1080P Broadcasting Ever Going To Happen? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Kind of a newbie question, but I was wondering if the TV Networks have plans and or will ever broadcast in 1080P?

Thanks
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post #2 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 11:14 AM
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Not likely for OTA channels. Now cable and satellite channels likely can.
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post #3 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 01:59 PM
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There's no need for 1080p broadcasting
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post #4 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 02:29 PM
 
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Not Needed!
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post #5 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 02:56 PM
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I beleive Motorola is testing a new cable STB that can receive HDMI 1.4a Packed double 1080p buffers in the same format that is used for output from the 3D Blu-ray players. It will also require new Head End equipment at the local cable providers office. I suspect Cisco is doing the same.
No until the ATSC add support of 3D broadcasts to their spec will it happen for OTA broadcasts since it 1080i/60i is easily deinterlaced to 1080p.
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post #6 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 03:06 PM
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Not to mention 2:2/2:3 can be used to weave the fields to together to restore film based contents back to 1080p.
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post #7 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 03:44 PM
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NHK Japan Broadcasting is developing Ultra High Definition Television (UHDTV) and working on a 22.2 Surround Sound 3D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_H...ion_Television

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=28671

http://broadcastengineering.com/mag/...shes_surround/

Just Google around for NHK Ultra High Definition and 22.2 Surround you will get back so many websites on it.
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post #8 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 04:17 PM
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Umm 22.2 channels? WTF? I am guessing three dimensional speaker alignments? So you get vertical as well as horizontal dispersion.
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post #9 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Not to mention 2:2/2:3 can be used to weave the fields to together to restore film based contents back to 1080p.

This is assuming perfect deinterlacing. I'm not sure 1080i is as infamous as 480i though. Oppo has given up on inverse telecine altogether.

If bandwidth and storage is not an issue we would have been pushing 1080p through the pipes and medium. there's always limitations in the REAL world.
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post #10 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 09:28 PM
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Samsung TVs with VAL processors have excellent 2:2 and 2:3 detection. They can easily restore the progressive information from interlaced sources without any loose. 2011 Panasonic also have cadence detection, but we have yet to test its capability.

PS: 2:2 and 3:2 detection determines if the content needs to be de-interlaced or weaved. If it detests film content (low-motion), then odd and even fields are weaved together (2:2). If it detects video content (high-motion), the missing have to be restored via de-interlacing.

2:2 is harder to detect compared to 2:3, which is why it is rare for TVs to have such feature, but 2:3 is more difficult to process. In either case, it's no longer an issue.
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post #11 of 50 Old 02-28-2011, 09:55 PM
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Yes if it is flagged properly in the source. The problem is the source is not mastered properly and the algo has to guesstimate. The whole chain has to cooperate from encoding to compression and hopefully with a competent processor to decode at the end.

Like I posted, IDEALLY we should have uncompressed lossless 1080p and LPCM but until then we have to understand why these workarounds exist so as to know when they will disappear, as per the OP question.

PS more than half of 2010 TVs globally are equipped with generic MStar processors which I am unsure if they do the job properly. Good thing that Sammy is using more its own LSI for 2011 models
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post #12 of 50 Old 03-01-2011, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Yes if it is flagged properly in the source. The problem is the source is not mastered properly and the algo has to guesstimate. The whole chain has to cooperate from encoding to compression and hopefully with a competent processor to decode at the end.

That's only applies to DVD players. External processors do not rely on flags. Instead they buffer frames to analyze the motion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

PS more than half of 2010 TVs globally are equipped with generic MStar processors which I am unsure if they do the job properly. Good thing that Sammy is using more its own LSI for 2011 models

There are a lot of TV that uses Trident, NEC etc. chips. But MStar is capable of detecting 2:3.


PS: Ideally we wouldn't be using frames to simulate motion
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post #13 of 50 Old 03-01-2011, 08:06 PM
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Buffer frames been around for quite some time in order to deinterlace on the fly, isn't it? So you are saying badly flagged DVDs can now be inverse telecine perfectly since flags are irrelevant now?

I'm not sure how BD does it now... do they assume 24p is film and 50i/60i is video?

Hmm if deinterlacing and inverse telecine is as easy as you say then Oppo must be incompetent to say it is dropping it because it is "unsatisfactory", and IIRC Yves Faroudja said it was "very difficult if not impossible to do it correctly" (see another quote in the article below) And we should probably have 1080i48 instead of 1080p24 for Blu Ray to be consistent with 1080i60/50

Interlaced scanning or video does not mean they can be automatically presumed that it can be weaved back together properly. The frames could be interlaced in capture and and in different time-space.

http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/...editorial.html

"In summary: 1080i has the same vertical resolution as 720p, whilst 1080i has slightly better horizontal resolution."

"It is important to recognise that it is easy to convert a progressive format (e.g. 1080p/50) into an interlaced format (such as 1080i/25), but it is much more difficult to convert an interlaced format into a progressive format."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

There are a lot of TV that uses Trident, NEC etc. chips. But MStar is capable of detecting 2:3.

NEC & Trident are going down and not because they have bad solutions. Just as Mediatek conquered the DVD chipset space, Mstar is conquering the TV VP space with >50% market share in 2010. (Mstar is ex-Mediatek people)

I would assume detecting and processing are different. They could also convert 2D to 3D on the fly supposedly. I know cause I met them last week 3D/deinterlacing is one thing, GOOD 3D/deinterlacing is another. (by that logic I can cook too )If there is no difference Sammy should not bother to get their own LSI to do TV VP.
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post #14 of 50 Old 03-01-2011, 11:23 PM
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In a way 1080p programming exists already. I just watched a NetFlix streaming movie Daybreakers (2009) on my PS3 that was streamed in 1080p60. Yeah that's right, 60fps. But alas they used a 1080p24 source and Telecine to get to 60fps. My 120hz set doubled the 60fps to 120fps complete with the motion judder artifact. I wish thay had simply broadcast at 24fps. They would have saved bandwidth and storage, and I would have been able to interpolate a 1080p image with smooth motion.

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post #15 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 12:56 AM
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I seriously doubt people will agree telecine is considered 60fps. Nor is Netflix considered broadcast?

As of now commercially only 720p60 is considered 60fps.
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post #16 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 02:49 AM
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Yeah, but that was not the thread topic. The NetFlix "broadcast" was in 1080p, not 1080i. The display on my Samsung distinguishes the two. The PS3 is configured to pass the native resolution of the source, and it did. I simply remarked that had it been 1080p24 instead of 1080p24 Telecined to 1080p60, I would have preferred it. The 24fps source was used in the movie's digital intermediate, and this is very common due to the popularity of 35mm film distribution prints.

When you think about it, broadband-delivered movies need not experience the constraints that are present in the ATSC broadcast standard.

The other problem was that the sound was 2-channel PCM, not the 5.1 Dolby Digital available on both the DVD and Blu-Ray. That, too is normal for NetFlix streaming movies.

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post #17 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
Buffer frames been around for quite some time in order to deinterlace on the fly, isn't it? So you are saying badly flagged DVDs can now be inverse telecine perfectly since flags are irrelevant now?
They have been around for a while, but it was simple de-interlacing. 2:3 and 2:2 were once exclusive to external processors, but recent advancements allowed them to be integrated within the on-board LSI. In fact, 2:2 was very recent and only a few can maintain stable lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
I'm not sure how BD does it now... do they assume 24p is film and 50i/60i is video?
That I'm not sure, but it's likely as all BD movies are mastered in 1080p24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
Hmm if deinterlacing and inverse telecine is as easy as you say then Oppo must be incompetent to say it is dropping it because it is "unsatisfactory", and IIRC Yves Faroudja said it was "very difficult if not impossible to do it correctly" (see another quote in the article below) And we should probably have 1080i48 instead of 1080p24 for Blu Ray to be consistent with 1080i60/50
Maybe, because the $30-40 ATI HD5450 can correctly de-interlace the majority of interlaced content. It can even detect bad edit and other errors. IT passed HQV with flying colors. Surprisingly, my C580 with VAL processor has even better de-interlacing algorithm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
Interlaced scanning or video does not mean they can be automatically presumed that it can be weaved back together properly. The frames could be interlaced in capture and and in different time-space.
That's only applies to high-motion content where each field contains information captured in different time, which can't be weaved together as it yields in combing artifact.

Low-motion contents don't have such problem and the fields can be weaved to obtain progressive 25p or 30p. 24p requires additional processing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
http://www.ebu.ch/en/technical/trev/...editorial.html

"In summary: 1080i has the same vertical resolution as 720p, whilst 1080i has slightly better horizontal resolution."

"It is important to recognise that it is easy to convert a progressive format (e.g. 1080p/50) into an interlaced format (such as 1080i/25), but it is much more difficult to convert an interlaced format into a progressive format."
The article is 5 years old and in that time, significant advancements have been made in terms of de-interlacing. ATM, you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference from 1080p60 and 1080i60 (providing 1080i60 is 1920 x 1080) on modern TVs equipped with the latest de-interlacing algorithm.

And thanks to 2:2 and 2:3, progressive content within the interlaced container can be extracted without any loss, which yields 1.5X more detail than 720p24 / 720p30.

It is why in the UK, we broadcast all HD channels in 1080i50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
NEC & Trident are going down and not because they have bad solutions. Just as Mediatek conquered the DVD chipset space, Mstar is conquering the TV VP space with >50% market share in 2010. (Mstar is ex-Mediatek people)
Trident have to improve their yields, but even they are no match for the Samsung processor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
I would assume detecting and processing are different. They could also convert 2D to 3D on the fly supposedly. I know cause I met them last week 3D/deinterlacing is one thing, GOOD 3D/deinterlacing is another. (by that logic I can cook too )If there is no difference Sammy should not bother to get their own LSI to do TV VP.
Samsung's processors are far more advanced. They poured large amount of money into developing the Valencia and Chelsea chip.

They are also the only company to provide 10p gamma and fully functional 3D CMS.

Their 2D to 3D system is also the most advanced as it functions on the pixel level instead of splitting the image into 3 sections.
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post #18 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 03:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post
The article is 5 years old and in that time, significant advancements have been made in terms of de-interlacing. ATM, you'd be hard-pressed to notice the difference from 1080p60 and 1080i60 (providing 1080i60 is 1920 x 1080) on modern TVs equipped with the latest de-interlacing algorithm.

And thanks to 2:2 and 2:3, progressive content within the interlaced container can be extracted without any loss, which yields 1.5X more detail than 720p24 / 720p30.

It is why in the UK, we broadcast all HD channels in 1080i50.
I'm pretty sure u meant 1080p30 and 1080i60? We would see a difference in 60fps

Is it possible that UK (or anywhere else for that matter) doesn't have 1080p25 as standard format? I am assuming you are saying that broadcasts will not be in progessive in the near future because it is redundant and 1080p24 adds little value since modern display can inverse telecine painlessly, though I understand interlacing was an invention due to raster speed constraints of the past with CRT and transmission bandwidth.

P.S> Time to dig out my lousy DVDs and rewatch them?
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post #19 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
I'm pretty sure u meant 1080p30 and 1080i60? We would see a difference in 60fps
If the TV passed the HQV diagonal test, it's extremely difficult to notice.

check out the link below. It is a testament to current de-interlacing algorithms.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...24&postcount=1

ATI's Vector Adaptive, which is will be 5 years old in few months is amazing to say the least and the 2010 Samsung models have even better algorithm. So things can only get better.

If you'd like to test your TV's de-interlacing capability, download the samples above and play it via PS3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
Is it possible that UK (or anywhere else for that matter) doesn't have 1080p25 as standard format? I am assuming you are saying that broadcasts will not be in progessive in the near future because it is redundant and 1080p24 adds little value since modern display can inverse telecine painlessly, though I understand interlacing was an invention due to raster speed constraints of the past with CRT.

P.S> Time to dig out my lousy DVDs and rewatch them?
Interlaced was designed to reduce bandwidth and CRT was perfect delivery system. The two were perfect together.

Even in the digital age, interlacing plays an important role which allows us to boost image quality while conforming to bandwidth restrictions.
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post #20 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 04:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post
Even in the digital age, interlacing plays an important role which allows us to boost image quality while conforming to bandwidth restrictions.
This I agree and have stated as such. Ultimately I think 1080p is the way to go because not only is the deinterlacing VP involved (which you are focusing on) but also the SOURCE. Here's another article primarily saying the source is captured in fields rather than frames. (Newer at 3 years old )

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/techn...concerned.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post
If bandwidth and storage is not an issue we would have been pushing 1080p through the pipes and medium. there's always limitations in the REAL world.
......
Like I posted, IDEALLY we should have uncompressed lossless 1080p and LPCM but until then we have to understand why these workarounds exist so as to know when they will disappear, as per the OP question.
PS Nonetheless will be reading up the deinterlacing thread you posted over this weekend
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post #21 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 04:51 AM
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Source can be captured in frames and fields. But if odd and even contain information of a single complete frame, then there's no need to "guess", which means the fields can be combined to produce progressive image.

It is why interlacing is grate method for broadcasting. Not only it saves bandwidth, but it can also be used to transmit progressive content.
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post #22 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 07:39 AM
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A while ago i stopped watching movies on my HDsatellite receiver,i pefer 1080p24 blurays over 1080i/1080p cable/satellite - commercials,logo's,compression,up-scaling and whatever it is they do to the sourcematerial.No thanks!
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post #23 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 11:20 AM
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Am I wrong to think that MPEG-2 will never be adequate for 1080p ATSC broadcasts, and that unless something more efficient that MPEG-2 can be used or the 6MHz band can be enlarged, it's never gonna happen?
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post #24 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 04:02 PM
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Mpeg2 is not sufficient for HD compression. Just get a Mpeg2 blu ray and you can see what I mean. Even VC-1 is on its way out being less efficient ie bit starved vs AVC ie Mpeg4 though frankly I can't really see the diff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielo TM View Post

Source can be captured in frames and fields. But if odd and even contain information of a single complete frame, then there's no need to "guess", which means the fields can be combined to produce progressive image.

We hope captures are done in frames rather than fields, but fields are captured instead of frames for simple reason: economics. When you have a test video it is likely they were deinterlaced from progressive frames. But that may not be how contents are in the real world. That's my problem with test videos that are sometimes detached from real world. Same issue VT25 win the HD test but am not so sure about their SD capabilities, when many in the real world are still watching SD content.

To me the proof of the pudding is this: if inverse telecine is no longer an issue, then real world commercial DVD inverse telecine should be perfect. I've yet to see any claim on this. Combing and tearing is evident that the processing is not perfected.
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post #25 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 04:34 PM
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Try it on the ATI (HD3XXX and above) card

and make sure pull-down is enabled
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post #26 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 05:01 PM
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That should include the new MacBooks right?

Anyway a rant on inverse telecine on the 2011 panny:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kramer View Post

I don't understand why people aren't making more of a complaint about the lack of legitimate 1080p/24 ability on EVERY FREAKING MODEL other than the VT series.

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post #27 of 50 Old 03-02-2011, 05:19 PM
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post #28 of 50 Old 03-03-2011, 06:50 AM
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AFAIK all HDTVs starting in 2007 were required to accept the ATSC digital resolutions.
1080p/60 is not an ATSC resolution but 1080p/24 and the only common source I know of 1080p/24 is blu-ray disk players. I am not aware of any reaquirement for HDTVs to use inverse telecine to convert any film content in another format such as 1080i/60 to 1080p/24.
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post #29 of 50 Old 03-03-2011, 07:22 AM
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Nope neither is there requirement for TVs to be calibrated REC709

But most HDTV display only progressive, so if source is interlaced, they need to be deinterlaced. How good can TV do the deinterlacing is the issue. Good, however, is not a requirement either

I for one prefer native progressive if there is a choice. Until then we have to make do with 1080i broadcast.
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post #30 of 50 Old 03-03-2011, 08:59 AM
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The time will come that all important broadcasters will use 1080p camera's,it makes no sense when cable and satellite stick with 1080i when that time comes.
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