!
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post #3179 of 3692 Old 06-11-2013, 06:43 AM
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The difference is that with BT.709 content, you have to constrain the display's gamut to provide an accurate image.
BT.2020 content expands the colorspace so you can actually use your display's full gamut.

I do mostly understand this point, but I suspect we're getting a little too close to the trees to discern what really matters. Also, I don't believe that any color model cannot ask a TV's color-component to go 0 to full blast. Once that happens, then you have the largest triangle possible and all color models should be able to reach within there.

You cannot bulge the triangle outward into a different shape.

Nor can you push any side of the triangle inward.

If corners of that triangle exceed what is "natural", then you don't want to use them anyway.

If corners of that triangle shrink inward, then you really have no say in the matter.

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post #3180 of 3692 Old 06-11-2013, 08:26 AM
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I think you are ignoring or unaware of the fact that most TVs offer a color management system these days.

So when a source asks for "100% red" it displays 100% red in the BT.709 colorspace when the CMS is active.
If the CMS is disabled or set to "wide mode" then 100% red will be as saturated as the display allows for, which makes everything look very unnatural.

With 4K, what's likely to happen is that the source will tell the display whether it is sending BT.2020 content, or BT.709 content or perform the transformation so that it's only outputting BT.2020 and BT.709 content still looks correct.
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