Three Simple Ideas to Make Plasma More User Friendly - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Having walked through countless stores displaying lcds and plasmas, it never ceases to amaze me how poorly plasmas look without anti-reflective filters. I often wonder if it was less so brightness and more so the lack of a filter to preserve color that led many uninformed consumers to migrate to lcds.

This led me to think about two of the other most common complaints pre or post purchase of plasmas: Susceptibility total destruction by thrown objects; and image retention from static logos, heads up displays, or scrolling tickers.

Here are my modest proposals to Panasonic, Samsung, and LG:

1. Put a decent AR filter on every plasma regardless of cost. Jettison usb playback or streaming, but put some form of filter on the screen.
2. Copy Sony and partner with a form like Corning to offer Gorilla Glass or similar on the fascia. This will make every young father in the market maintain reasonable blood pressure when his toddler grabs a plastic broccoli and looks manically at sponge bob
3. Create a sub menu in the typical white wash screen that displays a dark gray picture with a target light gray section to tackle the normal areas of image retention: bottom rectangle; lower right corner for logos; and side bars created by 4:3 images. Make the lighter areas pulsate in intensity like the scrolling bar and fade to darker gray to the remainder of the image.

These all add some cost, but effectively disspell or defeat the usual complaints regarding plasmas.
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post #2 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 02:26 PM
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Almost all plasmas have a decent AR filter.

Gorilla Glass is expensive enough and the benefits clearly perceived as small enough in the market that virtually no TVs have it. It's a shame, but that's reality. It would also be nice if every car on the market had 12 airbags and the stability / traction control of an Audi, but, again, it would be expensive.

As for the white wash stuff, I doubt anywhere near 5% of people ever use that feature. Improving it won't sell anymore TVs, even though it's a good idea.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #3 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 03:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Almost all plasmas have a decent AR filter.

Gorilla Glass is expensive enough and the benefits clearly perceived as small enough in the market that virtually no TVs have it. It's a shame, but that's reality. It would also be nice if every car on the market had 12 airbags and the stability / traction control of an Audi, but, again, it would be expensive.

As for the white wash stuff, I doubt anywhere near 5% of people ever use that feature. Improving it won't sell anymore TVs, even though it's a good idea.

As for ar filters, i would say it's really only a feature on midlevel (sammy 6500 and up and panny st and up). The rest are mirrors.
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post #4 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 03:43 PM
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I vote AR filters on every damn plasma sold. For example the guys at my office looking for new tv's, I'd consider them j6p consumers, the reflective screens on plasma's are a real turn off for them. It's to bad the ar filters are really only seen on the upper mid range and higher models.

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post #5 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by robertw11 View Post

I vote AR filters on every damn plasma sold. For example the guys at my office looking for new tv's, I'd consider them j6p consumers, the reflective screens on plasma's are a real turn off for them. It's to bad the ar filters are really only seen on the upper mid range and higher models.

The irony is the cheap lcds have matte screens, which do the best job with diffusing light. I believe that the "success" of lcds has to do in part with the irony tht the crap lcds with matte screens thrive in brightly lit walls at best buy or costco.
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post #6 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 06:12 PM
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LCD is more prone to detrimental damage from thrown objects. A plasma can take quite a licking while LCD can be damaged with mild impact on the screen.
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post #7 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Gorilla Glass is expensive enough and the benefits clearly perceived as small enough in the market that virtually no TVs have it.

Believe it only appeared in sonys this year...in other words it's a relatively new "feature"
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post #8 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 07:22 PM
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To my eyes the "glossy" screens produce a better image than the cloudy "anti-glare" screens.

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
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post #9 of 34 Old 01-28-2012, 08:02 PM
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Almost every single high-end LCD is a mirror. Literally.

You can actually do hair and makeup (if you're into such a thing) in most LCDs sold from Samsung. Other brands are not much better (or better at all?).

Cheap plasmas sell on cheapness; better plasmas have AR filters. (And by better, I mean most everything in the store.)

This is not a real issue.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #10 of 34 Old 01-29-2012, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

The irony is the cheap lcds have matte screens, which do the best job with diffusing light. I believe that the "success" of lcds has to do in part with the irony tht the crap lcds with matte screens thrive in brightly lit walls at best buy or costco.

They did try to have matte Plasmas in 2008 or something. It's ok if you've never seen it because it was a disaster. Think matte with 6 lumens / watt in bright showroom.

Plasma thrives on contrast. And that is without matte screen. That's why Apple has been glossy.

The irony is that LED backlit LCD started to have glossy screens (vs usually matte for CCFL) as they became bright enough in showrooms, and at the same time show off contrast. And people thought that LED backlit is better than CCFL backlit, so they can charge premium. That's marketing for you.
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post #11 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 10:14 AM
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In my opinion, a maniacal toddler is far more likely to damage an LCD than a plasma. I have seen first hand what happens when some kid takes a sharp object and starts rubbing it back and forth across the screen like it's a crayon on a piece of paper... it leaves permanent etches in the image, like an etch-a-sketch.. it basically destroys it.

They do make after market screen protectors for both LCD and Plasma.....
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post #12 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 10:26 AM
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Gorilla Glass would be nice, but it's not an important enough feature in plasmas to push sales. I would easily trust an object hitting the screen of a PDP over an LCD any day. Plasmas can take a much larger hit than LCDs without breaking.

As for matte finish LCDs vs the glossy samsung coined "Ultra Clear Panel" the reason they went to the glossy screen is for a sharper clearer picture. Matte finish LCDs do the best job of reducing glare because they diffuse light the hits the screen. The problem about this method though is that light being emitted from the screen also gets slightly diffused and therefore softens the image slightly. Glossy screens do not diffuse light at all hitting the screen or emitting from the screen so you'll get a sharper picture with the trade off of glare.

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post #13 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 12:54 PM
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Panasonic had Gorilla Glass 4 years or so ago--remember the swinging steel ball demo on YouTube? I think they abandonned it because of reflections or refraction? Sonys with GG actually have the glass bonded to the front of the lcd panel.

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post #14 of 34 Old 01-30-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

Panasonic had Gorilla Glass 4 years or so ago--remember the swinging steel ball demo on YouTube? I think they abandonned it because of reflections or refraction? Sonys with GG actually have the glass bonded to the front of the lcd panel.

There's actually a resin layer in between the GG and the front of the LCD panel on the Sony. This has something to do with mitigating ambient / handling glare / something along those lines. It's basically a sandwich.

Anyway, Gorilla Glass is really cool. It's not going to help plasmas sell in much greater numbers however.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #15 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Re the matte discussion

My suggestion was to put the black filter on the line up all the way down. Decent light filters that preserve blacks in ambient lighting are really reserved to higher end plasmas. The filter itself cant be that expensive...
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post #16 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Re the matte discussion

My suggestion was to put the black filter on the line up all the way down. Decent light filters that preserve blacks in ambient lighting are really reserved to higher end plasmas. The filter itself cant be that expensive...

Even the Panasonic ST series for 2012 has the same filter from the 2011 VT series. Again, this is "done" on your to-do list.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #17 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Even the Panasonic ST series for 2012 has the same filter from the 2011 VT series. Again, this is "done" on your to-do list.

My suggestion would be to put this filter on the s, x, and c series too
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post #18 of 34 Old 01-31-2012, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

My suggestion would be to put this filter on the s, x, and c series too

Most of those are gone in 2012 from what I understand. There is only a UT (I believe is what it's called) below the ST. The cheaper units are not failing to sell due to lack of advanced feature. Quite the contrary, it's the one area where plasma outsells LCD due to lower price:size ratios.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #19 of 34 Old 02-05-2012, 05:09 AM
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Almost every single high-end LCD is a mirror. Literally.
You can actually do hair and makeup (if you're into such a thing) in most LCDs sold from Samsung. Other brands are not much better (or better at all?).

But why is that any different than Plasmas (reflection/clarity wise) other than the technology itself?

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
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post #20 of 34 Old 02-05-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

But why is that any different than Plasmas (reflection/clarity wise) other than the technology itself?

First of all, it's quite possible that the "mirror-est" LCDs are worse than things like VT plasmas in reflectivity right now.

Second of all, and more relevant to this thread, the claim is that somehow, the reflectivity of plasmas is stopping them from selling more. Yet, LCDs are as bad (and sometimes worse) and are selling just fine. So I submit the claim is not substantiated by data.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #21 of 34 Old 02-05-2012, 01:42 PM
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Well I think AR filters serve two purposes. One is to reduce reflections and the other is to maintain color and contrast. I have a 5020FD at home and my father has a Panasonic 65PF10UK at his house and both tend to lose color and contrast during the day. Reflections are only sometimes an issue, but not often enough unless there is direct lighting on them. LCD's can over come the contrast issues better because the panel itself is black (plasmas are more grayish even when completely shut off during the day), and the brightness output is much higher. I will say, however that matte screens seem to lose contrast even worse than glossy LCD screens, just in a more diffuse way.
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post #22 of 34 Old 02-05-2012, 07:39 PM
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^^ correct that's why reflectivity is an issue for plasma yet not so much for LED LCD IN A SHOWROOM. And hence sales.
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post #23 of 34 Old 02-06-2012, 12:17 AM
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I have never done a reflection test between the two technology.

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
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post #24 of 34 Old 02-10-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

First of all, it's quite possible that the "mirror-est" LCDs are worse than things like VT plasmas in reflectivity right now.

Second of all, and more relevant to this thread, the claim is that somehow, the reflectivity of plasmas is stopping them from selling more. Yet, LCDs are as bad (and sometimes worse) and are selling just fine. So I submit the claim is not substantiated by data.

You're missing my point - cheap lcds have matte screens that diffuse light well and generally preserve blacks. Cheap plasmas have little or no ar filter. A cheap lcd looks to have better blacks and contrast in a brightly lit room like most bestbuy or wal-mart displays.
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post #25 of 34 Old 02-10-2012, 04:29 PM
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I hate the super reflective screens on many of the LCD and plasmas available today. It's one of the biggest thing thats making me keep my current 7 year old DLP tv. Mine has a matte screen that works well in my envrionment. A glossy screen would be near possible because I have a window directly behind me/I'm front of the tv. I wish matte screens were more widely available.
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post #26 of 34 Old 02-10-2012, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

You're missing my point - cheap lcds have matte screens that diffuse light well and generally preserve blacks. Cheap plasmas have little or no ar filter. A cheap lcd looks to have better blacks and contrast in a brightly lit room like most bestbuy or wal-mart displays.

Expensive LCDs don't have matte screens. Nor do mid-range ones. LCDs look better in store because of things like the color filters, which plasmas can't have period.

The nearly cheapest plasmas have some kind of AR filter at this point. Miraculous solutions to turn plasmas into in-store LCDs don't really exist. Making them look like cheap LCD when LCD manufacturers don't want their expensive-looking LCDs looking like cheap LCDs is not realistic nor, in my mind, especially relevant.

Your sentiment is in the right place. The notion that there is some solution when the vast majority of plasmas are filtered is probably just not realistic.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #27 of 34 Old 02-11-2012, 08:12 AM
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Where i live there are one or two Plasma's and fifthy up to hundred LCd's in the stores. All that people see is LCd LCd LCd. Also, there must be something wrong with Plasma since there are only a few of them.

Salesmen do not like Plasma, its kind of like a death sentence.
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post #28 of 34 Old 02-11-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Where i live there are one or two Plasma's and fifthy up to hundred LCd's in the stores. All that people see is LCd LCd LCd. Also, there must be something wrong with Plasma since there are only a few of them.

Salesmen do not like Plasma, its kind of like a death sentence.

A very, very slow death, however.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #29 of 34 Old 02-12-2012, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Where i live there are one or two Plasma's and fifthy up to hundred LCd's in the stores. All that people see is LCd LCd LCd. Also, there must be something wrong with Plasma since there are only a few of them.

Salesmen do not like Plasma, its kind of like a death sentence.

It's hard to sell them in a bright environment. It's a vicious cycle.

What J6P fail to realise is that your house is never going to be that bright. And I know what I'm saying as I live near the Equator

In short Plasma marketing (and strategic positioning) sucks (which I have been saying for years). They've lost the battle in 1080p race, and now lost the war as Panny shuts P5.
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post #30 of 34 Old 02-16-2012, 06:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

In my opinion, a maniacal toddler is far more likely to damage an LCD than a plasma. I have seen first hand what happens when some kid takes a sharp object and starts rubbing it back and forth across the screen like it's a crayon on a piece of paper... it leaves permanent etches in the image, like an etch-a-sketch.. it basically destroys it.

They do make after market screen protectors for both LCD and Plasma.....

If you spare the rod you spoil the child.
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