Future of pdp is grimm? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I'm not going to debate Plasma vs LCD, both have their strengths and weaknesses. I like both technologies for what give me, but I would have preferred a new technology over the gimmicks.

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Clouds is the sky are supposed to be white, not dirty white or egg shell. Plasma simply cannot display true whites. When plasma displays try to display whites like that you usually get some buzzing from the display. A display should get as close as possible to real life, which means it should look like or close to what my eyes see.

Kettle meet Pot. Pot meet Kettle.
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post #182 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 05:21 PM
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there hasn't been any major levels of improvement to justify purchasing a new display. so while its great that led/lcds now can produce images as good as the best plasma, it would cost me more than i spent on my kuro to get one at the same size. and i would still have to deal with off angle viewing issues.

right now improvements are very incremental, like a prior poster said, its like crt improvement during the 80-90s, minimal changes with each model release.
so i will wait for the next great thing, as a videophile, there's nothing out there that makes me want to rush out and, again, be an early adopter (anyone interested in my hd dvd player?)

and plasma will be fine as long as it holds its price advantage over lcds

neflixis our nemesis
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post #183 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

In 2011 a display should be able to display real life, as close to what God given eyes see as possible. Not what some lab rat came up with a 100 years ago as compromise.

It's sad that, in 2011 on AVS, members like yourself who have been hanging out for a while have zero idea why white point and gamut standards are important, and how those relate to display fidelity and what we look at on our displays. Your statement above just further belies your ignorance on the subject, as does your failure to understand that these standards are derived to allow accurate reproduction of reality, if that's what a director intends for you to see.

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If clouds are white in real life (and they are) and D65 makes them look egg shell, that we need to look at D65 again.

Again, your statement above only reveals your ignorance on the subject of the human visual system and display standards.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #184 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

In 2011 a display should be able to display real life, as close to what God given eyes see as possible. Not what some lab rat came up with a 100 years ago as compromise.

If clouds are white in real life (and they are) and D65 makes them look egg shell, that we need to look at D65 again.

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Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post

Good point. The "standard" should be as close to real life as feasible for the technology at hand. If D65 isn't as close as it could be, then the standard should be redefined.

Obviously you guys don't understand the concept of reference. Without reference you wouldn't even know you finished a 100m dash That doesn't mean all race has to be 100m in length.

And the SCIENCE behind D65 is voluminous with physics and pragmatic observations involved. Not a singular lab rat smart idea unlike idea like 2:3 pull down.

Like I said you need to start with some basis (where the literature come from) or understanding of the tech you are supporting before arguing. Else there is no end.

PS for the record I had been arguing that yellow pixel is not a bad idea (though somewhat calibration/ VP problematic and perhaps redundant for now) as it could help widen the REC709 gamut. So I am not exactly stuck in a rut but we really need to know what we are talking about.
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post #185 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Auditor55 View Post

I'm not concerned with what the directed intended, the director could be a boob and judging by what I've seen coming out of Hollywood as of late, there appears to a lot of boobs . Furthermore, not all content is movie related.

So? Nevertheless it's D65!
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post #186 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

It's sad that, in 2011 on AVS, members like yourself who have been hanging out for a while have zero idea why white point and gamut standards are important, and how those relate to display fidelity and what we look at on our displays. Your statement above just further belies your ignorance on the subject, as does your failure to understand that these standards are derived to allow accurate reproduction of reality, if that's what a director intends for you to see.

Again, your statement above only reveals your ignorance on the subject of the human visual system and display standards.

The hysterical thing about the lab-rat comment you quoted Hog is that Edison's light bulb temp is the real compromise. And, honestly, the non-American world has already moved on. We're bitching and moaning about CFs and LEDs not having "natural light" when what we mean is "really yellow, incandescent light". Thankfully, the tech wizards can make next-gen lightbulbs in whatever color people want. Unfortunately, non-videophiles continue to look for something that doesn't exist -- except on TV.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #187 of 398 Old 09-07-2011, 10:26 PM
 
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So we're in the dark ages for not wanting to stick to our "old-fashioned" incandescent lights? Actually, if the primary (federal) push is towards fluorescent lighting, fuhgetabout it. They can keep those mercury-laden poison bombs. For the record, I am fine with using other means of lighting aside from these two.

Oh wait, this is OT. :?
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post #188 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 05:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post
So we're in the dark ages for not wanting to stick to our "old-fashioned" incandescent lights? Actually, if the primary (federal) push is towards fluorescent lighting, fuhgetabout it. They can keep those mercury-laden poison bombs. For the record, I am fine with using other means of lighting aside from these two.

Oh wait, this is OT. :?
It is interesting, isn't it? How the topic in a thread can get derailed. I think it was the future of PDP and LCD TVs? It's disappointing that some people here just can't let folks have their own preferences, whether it be how white they like clouds or how black the the blacks should be. The truth is, TV is very much better than 10 or 15 years ago when there weren't so many choices and just very basic calibration controls. Whether PDP or LCD it's all good! TV has gotten way too technical for the average person. At the same time, those few that hanker for technical accuracy also have the options for it. Let each respect and have their own preference without the dogma.
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post #189 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post
It is interesting, isn't it? How the topic in a thread can get derailed. I think it was the future of PDP and LCD TVs? It's disappointing that some people here just can't let folks have their own preferences, whether it be how white they like clouds or how black the the blacks should be. The truth is, TV is very much better than 10 or 15 years ago when there weren't so many choices and just very basic calibration controls. Whether PDP or LCD it's all good! TV has gotten way too technical for the average person. At the same time, those few that hanker for technical accuracy also have the options for it. Let each respect and have their own preference without the dogma.
Dogma? Indeed. Obviously you missed why the white point discussion is completely on topic, so I'll bring you up to speed. Auditor55 started the discussion about reproducing "true whites", and used this flawed premise as part of a larger (but equally shabbily constructed) argument as to why plasma is supposedly inferior to LCD. All of that feeds into his position (despite the annual release of new models and a clear upswing in plasma sales) that the plasma display market is somehow preparing to die. The "impeding death of plasma" - which, if you are familiar with Auditor55's post history here, has apparently been going on for several years now - is exactly what this thread is about.

Let's start with some basics, since an understanding of standards and why they're necessary (not just recommended or a good idea), is sorely lacking amongst several of the discussion participants. Both film and video use standards to define both white and primary and secondary colors. Why bother with all this "dogma"? Because the human visual system is a notoriously poor absolute measuring tool. It is highly adaptable and perceives grays and colors based on the surrounding environment as a whole. This means that we are easily fooled into thinking we're seeing something that we're not. Go to the link below and click on the 3rd link from the top labeled "Colour Perception":

http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/illusions.aspx


In all three illusions, both grey or a color are made to appear to be another color because of how our brain interprets them based on their surroundings (both in terms of lighting and color). This means that you can't even be sure that you're seeing what you're seeing, let alone make a comparison between what you see on a display and what you remember seeing elsewhere.

This is why standards and calibration are important. We use absolute tools like colorimeters or spectrophotometers to measure the qualities of the white or color that our displays are showing in order to adjust them to match established white-point and gamut standards. Without these standards, each person in the process of creating film or video has no way of knowing if they're looking at what the previous person looked at or what the director intended them to be seeing. The end user is, of course, always free to deviate from these standards at home to create a picture to their personal tastes, but doing so and claiming that this is more correct is completely incorrect. It is not.

This brings me to my next point - Auditor55 claims that LCDs can reproduce a "true white" that plasmas cannot. This is completely untrue. White - as defined by the D65 standard - has only an x and y coordinate on the CIE1931 chromaticity diagram. In other words, the standard only specifies the proper ratio of red, green, and blue required to reproduce D65 white, but does not specify their overall intensity or brightness. Both plasma and LCD can reproduce true D65 white with no issues. When Auditor55 claims that LCDs produce a more "true white", he is succumbing to the limitations of his visual system and perceiving LCD's slightly brighter peak whites as "more true" than the slightly dimmer peak whites of plasma. However the color of white in both cases is exactly the same. To draw an analogy, switch back and forth between 100IRE and 80IRE white windows on a calibrated display - one could say that the 80 IRE window looks "dirty" or "off white". In reality you are looking at the exact same color of white, with the only difference being its brightness. Additionally, given that our visual system is highly adaptive, we will perceive the peak white in (for example) a front projection-based theater to be identical to the peak white in a bright room on a plasma when comparing two images by memory, even though the front display is many times brighter.

Given that this is a brightness issue and not a "spectral quality of white" issue, the claim that LCDs better approximate the white of a cloud is downright absurd. The actual brightness of a white cloud in daylight is many orders of magnitude brighter than any LCD can produce; on an absolute scale, plasma and LCD put out several hundred lux of light, while a white cloud in daylight will reflect upwards of 25,000 lux. In a relative comparison plasma and LCD are almost identical when compared to "real life".

In the end, LCD is no more capable of reproducing "true white" than is plasma; claiming this as proof of plasma's inferiority is misled at best.

Keep in mind I'm specifically refuting one of Auditor55's many fallacious arguments, NOT trying to illustrate a lack of difference between LCD and plasma. Each tech is appropriate for various applications, I just appreciate the advantage that plasma has for critical viewing applications.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #190 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 08:01 AM
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^^ great post. People tend to constantly forget our eyes perceive "relative" or are contrast driven. That's why only trust A/B test whenever possible. And why videophiles/ calibrators' reviews are rated highly because they know these issues.

In fact I think all our FIVE senses are designed to be contrast driven.
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post #191 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 08:02 AM
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Oke Hog, but what do you mean when you say true whites?

I concluded that there are cool (blueish) whites and warm (yellowish) whites and nothing inbetween.
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post #192 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 08:17 AM
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Oke Hog, but what do you mean when you say true whites?

I concluded that there are cool (blueish) whites and warm (yellowish) whites and nothing inbetween.
I was quoting Auditor55's use of the term. It has no defined meaning that I'm aware of in terms of display or source standards.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #193 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 08:50 AM
 
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^ ^ ^ No points were missed. Your points just are better suited in the Display Calibration area. A simple reference or link to that end is sufficient for anyone in this PDP LCD thread topic. Badgering and insisting that readers want or even need so much wordy technical jargon is just kind of arrogant and deriding. Folks who are interested in details of color specs can find them if they wish.
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post #194 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 09:03 AM
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^^ In short you're saying: you sing your tune and I'll sing mine... but we'll argue anyway

This will be my first troll line in AVS: There is no (or differing) basis, that's why there is no end.
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post #195 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 09:11 AM
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^ ^ ^ No points were missed. Your points just are better suited in the Display Calibration area. A simple reference or link to that end is sufficient for anyone in this PDP LCD thread topic. Badgering and insisting that readers want or even need so much wordy technical jargon is just kind of arrogant and deriding. Folks who are interested in details of color specs can find them if they wish.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make things for you. Auditor55 is claiming LCD is superior because it can reproduce "true white" (whatever that means) while plasma supposedly cannot. This is wrong, untrue, fallacious, I'm not sure of how many other different ways to put it. I've explained in detail why this is so and will not apologize that the explanation is technical and beyond your grasp.

If you don't like the truth, stay out of the discussion. Continually labeling technical discussions that are above your head as "condescension" and then painting it as being "badgered" with "technical jargon" at a place like AVS defies comprehension, and only serves to detract from an otherwise productive discussion.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #196 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 11:15 AM
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^ ^ ^ No points were missed. Your points just are better suited in the Display Calibration area. A simple reference or link to that end is sufficient for anyone in this PDP LCD thread topic. Badgering and insisting that readers want or even need so much wordy technical jargon is just kind of arrogant and deriding. Folks who are interested in details of color specs can find them if they wish.

Really?

It was a clear, valuable, articulate and informative post. What AVS IS all about.

Perhaps AVS is not for you? This is not the Amazon, Best Buy etc reviews?
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post #197 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by HogPilot View Post

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make things for you. Auditor55 is claiming LCD is superior because it can reproduce "true white" (whatever that means) while plasma supposedly cannot. This is wrong, untrue, fallacious, I'm not sure of how many other different ways to put it. I've explained in detail why this is so and will not apologize that the explanation is technical and beyond your grasp.

If you don't like the truth, stay out of the discussion. Continually labeling technical discussions that are above your head as "condescension" and then painting it as being "badgered" with "technical jargon" at a place like AVS defies comprehension, and only serves to detract from an otherwise productive discussion.

I believe your post was very informative and easy to comprehend. I think I may have opened a can of worms here with my reply to Auditor 55's comments on a PDP's inability to produce what he perceives as 'true' white.




I have a CRT, LCD, and a Plasma, and regardless of which set I'm viewing, those Yankee Uniforms still look white!




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post #198 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ebernazz View Post

Really?

It was a clear, valuable, articulate and informative post. What AVS IS all about.

Perhaps AVS is not for you? This is not the Amazon, Best Buy etc reviews?

AGREED. Hogpilot's post was a thing of beauty to read. Couldn't have been more informative and yet no brain exploding complexity involved. Where "so much wordy technical jargon" entered into it I have no idea.

Mourning the disappearing usage of the -ly suffix. Words being cut-off before they've had a chance to fully form, left incomplete, with their shoelaces untied and their zippers undone. If I quote your post (or post in your thread) without comment, please check your zipper.
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post #199 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 03:00 PM
 
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Phase, just so long as people stop spreading misinfo about Plasma's ability to display white level, all is well.
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post #200 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 03:36 PM
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Well, at least some people are here to learn rather than just seek any validation for their purchases and opinions.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #201 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 03:50 PM
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I think what may have started off this rancorous thread was the way some of the comments have been addressed to various posters. They seemed a tad bit harsh (just an observation) and maybe not quite called for. However, I'm hear to learn and add to my knowledge base so I'll just sit quietly and pick up what I can.
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post #202 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 04:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Phase, just so long as people stop spreading misinfo about Plasma's ability to display white level, all is well.

Yes. . . just "validating their purchasing choices" no doubt. They do seem to run in packs though, don't they? How they think anyone would stay around long enough to want to "learn" anything from that kind of dialog is pretty self assuming. Fortunately for all the years I've been on AVS there has been more friendly sharing than arrogant assertions. Many readers come here just for basic info and help setting up their every day TV. I guess they can't understand that. Everyone have a good evening!
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post #203 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Yes. . . just "validating their purchasing choices" no doubt. They do seem to run in packs though, don't they? How they think anyone would stay around long enough to want to "learn" anything from that kind of dialog is pretty self assuming. Fortunately for all the years I've been on AVS there has been more friendly sharing than arrogant assertions. Many readers come here just for basic info and help setting up their every day TV. I guess they can't understand that. Everyone have a good evening!

Given the ratio of positive responses to negative ones to my post, it seems you are in the minority and people are in fact benefiting from my posts. Of course, they're not taking my recitation of calibration standards as a personal assault on their display preferences.

Someone who is here to contribute would respond to any one of the technical points I've made in previous posts. However, as usual you've ignored all that and instead chosen to cry victim status and paint the whole of my commentary as derisive in a banal attempt to dismiss it in its entirety.

As I previously said, I will not apologize for presenting well established fact in the face of opinion poorly thrust forth as fact. Get as upset and name-call as much as you want; it will only serve to continually erode the validity of your position.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #204 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 05:37 PM
 
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Come on people! How can you even take this thread seriously when the OP couldnt even spell grim right? When I first saw this thread I thought maybe there was another Grimm's brothers movie coming out
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post #205 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 05:55 PM
 
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Come on people! How can you even take this thread seriously when the OP couldnt even spell grim right? When I first saw this thread I thought maybe there was another Grimm's brothers movie coming out

Only some have takenit too seriously.

It has offered an off beat comic relief for sure!

And, ever notice how some people make up "quotes" for things people didn't say and impute dialog that never occurred? For someone so hung up on "facts" it is rather hilarious.

v v v v
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post #206 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Only some have taken too seriously.

It has offered an off beat comic relief for sure!

Ah yes, when all else fails, feign nonchalance: "I didn't really care despite all my posts..."

Comic relief indeed.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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post #207 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 07:44 PM
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How about if we get back to our regularly scheduled program and stop the negative commentary
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post #208 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Come on people! How can you even take this thread seriously when the OP couldnt even spell grim right? When I first saw this thread I thought maybe there was another Grimm's brothers movie coming out

Well, thank you for gracing us with your presence nonetheless.

Let me try and fix it for you.

P.S. IF they came out with another movie, I am ashamed to say that I may have to watch it!
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post #209 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

Only some have takenit too seriously.

It has offered an off beat comic relief for sure!

And, ever notice how some people make up "quotes" for things people didn't say and impute dialog that never occurred? For someone so hung up on "facts" it is rather hilarious.

v v v v

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post #210 of 398 Old 09-08-2011, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Phase700B View Post

And, ever notice how some people make up "quotes" for things people didn't say and impute dialog that never occurred? For someone so hung up on "facts" it is rather hilarious.

v v v v

What's really funny is that I never attributed that statement to you. You must have assumed I was talking about you because you were actually behaving that way.

Hilarious!

But to bring the thread back on topic, do you have any informed response to my white point "wordy technical jargon" above, or would you rather stick to whining about people who disagree with you? What was that fancy word you used above? "Impute?" It's funny that you accuse someone of imputing dialog when you impute an "arrogant and deriding" tone to me because I said you were wrong. Boo hoo!

Hopefully you'll better approve of my use of quotations from here on out.

There are 10 types of people: those who understand binary, and those who don't.

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