4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 3692 Old 02-12-2012, 05:06 PM
 
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This is not even a question. 4K is a done deal. I'll enjoy it immensely when it's available, and we'll all take it forgranted soon enough.
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post #812 of 3692 Old 02-12-2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio/videoman View Post

This is not even a question. 4K is a done deal. I'll enjoy it immensely when it's available, and we'll all take it forgranted soon enough.

Just like were taking 1080p for granted. ........Like i said in an earlier postwe have become spoiled by HD and are now use to itnothing but a select few wows us anymore.

And no, it's not a done deal. You'll be upscaling your blurays for a long time. We might get a few native 4K blurays but im betting it'll only be from sony for awhile.


Whoever is reading my post and telling other people about it on other forums need to get a life

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post #813 of 3692 Old 02-13-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

And no, it's not a done deal. You'll be upscaling your blurays for a long time. We might get a few native 4K blurays but im betting it'll only be from sony for awhile.

Hmm, launching yet another format plus equipment for playing it? I would rather bet on those 4K youtubes compressed to a couple of mbits for quick download over limited bandwidth. PQ will be amazing for such a bitrate .

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post #814 of 3692 Old 02-13-2012, 06:54 PM
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2160p consumer video will be much easier to deliver with HEVC. Not just due to increased efficency but also due to how HEVC is being developed. That can be seen when you compare the lowest levels in MPEG-4 AVC High Profile and HEVC that can support 1080p30 and 2160p30:

MPEG-4 AVC High Profile

Level 4
1080p30 with a maximum bitrate of 25 Mbps

Level 5.1
2160p30 with a maximum bitrate of 300 Mbps

HEVC

Level 4
1080p30 with a maximum bitrate of 15 Mbps

Level 5
2160p30 with a maximum bitrate of 50 Mbps
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post #815 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 05:05 AM
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^ Richard, my memory is cloudy regarding the current BD spec, but I seem to remember that the maximum bit rate is 48 Mbps including both video and audio. If that is correct, it would seem that HEVC level 5 at 24p could be used with resulting good quality PQ on existing 50 GB BD discs.
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post #816 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

^ Richard, my memory is cloudy regarding the current BD spec, but I seem to remember that the maximum bit rate is 48 Mbps including both video and audio. If that is correct, it would seem that HEVC level 5 at 24p could be used with resulting good quality PQ on existing 50 GB BD discs.

It's about 60 Mbps with 3D. Not sure if that's with/without audio.
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post #817 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I rarely visit the high end section but i found this thread interesting-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393347

Most notably amirm's posts. What do you guys think?

Me and irkuck are probably the only ones in this thread who would agree with him though.

Interesting. Looks like 4K will be going nowhere fast.

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post #818 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 01:29 PM
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"And scaling 1080p content gets you.... softer 1080p content."

That's just demonstrably wrong. Just like scaling 480p to 1080p gets your .. softer 480p? Please.

I'd take his positions with a grain of salt, especially since I don't think any of this is happening quickly. But the first 4K screens are going to come out and they will have uses; I'm sorry this bothers some people.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #819 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 05:16 PM
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Scaling 480p to 1080p looks like garbage imo. Scaling any SD video to HD looks bad. I don't buy these upscailing processors. I don't even watch DVD's on my BD player. I see no point.

I don't think 4K coming is bothering anyone. It's a question of is itreally needed.

Im actually proud of myself for being so critical about 4K. Im not usually like this.

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post #820 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Scaling 480p to 1080p looks like garbage imo. Scaling any SD video to HD looks bad.

And yet, it doesn't. [ shrug] Not sure what TV you have, but when you watcha DVD it is scaled to 1080p if you have a 1920 x 1080 TV. Period.

Quote:


I don't buy these upscailing processors. I don't even watch DVD's on my BD player. I see no point.

If your TV upscales as well as a BluRay player then there is no point. It's still being upscaled.
Quote:


I don't think 4K coming is bothering anyone. It's a question of is itreally needed.

It's clearly bothering some people...
Quote:


Im actually proud of myself for being so critical about 4K. Im not usually like this.

... you seem a bit bothered. You're excited about your criticism of it. You're not -- according to you -- being your normal self.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #821 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Interesting. Looks like 4K will be going nowhere fast.

4k will be going nowhere: FALSE it is going to showrooms 2H12 plausibly. In my books that's pretty "around the corner"

4K will be going nowhere fast: TRUE adoption rate is going to be slow, as usual and much discussed. The indicator is to look at Korean TV set makers

4K content OTOH will take some time but as usual PC will lead with rendered contents.

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Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Having worked for Sony, I can easily explain that . The Electronics and Studio are essentially two independent companies. Little to no synergy exist between the groups.

This much is true. Sony is in any case, no longer a reliable yardstick, that it used to be.
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post #822 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 07:19 PM
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Sooo, let's look at a little history?

Anyone remember when the "firewire 1394 port" was going to be THE digital video interconnect? Mitsubishi and a few other's made TVs and devices that had them. Cable box makers had them. It was going to be THE thing right?

But those early adopters where just to early. In the end, it failed and HDMI has become THE way to connect digital devices together.

A DIGITAL interconnect was obviously coming, but Firewire wasn't the standard to do it.

Let's fast forward to today. It just seems like yesterday that 1080 was THE thing, and now someone wants to replace it. Nevermind that we've had 1080 for 10 years now (which is FOREVER in CE) and everyone thinks 4k won't make it. But just like a Digital interconnect was obvious, so is a higher resolution picture format in a day when screens on PCs and tablets and cellphones move ever higher and higher.

It might be a bit soon for 4k, but it WILL come. CE and program providers WILL bring it to the home, there's no doubt. Time and technology marches on and to think we have reached the end is a bit ignorant and completely short sighted.

Look how quickly Cable and Satellite have put 3D channels up. Why do you suppose they did that when the world of potential viewers was super low? 4k will be the same. Probably not today, or tomorrow, or the next 2 years. But there WILL be a time when someone like HBO or Showtime or STARZ will say "sales are flat, we need something new" and 4k will fill that hole.

One thing that slows 4k down will be the need for a BIG screen, that people can afford. And that's probably 5 years out at least. But this is for mass use, not niche which is what 4k will be for a while (just like 1080 was for it's first 5 years).

I respect Amir and his industry contacts. But nobody he talks to is going to tell him the secret meetings these companies have internally to plan for the future. Only those companies that want to doom themselves to being outdone by the competition stick their heads in the sand and don't talk about potential new income streams.

Who would have guessed Apple would have built the MP3 biz into what it is? Or that Amazon would have done the same with E-books? Someone may do the same with 4k, but probably not anytime soon.

I remember buying my sony HDTV in 2001, and anyone that says you can't enjoy upscaling obviously hasn't really lived with it. Are you seeing new information? Yes. Is it like "real" information? Mostly not. Is the quality improved? Most assuredly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I rarely visit the high end section but i found this thread interesting-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393347

Most notably amirm's post. What do you guys think?

Me and irkuck are probably the only ones in this thread who would agree with him though.


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post #823 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 08:02 PM
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Funny thing is, I spent a lot of pixels explaining why 1394/Firewire was never going to happen -- here at AVS.

"There is no way that 1394 is going to be the standard for transmitting video from set-tops to displays. It is never, ever going to happen." Me in the AVS Archive.

The Firewire fans kept at it and basically I said (a) recording of programs would be solely on DVRs or equivalent -- which proved true and (b) DVI/HDMI would triumph and render Firewire irrelevant and unnecessary -- which it did.

But clearly, all I know is stuff I read. I'm just a Google jockey incapable of intelligent thought.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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Quote:


"And scaling 1080p content gets you.... softer 1080p content."

It depends how you scale it. You could, if you have the right number of pixels (eg. a multiple of the source nr in x and in y) show it exactly the same way (sort of) on a higher res display as a 1080p TV of the same size (maybe brightness would be harder?).

The people making the scalers try to make the picture (eg. diagonal lines) look less blocky and so look better, so that might make it softer. But showing it with big blocky pixels, while it could look sharper, isn't really correct either.
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post #825 of 3692 Old 02-14-2012, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger View Post

^ Richard, my memory is cloudy regarding the current BD spec, but I seem to remember that the maximum bit rate is 48 Mbps including both video and audio. If that is correct, it would seem that HEVC level 5 at 24p could be used with resulting good quality PQ on existing 50 GB BD discs.

At the very least it looks to me like the companies developing HEVC (two of which are Panasonic and Sony) made Level 5 with CE products in mind. I would mention though that based on what I have read the plan is to ratify the HEVC standard in January of 2013.
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post #826 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

And yet, it doesn't. [ shrug] Not sure what TV you have, but when you watcha DVD it is scaled to 1080p if you have a 1920 x 1080 TV. Period.



If your TV upscales as well as a BluRay player then there is no point. It's still being upscaled.

Not sure you get what im saying. I know how upscailing works. I've seen DVD's/SD programs upscaled to 1080p. My conclusion is that i don't like it.

To the point where i don't care how good a scaler is in any equipment i buy. Do people here really watch DVD's still? I mean do you watch the latest release upscaled and feel engrossed in it? Whats the point when we have bluray?

Quote:
It's clearly bothering some people...


... you seem a bit bothered. You're excited about your criticism of it. You're not -- according to you -- being your normal self.

I've only been in this HT hobby since 2007. Im still a noob. I usually believed any claim of something being better (it must be true, why would they lie to us?). But with the little knowledge i gained over the past 4 years about HT, i learned question things. Im sure i don't need to tell you that.

I always thought the manufacture specs on receivers was true. I thought i was getting 100watts into 5 channels like they say. ...........Learned more about how wattage works, and RMS, and found out those specs on AVR's are BS.

See. Proud of myself.

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post #827 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

I've seen DVD's/SD programs upscaled to 1080p. My conclusion is that i don't like it.

Compared to what? Compared to native 1080p? Of course, nobody's disagreeing there! Rogo is saying 480p upscaled to 1080p looks better than vanilla 480p, do you seriously disagree on this point? Because it implies that 1080p upscaled to 4K will look better than vanilla 1080p (or at the very least, certainly no worse), contradicting amirm's statement. But it won't look as good as native 4K, obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

Do people here really watch DVD's still? .... Whats the point when we have bluray?

If every movie you want to watch is available on Blu Ray, then you are a lucky person*. Please have some pity for those less fortunate than yourself. Some of my personal favorite movies are not even available in DVD quality in 2012.

* and maybe, just maybe, you don't watch enough movies.
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post #829 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

Compared to what? Compared to native 1080p? Of course, nobody's disagreeing there! Rogo is saying 480p upscaled to 1080p looks better than vanilla 480p, do you seriously disagree on this point? Because it implies that 1080p upscaled to 4K will look better than vanilla 1080p (or at the very least, certainly no worse), contradicting amirm's statement. But it won't look as good as native 4K, obviously.

Pretty much precisely.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #830 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 11:11 AM
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480P looks great when scaled well on a 1080P display.
480P was sharper than when displayed native on a 480P display (I had one ).
It also looked better on the 1080P display because it was a better display.

A scaler can do many things to achieve a perceived improvement and remain accurate. It may also add processing that makes it inaccurate to the source.
For example, The Radiance has a contrast enhancer. I can turn it on in a side to side display. Most people I show it to would say, that looks great turn it on. However, it crushes some detail in the picture on both ends of the spectrum.

Most displays are replete with wonderful settings that reviewers and calibrators turn off.

I am not saying 4K image enhancement did not look great.
I am saying that it may not be accurate or have side-effects that make it detrimental.
More analysis is required.

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post #831 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

480P looks great when scaled well on a 1080P display.
480P was sharper than when displayed native on a 480P display (I had one ).

480p was aliased (false impression of sharpness) and lacked the sharpness of flat panels when viewed on a CRT. This was not as obvious due to the relatively small size of the displays.
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post #832 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 12:06 PM
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I am not saying 4K image enhancement did not look great.I am saying that it may not be accurate or have side-effects that make it detrimental.
More analysis is required.
- Rich

I would rather say it will not be accurate but it will look better than real. We are entering times of improved reality like you can buy camera which eliminates eyebags, wrinkles and puts make-up - SO's will love this . I just think same can be done with 2K, 4K is not necessary for this.

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post #833 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

I would rather say it will not be accurate but it will look better than real. We are entering times of improved reality like you can buy camera which eliminates eyebags, wrinkles and puts make-up - SO's will love this . I just think same can be done with 2K, 4K is not necessary for this.

Frankly, I do not have enough time to watch the programs on my TiVo.
I need a TV that can watch itself

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post #834 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

Compared to what? Compared to native 1080p? Of course, nobody's disagreeing there! Rogo is saying 480p upscaled to 1080p looks better than vanilla 480p, do you seriously disagree on this point? Because it implies that 1080p upscaled to 4K will look better than vanilla 1080p (or at the very least, certainly no worse), contradicting amirm's statement. But it won't look as good as native 4K, obviously.

**** is still ****. Even Upscaled. It will just look like more ****........... makeup on a pig.

1080p already looks very good. Upscaling to 4K will give little benefit.

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If every movie you want to watch is available on Blu Ray, then you are a lucky person*. Please have some pity for those less fortunate than yourself. Some of my personal favorite movies are not even available in DVD quality in 2012.

* and maybe, just maybe, you don't watch enough movies.

If a movie i want is not available on BD, i wait until it's available. I do not watch DVD's anymore. I can't stress than any further. Maby for comparison purposes when i have the bluray version.

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post #835 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

**** is still ****. Even Upscaled. It will just look like more ****........... makeup on a pig.

So you're saying it looks exactly the same, which still manages to invalidate amirm's comment and support Rogo's claim. At least I'm TRYING to stay on topic...

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1080p already looks very good. Upscaling to 4K will give little benefit.

And amirm said it will look worse, so you're again arguing Rogo's side that it won't look worse. Although it's odd that you allow some wiggle room in your language for 1080p upscaling to look marginally better, and yet it's totally impossible for upscaling to make 480p look even a hair better. At least you don't think it looks worse, which is the whole point.

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If a movie i want is not available on BD, i wait until it's available. I do not watch DVD's anymore. I can't stress than any further. Maby for comparison purposes when i have the bluray version.

Then there are some great (popular, classic, historically important) movies you will probably never see in your lifetime. That's your choice, but not the one I'd make.
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post #836 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saprano View Post

**** is still ****. Even Upscaled. It will just look like more ****........... makeup on a pig.

1080p already looks very good. Upscaling to 4K will give little benefit.

I assume you're saying 4X **** is good enough then.

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If a movie i want is not available on BD, i wait until it's available. I do not watch DVD's anymore. I can't stress than any further. Maby for comparison purposes when i have the bluray version.

Have you ever seen MPEG2 on BD? PQ is more than just the container/ medium.

I'm assuming you don't watch broadcast anymore as well.

I watch theatrical edition of star wars on DVD and LD on my kuro
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post #837 of 3692 Old 02-15-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

I watch theatrical edition of star wars on DVD and LD on my kuro

Not for long you don't

BTW the "bonus disc" DVD has the wrong soundtrack so even it's not "theatrical" in any real sense--you have to go LD or otherwise...
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4k TV and the fleecing of the people coming to a store near you.
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post #839 of 3692 Old 02-16-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Frankly, I do not have enough time to watch the programs on my TiVo.
I need a TV that can watch itself
- Rich

Some next gen TiVo will produce short summaries of programs and send them to your smartfone. With the evaluation of original PQ included .

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post #840 of 3692 Old 02-16-2012, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CatBus View Post

So you're saying it looks exactly the same, which still manages to invalidate amirm's comment and support Rogo's claim. At least I'm TRYING to stay on topic...

NO, im saying it will look like ****.

When you upscale 480p video to HD you end up seeing a ton of garbage that you couldn't see from the native 480p source. So in some ways the native 480p is better as it's free of the garbage upscale processors try to get rid of.

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And amirm said it will look worse, so you're again arguing Rogo's side that it won't look worse. Although it's odd that you allow some wiggle room in your language for 1080p upscaling to look marginally better, and yet it's totally impossible for upscaling to make 480p look even a hair better. At least you don't think it looks worse, which is the whole point.

I think 1080p upscaled to 4K will look ok since 1080p has excellent PQ and we're already dealing with HD resolutions. But i also think doing that will add other problems that weren't there before.


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Then there are some great (popular, classic, historically important) movies you will probably never see in your lifetime. That's your choice, but not the one I'd make.

It's because of bluray i even know they exist.

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