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post #31 of 46 Old 04-27-2011, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Santi8 View Post

How do you say nicely that this guy has no idea what he's talking about?

How do you say nicely that you are a troll?
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post #32 of 46 Old 04-27-2011, 07:43 PM
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Heres my two cents. I was trying to save a few bucks and get a 720p set to replace my 50 inch 720p set from 2006. I figured the newer set would look better. None of the newer 720p sets looked as good as mine. Screen door effect was much more obvious. What I figured out was the culprit was that the newer sets are 1024 x 720p where as my older set was actually 1366 x 768p. It makes a noticeable difference. Almost all the new 720p plasmas are this way, true 720p sets. Some of the lcd sets are still 768p though. I would get a 1080p plasma, namely the st panasonic. Its worth the upgrade in my opinion. Plus, my 2006 set was more of the top of the line variety back then, so I imagine the processing in these 720p sets nowadays are not concerned with the ultimate in audio video excellence.
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post #33 of 46 Old 04-27-2011, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chadsdsmith View Post

Heres my two cents. I was trying to save a few bucks and get a 720p set to replace my 50 inch 720p set from 2006. I figured the newer set would look better. None of the newer 720p sets looked as good as mine. Screen door effect was much more obvious. What I figured out was the culprit was that the newer sets are 1024 x 720p where as my older set was actually 1366 x 768p. It makes a noticeable difference. Almost all the new 720p plasmas are this way, true 720p sets. Some of the lcd sets are still 768p though. I would get a 1080p plasma, namely the st panasonic. Its worth the upgrade in my opinion. Plus, my 2006 set was more of the top of the line variety back then, so I imagine the processing in these 720p sets nowadays are not concerned with the ultimate in audio video excellence.

Did you read my last post? If not check out my C-Net links. I can't tell you how many times I have posted on this forum that pixel ratios have very little to do with picture quality. If your older set looks better, it may be due to such factors as contrast, grey scaling, saturation and color accuracy. I have never experience a screen door effect on a plasma, so I assume you are referring to an LCD, and to be honest, most of the newer ones don't really suffer from that problem, so I don't think that's what you're seeing:http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...hp/t-6741.html Also, if you're going to compare TV's, try doing it somewhere they have demo rooms with controlled lighting. It's hard enough to judge the actual performance of a TV display that's not calibrated, and in demo mode, but it's even worse under poor fluorescent lighting conditions. Good luck!


http://reviews.cnet.com/tv-buying-gu...in;contentBody


http://reviews.cnet.com/hdtv-resolut...oreResources.1



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post #34 of 46 Old 04-28-2011, 09:42 AM
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Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. None of the things you listed as reasons why my set looked better has anything to do with the screen door affect that I am talking about. I realize its more than pixel count but I guarantee you that I could look at two tvs and tell you which one is 720p and which one is 768p. At least on the 50 inch tvs. Depending on eyesight and viewing distance I agree that there is a point where it won't be noticeable. You will also notice I did mention that processing has a lot to do with it, but lets face it, most current 720p sets nowadays don't have the best processing. Btw, the tv I had was a philips, which anyone will tell (myself included) you was not that great a plasma, the panasonics back then, had better pq. But like I said, just an opinion.
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post #35 of 46 Old 04-28-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by chadsdsmith View Post

Well, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. None of the things you listed as reasons why my set looked better has anything to do with the screen door affect that I am talking about. I realize its more than pixel count but I guarantee you that I could look at two tvs and tell you which one is 720p and which one is 768p. At least on the 50 inch tvs. Depending on eyesight and viewing distance I agree that there is a point where it won't be noticeable. You will also notice I did mention that processing has a lot to do with it, but lets face it, most current 720p sets nowadays don't have the best processing. Btw, the tv I had was a philips, which anyone will tell (myself included) you was not that great a plasma, the panasonics back then, had better pq. But like I said, just an opinion.

All 720 TV's have a moving resolution of 768 pixels. You would know that if you read the articles I posted. Unless you are standing very close (2 ft. or less) to the screen, I think the problem you're describing is something else like false contouring, dithering or host of other problems which are common with most plasmas. Regardless, if any of these sets are calibrated properly they will render a very good picture. Every plasma that was tested by Consumer Reports recently rendered a very good or excellent pq rating and many of them were 720p sets. If you are so convinced that your old Phillips is a good TV, then why not save your money and stick with it.

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post #36 of 46 Old 04-28-2011, 08:04 PM
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I don't mean to make this an argument, but nowhere in that forum post did I see something that says all 720p tvs have a moving resolution of 768p. I mean, if the tv is listed as having 720 lines of vertical resolution, how can it possibly display 768 lines. I am far from a expert on the subject, but I am not convinced of this. Hell, the resolution may not have anything to do with why I didn't think they looked as good, but I do know that they certainly did not look as good.
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post #37 of 46 Old 04-28-2011, 08:10 PM
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And oh, btw, to answer your question about why I didn't just stay with the philips. It looked good but was an unreliable piece of crap and finally out crapped out on me. Quite honestly, I expected that since my philips was such a piece of you know what that the newer 720p sets would have no problem besting mine, they just didn't.
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post #38 of 46 Old 04-28-2011, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadsdsmith View Post

I don't mean to make this an argument, but nowhere in that forum post did I see something that says all 720p tvs have a moving resolution of 768p. I mean, if the tv is listed as having 720 lines of vertical resolution, how can it possibly display 768 lines. I am far from a expert on the subject, but I am not convinced of this. Hell, the resolution may not have anything to do with why I didn't think they looked as good, but I do know that they certainly did not look as good.

There are threads on this forum that discuss the reasoning behind it. I don't find your reply's argumentative but your understanding of some of the technical aspects of these TV's is somewhat elementary. Did you see the C-Net chart? http://reviews.cnet.com/hdtv-resolut...oreResources.1
The point I've been trying to make is that it's very hard to judge a set on display in a retail store for the reasons I posted earlier. I have seen some very good 720p sets by Samsung, LG and Panasonic that probably offer better black level performance, gray scaling and color accuracy then your
Phillips and personally I've never seen any of them, even close up with a screen door effect. If your budget allows you to trade up to a higher end set, then by all means go for it. Hopefully when you get it home and set up, you will be happy with it. Enough said on my part. Cheers!



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post #39 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by chadsdsmith View Post

I don't mean to make this an argument, but nowhere in that forum post did I see something that says all 720p tvs have a moving resolution of 768p. I mean, if the tv is listed as having 720 lines of vertical resolution, how can it possibly display 768 lines.

You're correct, I'm not sure what mailiang is talking about. It is true that so-called "720p" (technically 1280x720) sets over the years have had varying resolutions. For a time, 50" models were actually 1366x768, while 42" sets were frequently 1024x720. It seems lately that the manufacturers have reduced the resolution on their 50" "720p" sets to 1024x720. Whether this is noticeable to you is a different question altogether.

Motion resolution is a whole 'nother topic. Only in the last two years or so did some TVs start scoring perfectly on motion resolution tests, mid to high end plasmas and the very most expensive LCDs.

jeff
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post #40 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 08:49 AM
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You're correct, I'm not sure what mailiang is talking about. It is true that so-called "720p" (technically 1280x720) sets over the years have had varying resolutions. For a time, 50" models were actually 1366x768, while 42" sets were frequently 1024x720. It seems lately that the manufacturers have reduced the resolution on their 50" "720p" sets to 1024x720. Whether this is noticeable to you is a different question altogether.

Motion resolution is a whole 'nother topic. Only in the last two years or so did some TVs start scoring perfectly on motion resolution tests, mid to high end plasmas and the very most expensive LCDs.

jeff


Jeff,
I was referring to the fact that most 720p TV's today have 768 vertical pixels. That's why I included the C-Net chart in my posts:http://reviews.cnet.com/hdtv-resolut...oreResources.1 I don't know for sure why manufactures continue to advertise them as 720 rather then 768p sets, and there are several threads on this forum that have discussed that issue. Many 42'' screens have a native resolution of 1024X768 not 720. And you're right, manufactures, particularly Panasonic and LG, are now using that same resolution on the larger 50'' screens rather then 1366X768, but since the moving resolution among other the factors, is more critical to detail, most people wouldn't see the difference. Also, 1280X720 is currently a broadcast ratio, and is only a display ratio on some smaller screen, entry level LCD's.

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post #41 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Santi8 View Post

How do you say nicely that this guy has no idea what he's talking about?

It's not that difficult...
Santi8, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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post #42 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 11:53 AM
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I just realized I was wrong about the resolution of many of the current 50" plasmas. They are in fact 768p(ast apposed to 720p like I stated) but have 1024 horizontal lines, which means they have a decent amount less resolution than one with 1366 lines such as my old philips. Sorry to misinform, I simply remembered the resolution was, in fact, different but failed to double check exactly what the difference was. My main point is that the newer 720p/768p tvs look worse to my eyes than my philips did. More screen door effect. I attributed this to having less resolution. If that is not the case, so be it. But that doesnt change the fact that they dont look as good, to my eyes. Cnet articles wont change that for me. That is why I went with a 1080p set after first thinking a 720p/768p set would be fine. Therefore, my recomendation is for the original poster to look into a set like the st series plasmas or similar, as they are priced close enough to the lower models to merit the upgrade.
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post #43 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 12:03 PM
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S30 series is the better option if you are on a budget. ST30 is 3d and way more expensive.
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post #44 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 12:18 PM
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Good point. But the st has many more advantages than the s30 above and beyond 3d. Better panel, processing etc. I do understand that a budget is a budget though, so the s30 might be a good option.
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post #45 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 01:56 PM
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I realize that this article about pixel ratios was written a few years ago, but it's still relevant today.


Quote:


Misc.
Ask HD Beat: What's the deal with 1366 x 768?
By Ben Drawbaugh

Reader Rob writes in and asks, "What's the deal with 1366x768? It seems like most of the HDTV's out there in the 32-37" range have those dimensions. How does that translate on a pixel to pixel basis, and why don't they do 1280x720?"

Rob that is a great question and one that has come up many times before. I even asked the Pioneer representative at CES this year the same question. His response was that it was a PC resolution that has been standardized. He was of course talking about XGA which is 1024x768 but it is the same premise. More pixels is better, there is no arguing that, but the question still remains where do the rest of those pixels come from and how can they make a 16x9 display from a 4x3 resolution? The answer is actually pretty simple; it is not a 1:1 pixel mapping and pixels don't have to be square. In fact the Pioneer Elite plasma (arguably the best plasma) has a 1024x768 resolution and rectangular pixels.
I know what you are thinking now; How can it look as good if they are scaling the 1280x720 or 1920x1080 video to a different resolution? (Well that is what you should be thinking.) The answer is surprising or it at least is surprised me. All TVs scale, yes all! The single biggest difference between a TV and a computer monitors is that TVs have overscan. The reason isn't a good one, but that is the way it has always been and that is the way it is now. That means that if you buy a TV with a native resolution of 1280x720 and the TV has ~3% overscan, the circuitry in the TV is throwing away 3% of your pixels and scaling the rest to fit into the 1280x720 pixels on the display. There are some TVs that have the ability to turn this off, they call it "computer" mode others call it a 1:1 pixel map. The problem with theis modes is that TV production folks expect you to have overscan, so they use the outside pixels for things such as Closed Captions or Neilson ratings, it is refereed to in the industry as the vertical blanking interval. It also happens to be how those MovieBeam movies get beamed.

The bottom line is it really doesn't matter how many pixels your TV has as long as it looks good. If you are like me and your have an OCD for these type of things, buy a 1280x720 TV that you know has the ability to produce a 1:1 pixel map and ignore the garbage on the vertical blanking interval. If you are not brave enough to try it on your own, then there are ISF calibrated technicians who can do it for you.


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post #46 of 46 Old 04-29-2011, 06:24 PM
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Yes 1366X768 is a compromise between legacy like overscan, and a middle ground between TV and PC resolution before converging to 1080.

SD is also legacy and hence if you watch SD extensively it is almost always better to get 768p rather than scale up to 1080. Intermediate solutions are always about compromise.
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