Future of pdp is grimm? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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With the 929 doing so well in so many areas and the pdp manufacturers seemingly making lateral movements as opposed to advancements, it seems possible that those loyal to pdp tech may jump ship. especially considering the buzz around the new Elite and LG' nanotechnology

Note: I am referring strictly to full backlit local dimming displays, not that edge lit/"local dimming" junk.
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post #2 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 02:20 PM
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Well, the present of PDP is dramatically cheaper than the high-end full-array locally dimmed stuff. But it's also fair to say that PDP's high-end does not appear to be advancing much.

The future is probably cheaper for PDP.

I would like to see an LCD that can maintain full brightness and contrast out to at least 45 degrees before getting too excited.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #3 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 02:26 PM
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Oh goody! we were due for another "death of plasma" thread.

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post #4 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Well, the present of PDP is dramatically cheaper than the high-end full-array locally dimmed stuff. But it's also fair to say that PDP's high-end does not appear to be advancing much.

The future is probably cheaper for PDP.

I would like to see an LCD that can maintain full brightness and contrast out to at least 45 degrees before getting too excited.

*Nod*

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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

Oh goody! we were due for another "death of plasma" thread.

Referring strictly from an enthusiasts perspective.

For the record, I own an 8 and 9G Kuro along with an XBR4, so I am certainly not a plasma hater. It just seems that unless pdp manufacturers take a long hard look at the state of the technology things will become relatively dark for them.
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post #5 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

It just seems that unless pdp manufacturers take a long hard look at the state of the technology things will become relatively dark for them.


I believe you have just opened up a can of worms with this thread.






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post #6 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 03:46 PM
 
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I think the fact that PDP got "so cheap" is why there are only three big manufacturers left.

Hitachi didn't do itself(or Pioneer) any favors when they tried to go upstream.

Plasma is not going anywhere. All the talk you keep reading about OLED tells me that LCD will die first.

How is that?

Plasma can STILL get even cheaper. What keeps the prices this high is the fact LCD can't compete on cost. The only reason a 42" 1080P plasma costs $700-ish is because LCD is still $1000.

When DuPont "can" release 40,000hr sheets* for $70 an inch ($2500-ish at 42") the death knell for LCD will have rung.

*Dupont says they are not working on traditional panels as we know them now. More like screens for projectors...that don't need the projector.

My prediction...all based on "when" DuPont actually sells their 40,000hr sheets...(no matter which "end manufacturer" uses them)

LCD dead in 2 years.
DLP rear projection dead in 3.
PDP dead in 4.
Projectors dead in 5.

The best part of DuPont's method?
The layer of "non emitting" can be woven. (IE acoustically transparent)
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post #7 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269
I think the fact that PDP got "so cheap" is why there are only three big manufacturers left.
How many LCD TV >40" panel manufacturers are there?

Think this is one of the most misquoted fact in this forum. For sure it's a fact, but irrelevant.
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post #8 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269
Plasma can STILL get even cheaper. What keeps the prices this high is the fact LCD can't compete on cost. The only reason a 42" 1080P plasma costs $700-ish is because LCD is still $1000.
Plasma is about break-even in 2Q while LCD is still at a loss, but cost gap is probably around 10% for 42" and nowhere near 30%.
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post #9 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 05:32 PM
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At least till 2020 nothing drastic will happen in flatscreenland, talking about LCd/Plasma future in 2011 makes very little sense.
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post #10 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 05:44 PM
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Plasma technology is already beautiful. Lack of technological improvements are fine with me. LCD technology is "improving" each and every year, which means your last year's TV is inferior to this years TV. Your newest LCD of today is obsolete tomorrow. It never ends. Not so with Plasma.
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post #11 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tazishere;
Plasma technology is already beautiful. Lack of technological improvements are fine with me. LCD technology is "improving" each and every year, which means your last year's TV is inferior to this years TV. Your newest LCD of today is obsolete tomorrow. It never ends. Not so with Plasma.
2010/2011 TOP LCd's are slightly better than 2009 UNB8500 and 2008 XBR8, its an embarrassment that manufacturers in 2010/2011 where not able to build a Plasma as good or even better as 2008 Elite Kuro PRO-111FD.
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post #12 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post
With the 929 doing so well in so many areas and the pdp manufacturers seemingly making lateral movements as opposed to advancements, it seems possible that those loyal to pdp tech may jump ship. especially considering the buzz around the new Elite and LG' nanotechnology

Note: I am referring strictly to full backlit local dimming displays, not that edge lit/"local dimming" junk.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling.
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post #13 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
its an embarrassment that manufacturers in 2010/2011 where not able to build a Plasma as good or even better as 2008 Elite Kuro PRO-111FD.

It's not about what they can't do. It's about what they won't do, because of current market trends and cost.


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post #14 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

With the 929 doing so well in so many areas and the pdp manufacturers seemingly making lateral movements as opposed to advancements, it seems possible that those loyal to pdp tech may jump ship. especially considering the buzz around the new Elite and LG' nanotechnology

Note: I am referring strictly to full backlit local dimming displays, not that edge lit/"local dimming" junk.

I trend to agree with you. I own a 101fd and before that a Fujitsu plasma, however my next panel will probably be a local dimming LED. None of the remaining plasma companies seem to be all that interested in pushing the envelope. The VT30 is basically the same tv as the VT25 and the same can be said for the Samsungs. It sucks because plasma technology has so much potential and still has room to improve.

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #15 of 398 Old 08-03-2011, 11:57 PM
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My next "plasma" will be a OLED. Absolute blacks in 180 degrees viewing-field can not be all that bad..
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post #16 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 03:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

Oh goody! we were due for another "death of plasma" thread.

Could it be? yes! IT'S DRUM CIRCLE TIME! Will the Kuro circle get too upset id we sit near them?

"Bring out yer dead!".."Wait I'm not dead yet!"..(Sound Austrian here) "WRONG !!" (You know what happens next..)
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post #17 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang;
It's not about what they can't do. It's about what they won't do, because of current market trends and cost.


Ian
Some very expensive Plasma's and LCd's, such as the panasonic Vx300 an the sharp pro-70x5fd/pro-60x5fd are hitting the market, plasma manufacturers easily could build a $5.000/$10.000 KURO killer - limited edition, i don't believe they have the will and the know-how to build such a TV right now.
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post #18 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Some very expensive Plasma's and LCd's, such as the panasonic Vx300 an the sharp pro-70x5fd/pro-60x5fd are hitting the market, plasma manufacturers easily could build a $5.000/$10.000 KURO killer - limited edition, i don't believe they have the will and the know-how to build such a TV right now.
No will? Yes. No know how? No. I've worked with these companies, and if they wanted to spend the time and money to develop a set that rivals the Kuro they would. As far as the VX300 is concerned, how it will be priced and how it will match up, remains to be seen.


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post #19 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post
Some very expensive Plasma's and LCd's, such as the panasonic Vx300 an the sharp pro-70x5fd/pro-60x5fd are hitting the market, plasma manufacturers easily could build a $5.000/$10.000 KURO killer - limited edition, i don't believe they have the will and the know-how to build such a TV right now.
The problem with the VX300 is that Panasonic is calling it part of their Pro line and will most likely charge a premium for that alone. I recently decided that I'm not going to spend a premium price four years later for a plasma that is still not putting out a picture as good as the 101fd that I have now. I just can't encourage that lack of innovation. LED companies seems to be the only one really interested in pushing the envelope and maximizing their respective technology on the consumer side and I want to encourage that. Many very respected plasma people are saying some really nice things about the HX929 and the new sharps look very promising. Plasma hasn't seen that kind of buzz in almost four going on four years now.

The 101 is soooo very nice!!!
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post #20 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 09:30 AM
 
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I have no idea why everyone is crying. Pioneer got out of the plasma business for 2 reasons...

1. Their market shrank, which no longer justified "sumo priced" plasma.
2. Hitachi tried unsuccessfully to eat some of their lunch.

Even if Hitachi had never created the Director Series, both (or at least one) would still be out of plasma. Pioneer was too proud of itself to lower the price. Panasonic, Samsung and LG were more than happy to offer 92% of the picture quality at 40% of the price.

What happened? People walked right past Pioneer and bought one of the other three. I know the people that run the Milwaukee office(now there is also a Chicago) for the largest Directv and Pioneer distributorship in the US(they are also the larget Mits and Toshiba as well). These guys were the last ones to have any of the Kuro Signature Monitors(KRP). Up to January, the company still had 3 of the 60" in stock. Of course the wholesale cost to a dealer on them was still 4 times what a top model LG 60" cost. Pioneer still hadn't lowered the cost them.

Personally, I don't feel sorry for Pioneer. Yes the plasma were awesome...for those willing to spend the money. If you are so upset, there are always these...
http://www.runco.com/products/flat-p...splays/plasma/
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post #21 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

I have no idea why everyone is crying.










Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 View Post

Pioneer was too proud of itself to lower the price. Panasonic, Samsung and LG were more than happy to offer 92% of the picture quality at 40% of the price. What happened? People walked right past Pioneer and bought one of the other three.


Good analogy.






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post #22 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Some very expensive Plasma's and LCd's, such as the panasonic Vx300 an the sharp pro-70x5fd/pro-60x5fd are hitting the market, plasma manufacturers easily could build a $5.000/$10.000 KURO killer - limited edition, i don't believe they have the will and the know-how to build such a TV right now.

They have the know-how. Pioneer had the know-how and it cost so much that nobody bought it and they had to drop out of the tv business. Panasonic owns the know-how already.

I'm seeing posts from folks insisting that current plasma makers should bust the bank to exceed the Kuro, and in the same post they're saying they won't pay the price of admission. Sorta like insisting Toyota build a BMW killer and price it like a Camry.

Steve S.
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post #23 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 02:06 PM
 
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Amen on "build us a 'Toyota M3", but we won't buy it unless you price it like a Yaris".
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post #24 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve S; View Post

They have the know-how. Pioneer had the know-how and it cost so much that nobody bought it and they had to drop out of the tv business. Panasonic owns the know-how already.

Right, panasonic owns the pioneer stuff, the problem is how to integrate the pioneer stuff into panasonic tech.

Panasonic has the know-how to build a $5.000/$10.000 KURO killer right now?
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post #25 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 02:54 PM
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What if a Kuro killer looked so good that people stayed home and watched it instead of going to the movies?
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post #26 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Right, panasonic owns the pioneer stuff, the problem is how to integrate the pioneer stuff into panasonic tech.

Panasonic has the know-how to build a $5.000/$10.000 KURO killer right now?

They are a multi billion dollar company. What do you think?



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post #27 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang; View Post

They are a multi billion dollar company. What do you think?



Ian

No, i don't believe they can bring a KURO killer on the market that costs $5.000/$10.000 in the store. They might come up with a $15.000/$25.000 Plasma that is nearly as good as a 111F.

As i said before, you need know-how to build a KUROkiller and you need know-how to build it cheap ($5.000/$10.000), its not just a matter of spending time and money., if that was the case we allready had a 55inch OLED - they simply don't know how to do it.

And no, the VX300 is not a KURO killer. DNice wrote that...his advise would be to stop attempting to hype ( hype --> Panasonic Vx300 finally detrone mighty Kuro? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1347934 ) this panel into something it is not. that should tell you something .... and its price will be OVERPRICED like most flatscreens.
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post #28 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

What if a Kuro killer looked so good that people stayed home and watched it instead of going to the movies?

I don't go to the movies and haven't done so since Tom Cruise's pathetic version of War of the Worlds. All those people addicted to their cell phones, making noise, and otherwise being rude and obnoxious. No thanks.
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post #29 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

No, i don't believe they can bring a KURO killer on the market that costs $5.000/$10.000 in the store. They might come up with a $15.000/$25.000 Plasma that is nearly as good as a 111F.

As i said before, you need know-how to build a KUROkiller and you need know-how to build it cheap ($5.000/$10.000), its not just a matter of spending time and money., if that was the case we allready had a 55inch OLED - they simply don't know how to do it.

And no, the VX300 is not a KURO killer. DNice wrote that...his advise would be to stop attempting to hype ( hype --> Panasonic Vx300 finally detrone mighty Kuro? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1347934 ) this panel into something it is not. that should tell you something .... and its price will be OVERPRICED like most flatscreens.


It's all about R and D and they just don't want or need to spend money on it. Same reason Exon/Mobile makes billions every year but only invests about 100 mil on alternative energy projects. As far as the VX300 is concerned, DNice or no DNice, I'm not drawing any conclusions until the set is released.


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post #30 of 398 Old 08-04-2011, 09:30 PM
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Future of pdp is grimm?

The perfect TV is a Fairy Tale...
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