Is the "New" UPP a price fixing tool to save the industry ? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 03:50 PM
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Samsung has huge mindshare among consumers in the display market. I've been selling TVs for the past three years and most people come in looking for a Samsung TV specifically - their excellent advertising, industrial design, bright picture, and polished smart features make them very appealing to the average consumer - much like Apple products. Samsung is not targeting the enthusiast market with their sets, but for the person who doesn't post here or perform exhaustive research on every display available, they are some the best.

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post #32 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

Samsung has huge mindshare among consumers in the display market. I've been selling TVs for the past three years and most people come in looking for a Samsung TV specifically - their excellent advertising, industrial design, bright picture, and polished smart features make them very appealing to the average consumer - much like Apple products. Samsung is not targeting the enthusiast market with their sets, but for the person who doesn't post here or perform exhaustive research on every display available, they are some the best.



just like sony used to be...........

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post #33 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 04:40 PM
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I think it's a serious mistake to equate Samsung's mind and marketshare in TVs with the kind of influence/power Apple has in, say, phones/tablets.

People haven't been asked to overpay for Samsung TVs yet (and, really, end users aren't asked to overpay for iPhones or iPads, they are price competitive with what's comparable). If Samsung thinks people will just pay $1000 more for a TV because it's Samsung, they are in for a freight train of hurt.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #34 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 05:04 PM
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I think it's too early to tell how UPP pricing is going to influence buying habits. While even currently Samsung and Sony sets demand a small to moderate price premium over, let's say, Sharp and LG televisions, I don't think Samsung will enforce a "no sale" policy; rather I believe they will try to ensure that authorized dealers of their product have the same price across the board. Like I said, I doubt that prices will ever not budge on 2012 Samsungs, but when they do they will be the same across all retailers and channels. In 2011, for example, a 60D7000 generally carried a significant ($400+) premium over a 60" Sharp LE835, and people were comfortable paying it because of the perceived advantages and popularity of the Samsung brand.

Like I mentioned before, pricing is not the only differentiating factor - incentives like return policy, freebies, financing, etc. will likely be more relied upon as 2012 models arrive if Samsung truly won't budge on pricing. I don't think Samsung is that stupid, though - I doubt six months from now a 55ES8000 will still sit at $3800.

And for those who want to shop for the best price, I'm sure there will still be plenty of unauthorized dealers willing to sell price-protected TV sets at a significant discount. People don't seem to have much of problem buying from such dealers now (eg. East Coast TVs, etc.)

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post #35 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

just like sony used to be...........

I chuckled.
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post #36 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 10:57 AM
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The pricing plan seems like it solely benefits retailers and wholesalers.

Samsung has always had the ability to set the minimum price in that they determine the factory price. Since wholesalers and retailers each take a cut, the final price was determined by how large or small of a cut each wanted, added to the factory price.

What this pricing policy does is guarantee a certain profit for the wholsalers and/or retailers.

Higher prices in of itself means fewer total sales which means fewer factory sales. So this policy is bad for samsung and sony. The only way I can see it benefitting them is if retailers stear potential purchasers toward their products knowing they'll make a bigger profit off each sale.
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post #37 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 12:05 PM
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The policy is devastating to wholesalers, actually.

Currently, a lot of manufacturers sell through distributors (aka wholesalers) who then re-sell the product to countless small retailers who often discount heavily off MSRP/MAP. The only reason those small retailers have any sales is because of their heavy discounting. Believe me, no one is buying from Abe's of Maine for quality service.

With the changes, the little retailers on the net or the few that survive in town will no longer be allowed to use discounting and therefore, distributor volume will drop. Best Buy, it should be noted, doesn't buy through distributors, they buy from the manufacturer directly (so do Target, Costco, Sears, and most other major retailers).

Winners: Big retail chains.
Losers: Small retailers, distributors, consumers.

How is this a good idea again?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #38 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

Higher prices in of itself means fewer total sales which means fewer factory sales. So this policy is bad for samsung and sony. The only way I can see it benefitting them is if retailers stear potential purchasers toward their products knowing they'll make a bigger profit off each sale.

Without knowing their breakeven points, profit margins, sales expectations, company goals, etc, with the different pricing you cant really assume that its bad for them. im sure their assumptions is that their company will in fact be better off if things pan out like they hope.
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post #39 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by irfan View Post

Without knowing their breakeven points, profit margins, sales expectations, company goals, etc, with the different pricing you cant really assume that its bad for them. im sure their assumptions is that their company will in fact be better off if things pan out like they hope.

I'm sure they caved to brick-and-mortar retailers demanding they "do something" about "showrooming" "or else".

I'm not as convinced they actually have figured out that this is going to make them any more money; in fact, I'd be very surprised if they believe it will. What it's going to do is open the door to the Huaweis and Hisenses of the world and create a big opportunity for Vizio to get off the mat and expand its presence.

All that expensive "branded" stuff that really doesn't outperform the "second tier" stuff in the eyes of most consumers by very much is going to now look very expensive.

Honestly I can't forecast the sales numbers, but I can tell you this: As things stand, the better Samsung plasmas will largely retail for $500-1000 more than last year's models did even when just announced. That's going to significantly dent sales volume; it simply has to. And Samsung itself is getting the same price at wholesale it got last year. OK, it's one example and maybe some others aren't as bad (although I see the same thing occurring with D series LCD >> ES series LCD). Really, as the saying goes, "you do the math".

They either (a) lose sales entirely or (b) push people to lower priced, lower-margin products. How is this a win?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #40 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 05:09 PM
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Apple retail and Apple Internet is similar pricing. There's a reason why that makes sense. Brick and mortar will cave if people continue to test products there and buy Internet. That will not benefit consumers in the long run

Question is of course whether there will be sufficient brand equity for Samsung and LG and maybe Japanese to price above the Vizio and Chinese. Their strategy has to change and net result would probably that brick and mortar sells the former and Internet sells the latter.

The current model of letting market decide on prices based on manufacturer's selling price is unsustainable, because the playing field is unbalanced. Same logic with anti-dumping.
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post #41 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 05:55 PM
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Haven't the news reports shown that Samsung has lost a LOT of money? (And Sony & Panasonic for that matter.) Perhaps on CE as a whole, but especially on their HDTV lines?

If you are losing $XXX Per Unit, it may well make sense to produce fewer units, which seems to be the tactic that Panasonic is taking for 2012, and it SEEMS Logical that Samsung would plan a similar strategy.

Something that probably plays into this attempt to control output - as well as pricing - is that having large numbers of unsold inventory at the end of a model run likely results in Manufacturer's Incentives being paid to the retail outlets, thus eroding whatever "profit" that may have existed from the manufacturing process.

Even if you elect to destroy excess inventory, instead of trying to "fire sale" the panels, you still incur substantial processing costs.

Seems the manufacturers are caught in a no-win situation, and - much like the auto industry (& esp in the USA), need to go through a period of downsizing & consolidation....

Hey, it has happened Big Time in the Computer Industry!
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post #42 of 91 Old 03-08-2012, 10:34 PM
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Samsung seems to be planning to sell more units, not fewer. So your theory, while sound on some levels, doesn't jibe with what's going on Dierkdr. Also, TV manufacturers don't need to crush/landfill old product; it doesn't go obsolete when a new model ships. That kind of stuff is incredibly rare these days anyway.

Spec, I tend to agree that Samsung, et al. might disappear from the internet, well at least its discount side. I just don't know that this strategy is a net win.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #43 of 91 Old 03-09-2012, 03:53 AM
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Sony and Samsung can enforce UPP all they want. I bet this will put Sony in more of a bind because the prices will remain high and other tv makers like LG, Toshiba, and panasonic will be outselling them with cheaper and possibky better TV's. While UPP does even the playing field between B & M stores and Online retailers, there is no way I will change Amazon and iys awesome ease of use and great return policy. At least I wont be getting harassed by sales persons : "Do you have cable in your house? ". Rolleyes
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post #44 of 91 Old 03-09-2012, 05:21 AM
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If you are losing $XXX Per Unit, it may well make sense to produce fewer units, which seems to be the tactic that Panasonic is taking for 2012, and it SEEMS Logical that Samsung would plan a similar strategy.

TVs are like cars. For a $2,000 msrp TV, The first unit off the assembly line costs you $100 million. Every one after that cost you $800.

You have to separate out fixed costs from unit costs. Manufacturing an extra TV doesn't require hiring anyone extra or paying more in advertising. The only cost is for parts and shipping.

The only way to make money is through a large volume of sales.

If their plan is to sell fewer units at a higher cost than their competitors, it will fail unless they plan on downsizing across the board. Layoffs, cutbacks on advertising, shuddering factories, etc... .
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post #45 of 91 Old 03-09-2012, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverickaim9 View Post

Sony and Samsung can enforce UPP all they want. I bet this will put Sony in more of a bind because the prices will remain high and other tv makers like LG, Toshiba, and panasonic will be outselling them with cheaper and possibky better TV's. While UPP does even the playing field between B & M stores and Online retailers, there is no way I will change Amazon and iys awesome ease of use and great return policy. At least I wont be getting harassed by sales persons : "Do you have cable in your house? ". Rolleyes

Unless they're tying to sell you cable (or satellite) it's called a "discovery question". It's asked to find out if the customer already has access to HD source material which is necessary to get decent performance out of the set in the interest of customer satisfaction. Sorry if this offends you.

A very large percentage of customers are getting their first HD set and are unaware of the necessity of upgrading their cable or sat service to HD.

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post #46 of 91 Old 03-09-2012, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post

Unless they're tying to sell you cable (or satellite) it's called a "discovery question". It's asked to find out if the customer already has access to HD source material which is necessary to get decent performance out of the set in the interest of customer satisfaction. Sorry if this offends you.

A very large percentage of customers are getting their first HD set and are unaware of the necessity of upgrading their cable or sat service to HD.

I agree it's only a sales qualifier question ,At least the Guy asked it !

You be surprised how many salesmen could care less ,
sale @ any cost type of guy


I feel that the U P P is only gonna hurt sales & drive prices higher making thing even worse for customers, B&M sales,Sony ,Samsung, all most every one but Costco,Amazon,Sears they will make out just fine as they will be able to get the best price outta Sony & Samsung due to huge volume buys that will force the MFGer's to cut them a better price .
It would seem that Sony & Sammy are cutting their own throats with this .

Mike

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post #47 of 91 Old 03-10-2012, 07:32 AM
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@steve s, I didn't specify, my mistake. What I'm referring to is specifically at BB stores, besides their sales person, they also have time Warner cable representatives ( at least in my area) going around trying to enroll people. I find this extremely annoying and unnecessary. Even the sales person at BB don't know half the stuff that comes out of their mouth, they are just repeating what they where told to say during training. Example? And this is no joke, a customer ask, what does Smart TV means ( customer asking about a Samsung un46d6420) ? Response: " it means you can hook up a lot of things to it". Seriously??
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post #48 of 91 Old 03-10-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverickaim9 View Post

@steve s, I didn't specify, my mistake. What I'm referring to is specifically at BB stores, besides their sales person, they also have time Warner cable representatives ( at least in my area) going around trying to enroll people. I find this extremely annoying and unnecessary. Even the sales person at BB don't know half the stuff that comes out of their mouth, they are just repeating what they where told to say during training. Example? And this is no joke, a customer ask, what does Smart TV means ( customer asking about a Samsung un46d6420) ? Response: " it means you can hook up a lot of things to it". Seriously??

My apologies. I share your distaste for those cable/sat reps. Funny how they all claim that competing services only deliver 720p!

It's an unfortunate fact that many associates (and not just at BB--some of my own co-workers come to mind) are selling tvs because they don't want to flip burgers. My own favorite story is a dept. manager urging a customer to buy the Protection Agreement. The mgr. told the customer the plan would pay for itself if the hard drive in the TV failed.

Steve S.
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post #49 of 91 Old 03-10-2012, 12:11 PM
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Where DO you pull this pricing stuff from?

Best Buy base price TODAY

Samsung UN55ES8000F $3,749.99
Samsung UN55D8000Y $3,599.99

Not even $200

Oh wait, the brand new UN55ES8000F is already on sale for $3,399.99 at best buy.

Anyone that thinks the Plasma's will be much different and $500 to $1000 more are pulling prices from thin air or showing thier panasonic fanboyism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm sure they caved to brick-and-mortar retailers demanding they "do something" about "showrooming" "or else".

I'm not as convinced they actually have figured out that this is going to make them any more money; in fact, I'd be very surprised if they believe it will. What it's going to do is open the door to the Huaweis and Hisenses of the world and create a big opportunity for Vizio to get off the mat and expand its presence.

All that expensive "branded" stuff that really doesn't outperform the "second tier" stuff in the eyes of most consumers by very much is going to now look very expensive.

Honestly I can't forecast the sales numbers, but I can tell you this: As things stand, the better Samsung plasmas will largely retail for $500-1000 more than last year's models did even when just announced. That's going to significantly dent sales volume; it simply has to. And Samsung itself is getting the same price at wholesale it got last year. OK, it's one example and maybe some others aren't as bad (although I see the same thing occurring with D series LCD >> ES series LCD). Really, as the saying goes, "you do the math".

They either (a) lose sales entirely or (b) push people to lower priced, lower-margin products. How is this a win?


buytme
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post #50 of 91 Old 03-15-2012, 06:57 PM
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More people today are willing to pay full price for things and for Samsung and Sony to ignore that is dangerous. Once people become aware of their price fixing, I doubt their sales will remain as high as they expect.

I won't be handing those companies one cent and I will be spreading the word. I also hope that this practice is taken to court since it smells of collusion.

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post #51 of 91 Old 03-15-2012, 07:44 PM
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The new Samsung UN55ES8000 is currently selling for $2899.00 on Amazon. This is 23% off of the $3749.00 MSRP. My understanding is that the UPP is somewhere around 2% discount... not 23%.

Did Samsung abort this plan? Or is Amazon simply ignoring the new UPP (how can Samsung say "no" to Amazon?)?

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post #52 of 91 Old 03-15-2012, 08:00 PM
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Maybe they've delayed until April 1st, along with Sony?.

And the MAP for the UN55ES8000 is $3399. From what I understand that is the bottom price.

Do you have a different source for Samsung's MAP? http://hdguru.com/samsung-2012-hdtv-...349/#more-7349

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post #53 of 91 Old 03-15-2012, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Maybe they've delayed until April 1st, along with Sony?.

And the MAP for the UN55ES8000 is $3399. From what I understand that is the bottom price.

Do you have a different source for Samsung's MAP? http://hdguru.com/samsung-2012-hdtv-...349/#more-7349

Yeah, the MAP/UPP appears lower than the completely fake MSRP.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #54 of 91 Old 03-15-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Maybe they've delayed until April 1st, along with Sony?.

And the MAP for the UN55ES8000 is $3399. From what I understand that is the bottom price.

Do you have a different source for Samsung's MAP? http://hdguru.com/samsung-2012-hdtv-...349/#more-7349

No, I apologize- I think you're correct.

I didn't realize that Sony's wasn't going in place until April 1st. If Samsung's is the same, that would mean that the time to buy is now.

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post #55 of 91 Old 03-15-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

No, I apologize- I think you're correct.

I didn't realize that Sony's wasn't going in place until April 1st. If Samsung's is the same, that would mean that the time to buy is now.

Oh, no apology necessary and yes you are right- the time to buy is now, if one just must have a Samsung.

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post #56 of 91 Old 03-16-2012, 04:05 AM
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I hope this UPP don't last long. Sales goal won't be met for those two. Lg, Panasonic , and even Toshiba are pumping out nice sets at a way better price. Samsung and Sony must have better quality and less screen issues to stand above the rest in order for the prices to be justified and I don't think this is the case. They are just riding on top of their names.
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post #57 of 91 Old 03-16-2012, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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The more press this issue gets the better for Display buyers !

Mike

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post #58 of 91 Old 03-16-2012, 10:54 AM
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Samsung Dealers Drop HDTV Prices on 2012 ES Models

http://hdguru.com/

"Just two weeks after Samsung began its one selling price for all dealers unilateral pricing program (UPP), seller are passing along new instant rebates of up to $501 off its 2012 ES line of edge lit LED LCDs that are now in stock at Amazon and others...........................
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post #59 of 91 Old 03-16-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Samsung Dealers Drop HDTV Prices on 2012 ES Models

http://hdguru.com/

"Just two weeks after Samsung began its “one selling price for all dealers” unilateral pricing program (UPP), seller are passing along new “instant rebates” of up to $501 off its 2012 ES line of edge lit LED LCDs that are now in stock at Amazon and others...........................

thx greenland. fwiw, in relation to hdguru's question about how long the current discounts might last, i recall reading at abt that their current discount for the 55inch model (maybe others as well) should expire at the end of the month.

that said, etailers and retailers applied periodic rebates to other samsung models i purchased in the past. so, that might be the continuing m.o.
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post #60 of 91 Old 03-17-2012, 04:07 PM
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Local ad (newspaper insert) for Paul's TV quotes 55" UN55ES8000 at $500 off list; 46" at $400 off list).

So much for UPP??

Same ad shows a 60" EH6000 - & the 55" model - both at just $200 off list (but starting from MUCH lower base prices!), while a 55" D8000 is running $1499 below quoted list price....
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