4k by 2k or Quad HD...lots of rumors? thoughts? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 3692 Old 09-21-2011, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Somewhat related, Intel has just recently confirmed 4K (4096x4096) resolution support in the new Ivy Bridge GPUs, and both Apple and Microsoft have implemented high DPI modes in their new operating systems saying that they expect displays to be out there within a year or two now. (MS has gone with 140% and 180% options, Apple has done the easy 200%)

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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

For sure PC will be the first to take up the 4k challenge, especially when their image is rendered. They should be the key in guesstimating 4k adoption, just as they went 1080p far ahead of TVs. But realistically what is the max resolution of LCD monitors and graphics card nowadays "again"?

So which monitor maker are you looking at? Dell? Sammy? LG?? As an IGP it will still need content to decode as it cannot render 4k.

Here's an interesting thread and remark:
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Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

This only talks about decoding and processing, not about output. I do wonder how they want to realize 4k Output.

DVI Dual Link is not fast enough, which means HDMI is out too.
DisplayPort 1.2 will probably work, but the standard isn't well established yet. First certified chips just appeared a month ago or so. But then, we don't have displays with such a resolution anyhow. It would probably need a new sort of Blu-ray spec before support for 4k becomes widespread.

FWIW, the latest NVIDIA decoder chip found on the 520 can also decode 4k movies, but it cannot output it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20973382

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Originally Posted by Frank Benign View Post

In fact, considering the constantly falling price of rendering resources, I bet a lot of old CGI-heavy films will be updated and re-released even at 2K.

Agree... that's my main issue. The studios are still busy with 2k scans and just starting on 4k. Content for 4k will not be so optimistically fast.

In short, though I have no doubt 4k will be the future with mere ~100ppi on large screens and 63ppi on huge 70"; IMHO the infrastructure, bottlenecks, 1080p investment returns, devices are not ready yet in the next 3-5 years. We need patience folks for tech to run its course, like it has done in past 30 years.
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post #212 of 3692 Old 10-20-2011, 09:14 PM
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Toshiba's new high PPI LCD:


http://www.tmdisplay.com/english/new.../2011_1020.htm

I can't wait until we get 4K or 8K screens. A 50" LCD isn't even a tenth the resolution of this display.
Furthermore, I can't wait until we start seeing this class of display used in tablets.
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post #213 of 3692 Old 10-20-2011, 11:23 PM
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shouldnt it be 3840x2160 not 4000x2000 that's always bothered me
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post #214 of 3692 Old 10-29-2011, 12:25 AM
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CMI Shows Off 46-inch 4k2k LCD Panel

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...111027/199920/

My next computer monitor!

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #215 of 3692 Old 10-29-2011, 11:14 AM
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post #216 of 3692 Old 10-29-2011, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

CMI Shows Off 46-inch 4k2k LCD Panel

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...111027/199920/

My next computer monitor!

Very cool!

If they were mass produced I wonder how much they would cost.
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post #217 of 3692 Old 10-30-2011, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Ant99 View Post

Very cool!

If they were mass produced I wonder how much they would cost.

If they were mass produced? Very little more than regular displays. Manufacturing cost difference is probably in the low three digits. That would be multiplied at retail initially of course by a significant amount. Long term, it's not more expensive to make by an appreciable amount.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #218 of 3692 Old 10-30-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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4K2K is definitely coming in the next 2-3 years. The main push is going to be glasses free 3D. While purist may not like 3D, it is going to be pushed hard by studios and manufactures. Studios love it because it eliminates camcorder piracy in the theaters and manufactures love it because they can sell you a new display. The movie studios would eventually generate more profits as consumers yet again replace their blu-ray or dvd movies they already own, to the new 4K format. Plus, it will be the new high end standard for PC gaming. They had 1080p sets before there was even any HD channels. You can already get the 55" Toshiba ZL2 4K set for under 10K street price and those prices will drop fast as mass production picks up. With Vizio, Samsung, and LG crushing the Japaneses on price, they have to differentiate their products. Sharp has done it by going to more profitable large 70-90" displays, at affordable prices. JVC, Toshiba and Mitsubishi may have to do it by going 4K2K.
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post #219 of 3692 Old 10-30-2011, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

CMI Shows Off 46-inch 4k2k LCD Panel

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...111027/199920/

My next computer monitor!

Things may change but I don't recall Chi Mei or Innolux being a technology leader
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post #220 of 3692 Old 10-30-2011, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Things may change but I don't recall Chi Mei or Innolux being a technology leader

The notion that making a 4k x 2k 46" monitor requires some sort of sophisticated technology is laughable. I have a 3-year-old laptop with a 1920 x 1080 17" screen. The pixel density of the 46" would be far less. Not exactly hard to do.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #221 of 3692 Old 10-30-2011, 11:04 PM
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So I'm curious, does this mean that in the near future blu-ray will be replaced by 4k2k discs? I'm sorry if my question is off topic.
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post #222 of 3692 Old 10-30-2011, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The notion that making a 4k x 2k 46" monitor requires some sort of sophisticated technology is laughable. I have a 3-year-old laptop with a 1920 x 1080 17" screen. The pixel density of the 46" would be far less. Not exactly hard to do.

Agree. Just skeptical it will be CMI to lead the charge

As discussed above, I also think PC monitors will start the adoption trend with rendered resolutions.
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post #223 of 3692 Old 10-31-2011, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ant99; View Post

So I'm curious, does this mean that in the near future blu-ray will be replaced by 4k2k discs? I'm sorry if my question is off topic.

Not in the near future.

http://hometheater.about.com/od/home...xplanation.htm
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post #224 of 3692 Old 10-31-2011, 11:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Agree. Just skeptical it will be CMI to lead the charge

As discussed above, I also think PC monitors will start the adoption trend with rendered resolutions.

I think Sharp and Toshiba will be the one pushing 4K sets next year with all the rest to follow in 2013. Toshiba risks the chance of exiting the consumer display market like Mitsubishi, if they do not take the chance. They can not compete with the Chinese and Koreans on price.
Sharp is the company most likely to make it main stream. It will clearly show the advantages of 4K resolution in the large format sizes it is now pushing hard. While there may be little native 4K content for many years, the up-converting of current 1080p with their ICC proccesor will really make then sets stand out. If I had told you just 6 months ago you could get a 70" LED full-array back-lit set for less than $2000 you would have called me crazy. Now you can go to Costco and get their entry level 70LE632U for that. You will see the selling 4K 70" by late 2012/early 2013 for around 3K.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/economy...J2011100413206
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post #225 of 3692 Old 10-31-2011, 12:04 PM
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I doubt there will ever be a 4k x 2k disc standard. Hollywood is idiotic. On the one hand, they really want to sell discs. On the other hand, they want to do everything they can to stop you from having clear ownership of a physical format.

Maybe there'll be a Really Really Blu Ray around decade's end, but I'm not holding my breath. It'll likely be delivered over the net.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #226 of 3692 Old 10-31-2011, 06:09 PM
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I'm not sure if 4k streaming will be viable in the near future as even HD streaming is heavily compressed currently. I do believe physical format still has its place in the near future but what do I know if the rumour of cessation of CD sale next year turn out to be true :P

@sintech I think it is over for Toshiba but it is not a big part of their business anyway. But for Sharp it makes a lot if sense for them to push it as they are the leader of huge TVs, as we've discussed earlier in the thread.
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post #227 of 3692 Old 10-31-2011, 11:59 PM
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4K is bogus thing which unfortunately will be opressed on ignorant consumers like megapixels in digital cameras . The way of reason would be to reduce compression in the current 2K instead of pushing 4K. Let's say 100-200 Mb/s Blue Rays and 20-40 Mb/s HDTV. But this is not as 'hip' as the 4K. So we will see hugely compressed 4K with superprocessors improving PQ.

4K makes really big sense for computer monitors. Eizo starts now selling 4K professional monitors with the 36" diagonal which looks ideal for opulent desktop. But the price of 30+ kilobucks is not encouraging. Perhaps something more reasonable will come next year?

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post #228 of 3692 Old 11-01-2011, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor; View Post

I'm not sure if 4k streaming will be viable in the near future as even HD streaming is heavily compressed currently. I do believe physical format still has its place in the near future but what do I know if the rumour of cessation of CD sale next year turn out to be true :P

Where does this 'cessation of CD sale next year' rumour come from?
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post #229 of 3692 Old 11-01-2011, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Where does this 'cessation of CD sale next year' rumour come from?

Seems unlikely to me, and I haven't heard anything about it.

I can't decide if it would be a good or bad thing. I'm still stuck buying CDs, even though I hate keeping physical media around, because no-one offers CD quality DRM-free music.

Maybe this would actually push companies to offer it though. Ideally iTunes would offer ALAC files and I'd start using it.
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post #230 of 3692 Old 11-01-2011, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

4K is bogus thing which unfortunately will be opressed on ignorant consumers like megapixels in digital cameras . The way of reason would be to reduce compression in the current 2K instead of pushing 4K. Let's say 100-200 Mb/s Blue Rays and 20-40 Mb/s HDTV. But this is not as 'hip' as the 4K. So we will see hugely compressed 4K with superprocessors improving PQ.

4K is done at an entirely different part in the value chain than BluRay is, nevermind where broadcast TV is compressed.

It will produce immediate benefits for consumers in things like maintaining full resolution of broadcasts when multiple screens are shown (thinks like PIP, "game mix" channels, combinations of a video stream and an internet feed, etc.) nevermind the benefits of upconverting on existing broadcasts.

This doesn't even begin to cover the additional real benefit of allowing for passive, full-resolution 3-D broadcasts without high cycle rates.

4K can do real, customer-friendly things today. 13 megapixel cameras don't do anything that 8 megapixels already do. In fact, they are often noisier (and the picture files are larger to no particular benefit). The comparisons between those two are fairly inaccurate.

If TVs went to 4k x 2k and then went to 8k x 4k a few years later, your complaint would have much more merit.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #231 of 3692 Old 11-01-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

4K is bogus thing which unfortunately will be opressed on ignorant consumers like megapixels in digital cameras . The way of reason would be to reduce compression in the current 2K instead of pushing 4K. Let's say 100-200 Mb/s Blue Rays and 20-40 Mb/s HDTV. But this is not as 'hip' as the 4K. So we will see hugely compressed 4K with superprocessors improving PQ.

Could not agree more. Completely unnecessary for 60" and below TV screens with typical viewing distances. It will definitely be a marketing focus though as usual.

IMO the best way to improve picture quality is to improve signal quality.

Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind
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post #232 of 3692 Old 11-01-2011, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Where does this 'cessation of CD sale next year' rumour come from?

http://www.side-line.com/news_commen...=46980_0_2_0_C
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post #233 of 3692 Old 11-01-2011, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Could not agree more. Completely unnecessary for 60" and below TV screens with typical viewing distances. It will definitely be a marketing focus though as usual.

IMO the best way to improve picture quality is to improve signal quality.

Still useful below 60" if you want to use it for full resolution 3-D. Also useful for hybrid TV/monitor-type displays.

But yes, if you are sitting 12 feet from your 46" screen, not very purposeful. I'm more interested in the possibilities of relatively inexpensive 40-50" displays for use with computers (there are already 2560 x 1440 displays at 27"). Also, a 70 or 80" with 4k x 2k has amazing potential as I outline above.

The manufacturing cost differences are going to be minimal when this hits mass production anyway.

It would be nice if we could get better signal quality, but that's such an unrelated problem. It's like complaining about the price of gas when you take your car in for an oil change. Yes, both relate to the car, but that's kind of about it.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #234 of 3692 Old 11-02-2011, 08:39 AM
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@rogo: you can't overcome limits of visual system. Benefits of 4K are noticeable when viewing distance is below 2.5 x pic height. Means either gigantic display or sitting very close. I do not see this TV scenario realizing.

On the other hand computer monitor scenario is ideal for 4K. Eizo just starts selling 4K@36" monitors so there is hope eventually their price will go down and they will become common. Actually 2K computer monitors were very expensive once.

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post #235 of 3692 Old 11-02-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:

There was a guy on another Forum who was also talking about this rumour, that's why i asked.

There must be a minimal quality standard, musicdownloadquality is insufficent and because of that abandoning the CD is not an option. There is also the data storage problem, a (external)hard-disk/non coated CD has to replaced every 5 year because the data will disappear, a coated CD will last at least 25year. Also the music industry will make much bigger losses because its easy to steal music from the internet.

This SIDE-LINE music magazine is from Belgium, a tiny european country. The guy who wrote this article - Benard Van Isacker - quotes his chief editor Bernard Van Isacker
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post #236 of 3692 Old 11-02-2011, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

@rogo: you can't overcome limits of visual system. Benefits of 4K are noticeable when viewing distance is below 2.5 x pic height. Means either gigantic display or sitting very close. I do not see this TV scenario realizing.

What you're saying is true to a point. There are benefits up to twice what you would assume the limits are for resolving a pixel with 20/20 vision.
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post #237 of 3692 Old 11-02-2011, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

@rogo: you can't overcome limits of visual system. Benefits of 4K are noticeable when viewing distance is below 2.5 x pic height. Means either gigantic display or sitting very close. I do not see this TV scenario realizing.

On the other hand computer monitor scenario is ideal for 4K. Eizo just starts selling 4K@36" monitors so there is hope eventually their price will go down and they will become common. Actually 2K computer monitors were very expensive once.

Last I checked 80" displays are already out and gigantic.

Also, my friend has a 40" monitor on his desk. I doubt he's the only person on earth to do this. It'd be far more tempting, I think, if those were 4k resolution. I don't feel "oppressed" by this option.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #238 of 3692 Old 11-03-2011, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Last I checked 80" displays are already out and gigantic..

But biology tells you get advantage from 4K if the sitting distance is below 2.5 pic height (if your have perfect vision). So you have to sit about 8 feet from 80" to soak those pixels.

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Also, my friend has a 40" monitor on his desk. I doubt he's the only person on earth to do this. It'd be far more tempting, I think, if those were 4k resolution. I don't feel "oppressed" by this option.

I said many times that 'oppression' is 4K TV, 4K computer monitor is liberation . I think Eizo 36" size is the best compromise between the 4K res and the viewing. Since 4K computer monitor panels will be now available (LG making) the dream is somebody will make reasonably priced 4K monitor next year which one can buy (reasonably means several grands though).

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post #239 of 3692 Old 11-03-2011, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by irkuck View Post

But biology tells you get advantage from 4K if the sitting distance is below 2.5 pic height (if your have perfect vision). So you have to sit about 8 feet from 80" to soak those pixels.

I don't buy it. I just simply don't believe for a second that if you put me 12 feet from a 4k 80" and a 2k 80" display that I couldn't tell the difference and enjoy the difference. Yes, you'd need good sources (or multiple sources displayed simultaneously) but I just don't believe you'd need to be that close to actually perceive a difference.
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I said many times that 'oppression' is 4K TV, 4K computer monitor is liberation . I think Eizo 36" size is the best compromise between the 4K res and the viewing. Since 4K computer monitor panels will be now available (LG making) the dream is somebody will make reasonably priced 4K monitor next year which one can buy (reasonably means several grands though).

Well, the high-rez 27" screens are way overpriced vs. the 27" 1920 x 1080s, but they are reachable. I'll probably spring for the Apple one next year when it supports USB 3.0. So I'm optimistic that the 36" 4k monitors will get reasonable over the next 2-3 years, even if the first ones won't be.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #240 of 3692 Old 11-03-2011, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I don't buy it. I just simply don't believe for a second that if you put me 12 feet from a 4k 80" and a 2k 80" display that I couldn't tell the difference and enjoy the difference. Yes, you'd need good sources (or multiple sources displayed simultaneously) but I just don't believe you'd need to be that close to actually perceive a difference.


This is not question of beliefs but hard facts which after thorough evaluation have to be admitted even by main promoters of the 4K.

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Well, the high-rez 27" screens are way overpriced vs. the 27" 1920 x 1080s, but they are reachable. I'll probably spring for the Apple one next year when it supports USB 3.0. So I'm optimistic that the 36" 4k monitors will get reasonable over the next 2-3 years, even if the first ones won't be.

Hopefully this happens starting next year, display interface for 4K is the Display Port I think.

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