Will movies filmed in 48fps require new home theater equipment? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 190 Old 07-28-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

Do you have a link to a document, such as one from a projector manufacturer that says this? Most sites say it's either to reduce flicker or some say it helps with 3D display/motion rendition.


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Jackson and Cameron fully expect HFR to look more like high-definition....It will also lead to brighter 3D movies. In today's 24 fps format, each frame in a 3D film has to be flashed on the screen two or three times, depending on the projection technology. If those flashes are too bright, viewers perceive flicker. But with 48 or 60 fps, you need to flash each frame less often - so the brightness can be higher without producing flicker.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21428636.900-switch-to-highframerate-3d-movies-may-not-be-smooth.html#.UfWLLG2wUwd
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Imagine you look at a shining white wall. Now this wall turns totally black for 1/25th of a second. Would you notice it? You surely would. 1/50th of a second, well maybe harder. 1/100th of a second? Very difficult. Think of your 100Hz TV sets. They are called flickerfree, because at flicker rates of 100 times per second you stop to notice the blackness of the TV screen, though the TV screen isn't shining all the time, but pulsating 100 times per second. Brightness eats darkness.
http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
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The movement for high-frame rate cinema will open up the visual experience and give us the possibility of new creative output, to say nothing of being able to go brighter as well
http://library.creativecow.net/kaufman_debra/High-Frame-Rate-Cinema/1
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post #182 of 190 Old 07-28-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 

Did you misread that list?  According to that list, sometime in 2017 we will have had 5 HFR movies:
Quote:

HFR movie list



Updated list of existing and upcoming high frame rate movies. Any frame rate of 48 fps or higher is considered HFR for the purposes of this list.
2012
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (dir. Peter Jackson)
2013
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug (dir. Peter Jackson) (December 13)
2014
X-Men: Days of Future Past (highly rumored for HFR 3D based on Bryan Singer’s comments) (dir. Bryan Singer) (July 18)
The Hobbit: There and Back Again (dir. Peter Jackson) (December 17)
2016
Avatar 2 (dir. James Cameron) (likely to shoot at 60 fps)
2017
Avatar 3 (dir. James Cameron) (likely to shoot at 60 fps)
2020+:
Battle Angel (possible trilogy) (dir. James Cameron) (likely to shoot at 60 fps)
Unknown release dates:
Animal Farm (dir. Andy Serkis) (currently planned to shoot in 48 fps 3D)

Untitled science fiction project (dir. Douglas Trumbull) (planned to shoot in 120 fps 3D “Hypercinema”)

5 or 8 does it really matter? Its minimal.

Keep in mind that 99% of those movies are made by the two guys who are walking ahead of the troops, Jackson and Cameron. Without Cameron and Jackson no hfr movies..
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post #183 of 190 Old 07-28-2013, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

The projectors for the Hobbit 3D 48 fps were set to double flash each frame instead of triple flash like they would for 24 fps 3D
http://info.christiedigital.com/lp/3d-hfr
That is interesting information and it makes sense since 48 Hz per eye would be a bit low for the refresh rate.

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Jackson says it was shot and presented at 48Hz. There was no double or triple flashing.
Jackson said "48 fps" and as for Christie they have been making movie projectors since 1929.

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Never said those weren't factors, but the Hobbit's look was all about 48fps and the elimination of double / triple flash judder.
T. Schmidt was chief designer for the Hobbit's projection system and says right here how they eliminated "double flashing".
It wasn't about getting rid of double/triple flashing it was about increasing the frame rate. The NHK has done tests with increased frame rates up to 240 fps and the BBC has done tests with increased frame rates up to 300 fps.

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In the end what we have is the director telling us the key to understanding the Hobbit's look is that it was "shot and projected" at 48fps (without double flashing).
The director never said anything against double flashing and frame rate is not the same thing as the refresh rate.

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Originally Posted by borf View Post

We also have the lead projection engineer telling us that this technique "replicates the “real world” more closely than so-called “double flash” techniques".
The explanation he gave in the article for the use of two projectors when showing 3D video was that it was better because it "doubles the effective brightness and can prevent any flashing artifacts for people who cannot tolerate a 50% black flash period in each eye". The explanation was specifically about 3D video.
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post #184 of 190 Old 07-28-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

5 or 8 does it really matter? Its minimal.

Keep in mind that 99% of those movies are made by the two guys who are walking ahead of the troops, Jackson and Cameron. Without Cameron and Jackson no hfr movies..
I'm sure there'll be a lot more than that once it's shown that they're successful, the top directors are using HFR, and there are enough projectors known to be compatible with 48/60 fps.
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post #185 of 190 Old 07-29-2013, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs 
I'm sure there'll be a lot more than that once it's shown that they're successful, the top directors are using HFR, and there are enough projectors known to be compatible with 48/60 fps.
I do not know how one can prove that hfr movies are succesfull, most people will think it's 3D. Anyway, we'll have to wait till long after 2020 before more hfr movies are shown in the cinema's. It might never takeoff.
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post #186 of 190 Old 07-29-2013, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs 
I'm sure there'll be a lot more than that once it's shown that they're successful, the top directors are using HFR, and there are enough projectors known to be compatible with 48/60 fps.
I do not know how one can prove that hfr movies are succesfull, most people will think it's 3D. Anyway, we'll have to wait till long after 2020 before more hfr movies are shown in the cinema's. It might never takeoff.

 

(??) We're talking about the future.  You can't "prove" anything either way by definition.

 

I have faith that the public will start to know the difference.  Particularly when they see something in a theatre and for the first time since SD go home and see something even they can recognize as dramatically inferior.  (New theatre HFR vs. existing home theatre 24, etc.)


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post #187 of 190 Old 07-29-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 

Did you misread that list?  According to that list, sometime in 2017 we will have had 5 HFR movies:
Quote:

HFR movie list



Updated list of existing and upcoming high frame rate movies. Any frame rate of 48 fps or higher is considered HFR for the purposes of this list.
2012
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey (dir. Peter Jackson)
2013
The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug (dir. Peter Jackson) (December 13)
2014
X-Men: Days of Future Past (highly rumored for HFR 3D based on Bryan Singer’s comments) (dir. Bryan Singer) (July 18)
The Hobbit: There and Back Again (dir. Peter Jackson) (December 17)
2016
Avatar 2 (dir. James Cameron) (likely to shoot at 60 fps)
2017
Avatar 3 (dir. James Cameron) (likely to shoot at 60 fps)
2020+:
Battle Angel (possible trilogy) (dir. James Cameron) (likely to shoot at 60 fps)
Unknown release dates:
Animal Farm (dir. Andy Serkis) (currently planned to shoot in 48 fps 3D)

Untitled science fiction project (dir. Douglas Trumbull) (planned to shoot in 120 fps 3D “Hypercinema”)

5 or 8 does it really matter? Its minimal.

 

It matters a tremendous amount because we're potentially (and hopefully) at the start of a curve, not a linear slope.  When talking about changes in the future, especially as relates to technology, things happen quickly, don't spread linearly, and you projecting a count of 5 films to 2020+ is dramatically different from what the chart was projecting 5 films which was to 2017.


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post #188 of 190 Old 07-29-2013, 08:31 AM
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Ang Lee says he's not sure about HFR, but that he did struggle with frame rate in The Life of Pi.

 

He's connecting it to 3D issues in that interview:

 

Quote:
I wonder how much HFR is ahead of its time or people simply don’t like the look. It’s very hard to say. We associate it with “video” looks – which people associate with bad filmmaking. It doesn’t mean that the media itself is not good. It’s very hard to say but making Life of Pi I struggled with frame rate because you don’t want the 3D to be jittery and we’re constantly rocking in the ocean. And sometimes when things go too fast I could not see the eyes – so HFR might be a idea. But sometimes when I find out how people feel about it, I think it’s possible. We’re in the early stages of 3D filmmaking – so we have a lot to learn.

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post #189 of 190 Old 07-29-2013, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 

(??) We're talking about the future.  You can't "prove" anything either way by definition.
The number of hfr movies planned till 2020 - plans and intentions - is proof that there only will be a few hfr movies till then, and all of them are 3D (the intention is that only 3D movies will be shown in hfr) What happens after 2020 one cannot know nevertheless i am pessimistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmg1024 
I have faith that the public will start to know the difference.  Particularly when they see something in a theatre and for the first time since SD go home and see something even they can recognize as dramatically inferior.  (New theatre HFR vs. existing home theatre 24, etc.)
What good is theatre hfr 3D vs. home 24fps 3D when hfr is not gonna be part of the 4K stuff? All it will get you is that more 3D movies will be filmed with hfr (after 2020).
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post #190 of 190 Old 07-29-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

5 or 8 does it really matter? Its minimal.
It is minimal, but it essentially guarantees advancement in projector technology, including 120fps@120Hz.

120fps in theaters means eventually (within a few years), 120fps becoming standardized in HDTV's, and then (within a decade after), finally 120fps native gaming consoles.
Blur Busters is a strong advocate in having 120Hz+ support in displays.

Bring it on, baby!
(I still personally prefer 24fps for the vast majority of my movies, though -- but I'll partake in HFR movies from time to time -- but I am mainly interested in this as part of long-term technological advancement of display support for native 120Hz)

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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