LG Official Announces 55" OLED for CES- - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 05:43 AM
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It'll be close at the next shootout when they pit the VT50 against the Sammy and LG OLEDs- provided they make it by the end of the year.

Remember how the Elite was considered the new standard 6 months ago and now the VT50 beats the Elite-easily from the pictures I've seen. Both of them are still behind the best of Kuro.

I really think we're looking at a 10% performance boost at best. The thing that'll make all the plasma videophiles happy is how there won't be any issue with low apl scenes anymore. There is still content that makes the 500m begin to slightly grey... 1% of content on the whole, but for the person who wants the best...

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post #602 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 06:06 AM
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Reality Check:

If The LG and Samsung OLED models are included in the next shootout; they will need to finish either tied for first or finish first and second in the rankings; or else they should be viewed as over priced huge disappointments. I expect that they will win the top two spots in the next comparison contest.
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post #603 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Reality Check:

If The LG and Samsung OLED models are included in the next shootout; they will need to finish either tied for first or finish first and second in the rankings; or else they should be viewed as over priced huge disappointments. I expect that they will win the top two spots in the next comparison contest.

The first plasma models were much more expensive, smaller, and had pitiful performances compared to CRT's.

So, overpriced ? huge disappointment ?
I don't think so.

It will definitively be a leap from what we have now (average plasma/LCD's), but this technology is no different than any other, it will get better over time and optimized as well.

They're trying to not reproduce the same plasma mistakes.

Once the first models on the market, peoples will start judging and condemn the technology if it has serious flaws on the first models.

And once those prejudices are installed, we all know how hard it is to dislodge them and change mentalities.

Hence the "late" commercialization of the first panels, optimize at max before releasing, but still rushing to stay ahead on the market.
I'm going to wait 2 years to buy my first OLED panel, by then price will drop drastically and technology will be more mature.
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post #604 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 08:23 AM
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I hope oled really wipes the floor with plasma and LCD in the next shootout. I'm soon ready for a true next gen display.
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post #605 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 08:25 AM
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From this photo of the back of the LG OLED panel, it appears that they have no need for ventilation slots or holes so the display must not run very hot.
http://cdn2.digitaltrends.com/wp-con...3180288918.jpg


I surmise that is mainly because of having most of the processing done in a seperate module which is connected to the panel by just a single digital cable.

Having the panel sealed in this manner, should keep it's internals almost entirely free from dust penetration.
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post #606 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by brody76 View Post

I agree, but it only matters to videophiles (small niche) in the end.

Average consumers won't see the difference, or either wont pay too much attention to it. I somehow doubt the colors will be bad to the point where the average consumer will consider this as a factor for buying an OLED.

Picky ones will stay on their Kuro.

Because, lets be honest, it's either plasma or plasma at the moment, LCD has to be 100x times worse in terms of color reproduction.
OLED has enough room to install a new standard, and I'm pretty confident that colors will blast anything and won't be an issue at all.

No offense but you sound allot like a Plasma fan. I don't wish to start an argument but In my book the ELITE is superior to the KURO in many ways. Perhaps not in color accuracy but there are more important things then that. As for the color I think the ELITE comes close enough, looks great to my eyes and to Kevin Miller's who calibrated my ELITE. Additionally according to Ken any many other people who (also) own a KURO the ELITE looks better. So you see it's all up to the viewer and what's important to you.

PS: OLED is going to be a game changer for both, our arguments about LED vs Plasma is futile in the end.

 

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post #607 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

From this photo of the back of the LG OLED panel, it appears that they have no need for ventilation slots or holes so the display must not run very hot.
http://cdn2.digitaltrends.com/wp-con...3180288918.jpg


I surmise that is mainly because of having most of the processing done in a seperate module which is connected to the panel by just a single digital cable.

Having the panel sealed in this manner, should keep it's internals almost entirely free from dust penetration.

I'd like to think that the display is completely solid. Dust has nowhere to go.
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post #608 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by RadTech51 View Post

No offense but you sound allot like a Plasma fan. I don't wish to start an argument but In my book the ELITE is superior to the KURO in many ways. Perhaps not in color accuracy but there are more important things then that. As for the color I think the ELITE comes close enough, looks great to my eyes and to Kevin Miller's who calibrated my ELITE. Additionally according to Ken any many other people who (also) own a KURO the ELITE looks better. So you see it's all up to the viewer and what's important to you.

PS: OLED is going to be a game changer for both, our arguments about LED vs Plasma is futile in the end.

The ELITE Is indeed better, I'm not going to deny it.
But at what cost ? We're talking about 8k.

Added to those 8k, some LCD flaws like blooming, yellowish picture, and other issues being stated in the official topic.

It's very expensive ...

If I had to choose, I'd grab a Kuro somewhere near 4-5k and have something very similar to the Sharp with the current technology.

I bought more LCD's than Plasmas, and when I bought my first plasma I couldn't buy another LCD anymore. I just couldn't do it .. every time I would lay my eyes on a LCD I would find the colors horrible, the blacks blueish/grey, etc..

If we need to pay 8k to get an LCD that can perform like a plasma, I'd advise to save and buy an OLED in this case. Which will perform better, and cost about the same price.

Not mentioning that, in few years, the OLED price will drop significantly, while the ELITE's will still be expensive for less performances (there is no way an LCD is going to match an OLED, especially the next generations).
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post #609 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

It'll be close at the next shootout when they pit the VT50 against the Sammy and LG OLEDs- provided they make it by the end of the year.

Remember how the Elite was considered the new standard 6 months ago and now the VT50 beats the Elite-easily from the pictures I've seen. Both of them are still behind the best of Kuro.

I really think we're looking at a 10% performance boost at best. The thing that'll make all the plasma videophiles happy is how there won't be any issue with low apl scenes anymore. There is still content that makes the 500m begin to slightly grey... 1% of content on the whole, but for the person who wants the best...

if theres a new Elite then that'll also be included. if the color issue is resolved i dont see why it wouldnt easily topple any plasma.
and 10% performance boost? you base this on what?
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post #610 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brody76 View Post

The ELITE Is indeed better, I'm not going to deny it.
But at what cost ? We're talking about 8k.

Added to those 8k, some LCD flaws like blooming, yellowish picture, and other issues being stated in the official topic.

It's very expensive ...

If I had to choose, I'd grab a Kuro somewhere near 4-5k and have something very similar to the Sharp with the current technology.

I bought more LCD's than Plasmas, and when I bought my first plasma I couldn't buy another LCD anymore. I just couldn't do it .. every time I would lay my eyes on a LCD I would find the colors horrible, the blacks blueish/grey, etc..

If we need to pay 8k to get an LCD that can perform like a plasma, I'd advise to save and buy an OLED in this case. Which will perform better, and cost about the same price.

Not mentioning that, in few years, the OLED price will drop significantly, while the ELITE's will still be expensive for less performances (there is no way an LCD is going to match an OLED, especially the next generations).

I agree with allot of what you are saying, but remember the reason you kept thinking Plasma looked better in the past over LED is because it did up until very recently specifically when the ELITE came out. I'd have gotten another Plasma or waited for an OLED if the ELITE hadn't of come along to.

 

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post #611 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 03:33 PM
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Appreciate that there is different technologies that compete against each other - we the consumer benefit from it - better PQ, better pricing, better product all round - excepting where manufacturer's start taking short cuts to get the price down, and the PQ suffers! OLEL, QLED - all progressing us to where it will seem we are actually outdoors while watching those BBC Videos! (And without the danger involved!) Looking forward to my first OLED!
Thank goodness also for the Internet and Forums, Manufacturers down grading their product to get that cheaper product and PQ, are quickly found out, and the word spread! ie the LG 55LW9800 - it didn't get very far once the Members found out about it's downgrading last year!
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post #612 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MaXPL View Post

if theres a new Elite then that'll also be included. if the color issue is resolved i dont see why it wouldnt easily topple any plasma.
and 10% performance boost? you base this on what?

I'm basing all of this on the following: Going by the latest flatpanel shootout the Elite measured an mll of .0004 ft/L, yet it doesn't have as good contrast as the VT50 that measured in around .0018-.002 ft/L. Contrast being ANSI or perceived depth with pictures and checkerboard patterns. Even on the terrible pictures taken from the shootout, the VT50 appears to have more depth/pop than the Elite at high and low apl content on the whole.

If the new Elite is able to give better ANSI contrast numbers, along with an even deeper black during low apl content (where you can't tell the bezel from the screen) how much better is OLED really going to be? If black is so deep that no luminance can be seen and they solve the color issue, what's really going to be that much better?

My old ST30 was about 80% of my Kuro- just comparing blu ray material, so since the 9.5G black is so intensely deep, the colors reference, the gamma spot on, the motion amazing, and with an ANSI score of around 50,000:1, how the heck can OLED be so strikingly better? I think if you include 0 mll- that's maybe 10% better than the 9.5G sets.

If the LGs end up having some color shifting issues like those reported by a few CES attendees, then that alone does not best plasma. There were those that found the VT50 demos more impressive than the OLED demos.

I completely believe OLED will best plasma- maybe not this year though, but there are all these people now amazed with the VT50, the set that trounced the Elite at the shootout and there's still a 3 yr old panel that beats it in measurements. The major flatpanel advancement happened with Kuro and then with the 9Gs and basically neared perfection with the 9.5G sets. If I ever get the D-Nice black level adjustment, I suspect I wouldn't even care about OLED at that point.

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post #613 of 862 Old 05-26-2012, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm basing all of this on the following: Going by the latest flatpanel shootout the Elite measured an mll of .0004 ft/L, yet it doesn't have as good contrast as the VT50 that measured in around .0018-.002 ft/L. Contrast being ANSI or perceived depth with pictures and checkerboard patterns. Even on the terrible pictures taken from the shootout, the VT50 appears to have more depth/pop than the Elite at high and low apl content on the whole.

If the new Elite is able to give better ANSI contrast numbers, along with an even deeper black during low apl content (where you can't tell the bezel from the screen) how much better is OLED really going to be? If black is so deep that no luminance can be seen and they solve the color issue, what's really going to be that much better?

I completely believe OLED will best plasma- maybe not this year though, but there are all these people now amazed with the VT50, the set that trounced the Elite at the shootout and there's still a 3 yr old panel that beats it in measurements. The major flatpanel advancement happened with Kuro and then with the 9Gs and basically neared perfection with the 9.5G sets. If I ever get the D-Nice black level adjustment, I suspect I wouldn't even care about OLED at that point.

Back lit local dimming will inherently have variable black level according to APL. Even worse it will have spatially variable black level according to distance from an active zone. This is all due to the panel wide crosstalk via the diffuser.

OLED crosstalk has the potential to be as good or better than plasma depending on the design.

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post #614 of 862 Old 05-27-2012, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Some new details from the LG OLED demonstration in Monaco yesterday.

"LG'S OLED-TV HAS SMART TV & CINEMA 3D, IS 4 MM THICK"

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1337841820

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/pictures/lg55em9600-5.jpg

I wonder where they put the speakers? If it's 4 mm thick, can they really have integrated speakers? Or does the TV require you too hook it up to a separate audio system?
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post #615 of 862 Old 05-27-2012, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Fjodor2000 View Post

I wonder where they put the speakers? If it's 4 mm thick, can they really have integrated speakers? Or does the TV require you too hook it up to a separate audio system?

If you're spending this much money on a TV, I doubt you're seriously going to listen to an onboard speaker? They could have just left it out completely and dropped the price by $1.50 for the value it would have.
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post #616 of 862 Old 05-27-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox View Post

Back lit local dimming will inherently have variable black level according to APL. Even worse it will have spatially variable black level according to distance from an active zone. This is all due to the panel wide crosstalk via the diffuser.

OLED crosstalk has the potential to be as good or better than plasma depending on the design.

Keeping on/off contrast the same as ansi might be an issue in the first generation of OLED sets.

I'm guessing crosstalk meaning the ability for individual pixels to turn on and off without effecting adjacent ones. Panasonic is pretty close to it now, and I think the 500m/101fd were the only plasmas that could actually do it.

Thanks for chiming in on this one, xrox.

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post #617 of 862 Old 05-27-2012, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

If you're spending this much money on a TV, I doubt you're seriously going to listen to an onboard speaker? They could have just left it out completely and dropped the price by $1.50 for the value it would have.

i wonder if they'd have to label it as a Monitor instead, if it doesn't provide audio.

as for potential speakers, they might use ribbon speakers that are also 4mm thin (magnepan makes some, iirc)

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post #618 of 862 Old 05-27-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmarceau View Post

I'm basing all of this on the following: Going by the latest flatpanel shootout the Elite measured an mll of .0004 ft/L, yet it doesn't have as good contrast as the VT50 that measured in around .0018-.002 ft/L. Contrast being ANSI or perceived depth with pictures and checkerboard patterns. Even on the terrible pictures taken from the shootout, the VT50 appears to have more depth/pop than the Elite at high and low apl content on the whole.

If the new Elite is able to give better ANSI contrast numbers, along with an even deeper black during low apl content (where you can't tell the bezel from the screen) how much better is OLED really going to be? If black is so deep that no luminance can be seen and they solve the color issue, what's really going to be that much better?

My old ST30 was about 80% of my Kuro- just comparing blu ray material, so since the 9.5G black is so intensely deep, the colors reference, the gamma spot on, the motion amazing, and with an ANSI score of around 50,000:1, how the heck can OLED be so strikingly better? I think if you include 0 mll- that's maybe 10% better than the 9.5G sets.

If the LGs end up having some color shifting issues like those reported by a few CES attendees, then that alone does not best plasma. There were those that found the VT50 demos more impressive than the OLED demos.

I completely believe OLED will best plasma- maybe not this year though, but there are all these people now amazed with the VT50, the set that trounced the Elite at the shootout and there's still a 3 yr old panel that beats it in measurements. The major flatpanel advancement happened with Kuro and then with the 9Gs and basically neared perfection with the 9.5G sets. If I ever get the D-Nice black level adjustment, I suspect I wouldn't even care about OLED at that point.

The VT50 still doesn't have as good of Black Levels as the ELITE, not to mention the full screen bright whites the ELITE is capable of putting out over the VT50. However they did make some nice improvements to the black levels on the VT50 compared to the VT30 but it's sad it still had bad flicker in 96hz mode. OLED will be superior to Plasma I agree, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

 

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post #619 of 862 Old 05-27-2012, 08:34 PM
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I didn't say that. What I am saying is to be realistic what 1st Gen OLED TV can do, given the technology constraints. The positive attributes I have posted in the other thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post22023222

What remains is motion handling and color tracking. We have discussed at length the issue with color mapping with RGBW. And PQ to J6P is different from VE Shootout.

And I'm one of the proponents of OLED TV almost 2 years ago.

Why not stick to the subject and not including other posts, or talking about J6P, PQ is PQ and most people buying such expensive sets will read reviews.

You did say "I won't be surprised if OLED didn't win the shootout later this year. They would probably get the best black level and contrast score though". I did not agree with that http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=579

You replied "But consider that this is a 1st gen OLED, top 3 would be satisfactory." I also have very hard time to agree it would be satisfactory. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=581

Your 3rd place speculation would place both LG's and Samsung's OLED behind the Plasma TV's in the shootout.

So lets wait and see or since you're not J6P do you want to put a small bet on it.
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post #621 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 12:11 AM
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^^ If you feel the need to analyse my English, Top 3 means OLED TV MIGHT win the shootout (1st, 2nd & 3rd are considered top 3), but evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Is there a probability? Yes (since the most important visual perception-black level and contrast would win) but small. And posters here inferring from OLED monitors hadn't been following the OLED thread past 12 months. TV size display and monitors are not the same thing.

Neither is LG's EL9500 using same RGBW tech.

PQ is not PQ when people talk about "vibrant" colors. VE Shootout don't look at "vibrant" colors. And they do so in darkness, which is what LCD advocates often cry foul on. And people with expensive Elite say cyan is not an issue. Which review you talking about when you say "most people buying such expensive sets will read reviews"? Obviously the platform is different for different people.

I have a 2 year old bet that a 31" OLED will be $5k this Christmas, when people back then think OLED is too expensive to be commercialised. This bet would be hard to conclude unless we intrapolate the price. I have a 3 months old bet against people that say OLED TV is vapourware this year. I think I'll skip a bet with a 6 year old 16 posts forumer... no offence... high counterparty risk since I am very willing to pay up if I lose
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post #622 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericsson View Post


Thanks! Some information from the video:
  • Demo models in the UK in July
  • Available in Europe in Q4
  • Price 9,000!
  • Production target of 50,000 worldwide in 2012
  • David Coulthard does not know what type of TV he has in his 4 homes
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post #623 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 03:02 AM
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Neither is LG's EL9500 using same RGBW tech.

Yes it is. It's obviously smaller, but it's the same RGBW technology.
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post #624 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 05:23 AM
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Spent an hour searching for this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17720611

The irony is that when OLED is finally here, OLED thread anchor Isochroma is nowhere to be seen.
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post #625 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by specuvestor View Post

Spent an hour searching for this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17720611

It's interesting information though. So they had a 15" RGB panel and a 15" RGBW panel in 2009, and the 15EL9500 from 2010 is apparently based on the RGB panel according to that text. I took for granted from this information that the 15EL9500 must be RGBW.

Quote:


The irony is that when OLED is finally here, OLED thread anchor Isochroma is nowhere to be seen.

Indeed. He has not posted anything for more than a year.
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post #626 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ferro View Post

Thanks! Some information from the video:
  • Demo models in the UK in July
  • Available in Europe in Q4
  • Price 9,000!
  • Production target of 50,000 worldwide in 2012
  • David Coulthard does not know what type of TV he has in his 4 homes

Interesting that their super rich target demo, have no idea what kind of display they have. At that projected price, they will be lucky to sell half that volume worldwide, especially at over $11,000 USD for a 55".
Could the rise in the projected price from 9K to 11K USD, be an indication of reduced production yields? Are they really still throwing out 50% of what they produce for defects, as the interviewer says? LG is going to have some heavy loses in the OLED market, before they can make them dominant in the next 5-6 years.
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post #627 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

If you're spending this much money on a TV, I doubt you're seriously going to listen to an onboard speaker? They could have just left it out completely and dropped the price by $1.50 for the value it would have.

I agree. Most people that are gonna spend big money for a display will already have a AVR and speakers.

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post #628 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Interesting that their super rich target demo, have no idea what kind of display they have. At that projected price, they will be lucky to sell half that volume worldwide, especially at over $11,000 USD for a 55".
Could the rise in the projected price from 9K to 11K USD, be an indication of reduced production yields? Are they really still throwing out 50% of what they produce for defects, as the interviewer says? LG is going to have some heavy loses in the OLED market, before they can make them dominant in the next 5-6 years.


Actually; It was just this one rich race driver who said he did not know what types of panels were in his various residences, but he also said that he does not watch TV very much at all, so I doubt if you can consider him to be representative of an entire Deep Pockets class. In fact he came across as not having a clue about anything other than his profession; and I wonder why the hell they even wasted so much time interviewing him about a technology that he appears to never have even heard of before that day.
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post #629 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by RadTech51 View Post

The VT50 still doesn't have as good of Black Levels as the ELITE, not to mention the full screen bright whites the ELITE is capable of putting out over the VT50. However they did make some nice improvements to the black levels on the VT50 compared to the VT30 but it's sad it still had bad flicker in 96hz mode. OLED will be superior to Plasma I agree, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

Will be, but I wonder how long and at what price? It sounds like Panasonic is in development to really advance PDP tech in the next couple years. Which makes sense because Samsung and (i believe) Panasonic have stated that they plan to make PDPs through 2020.

I have a feeling Panasonic is reviving "Project Kuro" or something along those lines. Over at the other forum, BillP made note of how much PDP has changed since he saw his first one in 2000 compared to the VT50 now, they look like two completely different technologies. The insider then replied "In the next 2-3 years you may be saying the same thing about the vt50 when this next gen pdp tech comes out". D-Nice further added to the excitement "Ahhh so you guys have been making progress on the prototype. I'm ready to upgrade".

If this is what happens, PDP will be able to compete against OLED for some time.

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post #630 of 862 Old 05-28-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by p5browne View Post

If you're spending this much money on a TV, I doubt you're seriously going to listen to an onboard speaker? They could have just left it out completely and dropped the price by $1.50 for the value it would have.

There are lots of people who buy expensive TVs without using external audio. Even though I agree that the more expensive the TV, the more likely it probably is that someone has external audio. But sometimes there is no space for people to have a large audio system in their living room, e.g. for people living in small apartments.

Even high end TV sets like the Kuro, Elite or 65" Sony HX929 have internal audio. I don't think I've ever seen a high end set without internal audio!

So the question still remains, how do they fit the internal audio in the 4 mm thick 55" LG OLED? I'm just curious. Or do you really think they have skipped it totally?
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