Is the "New" UPP a price fixing tool to save the industry ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 91 Old 02-28-2012, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony & Sammy are now forcing this on the Display market .........

http://hdguru.com/sony-joins-samsung...510/#more-7510

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post #2 of 91 Old 02-28-2012, 12:19 PM
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Maybe more so to save shop owners from internet direct sellers.
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post #3 of 91 Old 02-28-2012, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Plus force prices up on premium displays .........

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post #4 of 91 Old 02-28-2012, 02:26 PM
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Definitely will not work on the lower to midrange/high volume stuff. There is just to much competition and Costco and Sam's would not go along with it for long. On premium low volume lines where there is not much alternative or on unique products like Ipad and such, UPP and MAPs could be enforced and work. Keeping the prices artificially high.
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post #5 of 91 Old 02-28-2012, 06:02 PM
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this is a great idea to protect the industry. there isn't a retailer out there that won't agree to this! it also puts more pressure on the manufacturer to insure their product quality and value.

this is a win win for the industry and consumer as well. it works in so many industries already.
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post #6 of 91 Old 03-04-2012, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottpez View Post

this is a great idea to protect the industry. there isn't a retailer out there that won't agree to this! it also puts more pressure on the manufacturer to insure their product quality and value.

this is a win win for the industry and consumer as well. it works in so many industries already.

lol its horrible for the consumer. you obviously dont understand quantity supplied/quantity demanded.
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post #7 of 91 Old 03-04-2012, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottpez View Post

this is a great idea to protect the industry. there isn't a retailer out there that won't agree to this! it also puts more pressure on the manufacturer to insure their product quality and value.

this is a win win for the industry and consumer as well. it works in so many industries already.

I don't see how that's a win for the consumer at all . Just lets the MFGer's set prices artificiality High on premium displays.

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post #8 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 05:46 AM
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I think it's bad for the consumer in terms of prices only. over half of us walk into a retailer to demo sets get opinions etc. then walk out and buy online. We love the convenience of being able to walk into a store and not having to wait for shipping and/or customer service. fact is that cost more.
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post #9 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 06:35 AM
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I thought price fixing was against the law.
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post #10 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I thought price fixing was against the law.

Evidently it's legal in the US.
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post #11 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 07:07 AM
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post #12 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 11:39 AM
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Bose, Apple, game consoles, all are sold with fixed prices.

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post #13 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 11:48 AM
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This isn't the classic case of 'price fixing'.

Price fixing in the illegal way would be competitors working together to agree to a minimum price.

For instance if LG Samsung and Panasonic where to agree "none of us will sell a 55" top model Plasma for less then $3k", that would be price fixing.

Setting a minimum price any one manufacturer decides to sell for isn't really against the law, it's an agreement to sell between seller and distributor (or manufacturer).

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Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I thought price fixing was against the law.


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post #14 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I thought price fixing was against the law.

It was until about 2007 in the U.S., when the Dr. Miles case was ruled on by the Supreme Court and it was determined that retail price maintenance agreements were no longer per se illegal, but had to be judged accordingly. Prior to that, there had been a slow erosion of laws established in the Depression to protect small retailers from the price cutting tactics of large ones (similar to what we have today but replace small and large with brick-and-mortar and internet). (EDIT: This post mischaracterizes what happened in 2007 as that was the year Dr. Miles was overturned, not ruled upon. Therefore this post is misleading... See this one: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21742958 for more detail)

Today, a company can argue that it's retail price maintenance serves a purpose -- for example making it possible for Best Buy to justify carrying its products would be a legitimate purpose.

Anyway, enough history. Bottom line, there are no longer many rules and so these practices will be able to be instituted. However, if too many manufacturers look to punish rule breakers, I suspect you'll see a backlash with threats of new legislation and / or antitrust action.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #15 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

Sony & Sammy are now forcing this on the Display market .........

http://hdguru.com/sony-joins-samsung...510/#more-7510


What it will probably accomplish is the exact opposite of what Samsung and Sony hope it will do. They are probably handing Chinese manufacturers a golden opportunity to take a lot of their market share away from them, by making it easier for them to under price them.
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post #16 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 02:28 PM
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This type of move never works. Somewhere down the line manufacture A will have too much product in the pipe line and will start the domino's falling. Their intentions may be genuine but when you have to answer to the stock holders about declining profits all bets are off.
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post #17 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs View Post

I thought price fixing was against the law.

It's not the type of 'price fixing' that is illegal. Saturn used a set price policy for it's cars. It would be illegal if Sony and Samsung got together and jointly decided what prices each would charge.
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post #18 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

It's not the type of 'price fixing' that is illegal. Saturn used a set price policy for it's cars. It would be illegal if Sony and Samsung got together and jointly decided what prices each would charge.

That would still not be illegal as there is competition in the market. They essentially do that now.

I have to think LG is going to be the big winner in this one. Sony is pretty much done making TVs a 900m loss this year and 300m the year before buying panels from Samsung.

Samsung has a lot of high end competition from Sharp and Panny so they will price fix there but it won't help them that much.

LG will probably just gobble up most of med-high TVs leaving the Chinese to get the scraps at the bottom.

Oled is probably going to move a lot in the next 5 years as well. Can't help but think Samsung has lost it on this one maybe all the lawsuits are finally getting to them.
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post #19 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 08:30 PM
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This falls in the same vein as polices initiated when I was in the car audio industry. As the Regional Sales Manager for a car audio franchise, I acted as a liaison between the manufacturers & authorized dealers. Part of my duties was to actively enforce exclusivity agreements. This included enforcement of MAP's. Dealers caught discounting particularly higher end products like Pioneer Ellite, Alpine and Eclipse were issued a warning. If the practice continued they would lose the line.


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post #20 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

This type of move never works. Somewhere down the line manufacture A will have too much product in the pipe line and will start the domino's falling. Their intentions may be genuine but when you have to answer to the stock holders about declining profits all bets are off.

they could just authorize a sale across the board then. Tempurpedic, Apple, Bose all do it, they are all pretty healthy.
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post #21 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 09:40 PM
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Samsung and Sony are looking out for themselves and their dealers. Samsung is already the Apple of the display market and most people are probably willing to pay a premium for their products. Sure, there will probably still be sales, but only ones that are vendor-mandated that make the price the same whether you buy at Sears, Best Buy, Amazon, etc.

Retailers may be able to differentiate themselves like they do for existing price-protected products by offering free gift card with purchase of an ES8000 or something.

As someone who sells TVs for a living, I can honestly sort of appreciate this move. It gets tiring when people come in, pick my brain about a TV, mess with our display unit, and then ask me to match an outrageous internet price that is near or below cost. A TV is like anything else you buy - a dealer who sells it with razor-thin margins can't stay afloat.

Looking through BB employee news there is mention of PNXXE8000 sets coming in mid-March, and reminds employees that due to new pricing policies from Samsung, price overriding and discounting of any of these sets is NOT allowed.

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post #22 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irfan View Post

they could just authorize a sale across the board then. Tempurpedic, Apple, Bose all do it, they are all pretty healthy.

In those markets you don't generally see different versions/models of the same technology plus companies like Tempurpedic do not have to be concerned with moving last years stock to be replaced by this years better product. Bose and Apple generally remain static for several years before offering something radically new, except for Apples ipad/notebook line. I think the real reason for this new strategy is to cut back production because they over estimated the demand for product leading to this desperate grasp at maintaining overall profits by reducing their work force. Some plants are already set to close doors.
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post #23 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 09:48 PM
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Well, quite honestly the ONLY reason I'd buy anything from Best Buy is price. I'm intelligent enough to do my own research, and not rely on some handbook trained salesperson who tries to sell to $100 HDMI cables. Sorry but that is my impression of the folks at BB.

If Sony and Samsung fix the prices on their higher end stuff it had damn well walk on water if they even want me to consider it. There are far too many options out there if they price themselves out of the market.
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post #24 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irfan View Post

they could just authorize a sale across the board then. Tempurpedic, Apple, Bose all do it, they are all pretty healthy.

Having sales will not create better profit margins, and that is the goal. Maybe it will work for the higher end 3D models but I doubt it. With Sharp pumping out 70" models for under $2K, and 80"ers for under $3500 it looks like survival of the fittest. This new strategy is a desperate grasp by some companies to maintain a status quo that will never be the same. As the price for OLED starts to come down and China ramps up production I doubt they will care what Sony and Toshiba, and Panasonic etc think. LCD and plasma will soon go the way of DLP and LCOS.
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post #25 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

It's not the type of 'price fixing' that is illegal. Saturn used a set price policy for it's cars. It would be illegal if Sony and Samsung got together and jointly decided what prices each would charge.

That's correct. And, as I said, until somewhat recently, the thing these guys are doing individually was also illegal. It just no longer is.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #26 of 91 Old 03-05-2012, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt L View Post

Well, quite honestly the ONLY reason I'd buy anything from Best Buy is price. I'm intelligent enough to do my own research, and not rely on some handbook trained salesperson who tries to sell to $100 HDMI cables. Sorry but that is my impression of the folks at BB.


Lol. no offense taken. BB just tries to focus on items that are margin-rich. With the current state of things they might make as much selling that single HDMI cable as they do selling that TV. The best thing to do is realize that they probably really don't care all that much and just offering it out of compliance, and politely say no. I think it's understandable to be annoyed by salespeople, but you have to understand that's it's their job to sell, not to be clerks and ring you out without offering anything.

As far as training, there's really no handbook on product at BB stores. There are useless e-learnings that nobody ever takes. I enjoy reading about HT as it is a hobby and get all my info from places like AVS.

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post #27 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 07:54 AM
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Dr Miles was superseded in Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey v. United States.

Just because someone tried to use Dr Miles in a case and it was overturned doesn't mean it was being enforced since 1911 in situations like this Samsung case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It was until about 2007 in the U.S., when the Dr. Miles case was ruled on by the Supreme Court and it was determined that retail price maintenance agreements were no longer per se illegal, but had to be judged accordingly. Prior to that, there had been a slow erosion of laws established in the Depression to protect small retailers from the price cutting tactics of large ones (similar to what we have today but replace small and large with brick-and-mortar and internet).

Today, a company can argue that it's retail price maintenance serves a purpose -- for example making it possible for Best Buy to justify carrying its products would be a legitimate purpose.

Anyway, enough history. Bottom line, there are no longer many rules and so these practices will be able to be instituted. However, if too many manufacturers look to punish rule breakers, I suspect you'll see a backlash with threats of new legislation and / or antitrust action.


buytme
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post #28 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

Dr Miles was superseded in Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey v. United States.

Just because someone tried to use Dr Miles in a case and it was overturned doesn't mean it was being enforced since 1911 in situations like this Samsung case.

Behold, you have contributed something however slight!

It's true Dr. Miles wasn't the only relevant RPM case at the time. What happened in 2007 -- and this is where my above post is at best misleading, and really written wrong -- is that Dr. Miles was explicitly overturned by Leegin Creative Leather Products. The key is that Leegin allowed for RPM agreements to be established without being per se illegal and all such agreements would not be looked at under the "rule of reason" standard.

Anyway, the fact is I posted above in a way that doesn't fully edify, our resident troll spent some of his time doing his trolling, for a change he caught an actual error (albeit slight), and it is now corrected by this post.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #29 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 01:55 PM
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I think Rogo should set all the prices!
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post #30 of 91 Old 03-06-2012, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

Samsung and Sony are looking out for themselves and their dealers. Samsung is already the Apple of the display market and most people are probably willing to pay a premium for their products. Sure, there will probably still be sales, but only ones that are vendor-mandated that make the price the same whether you buy at Sears, Best Buy, Amazon, etc.

Retailers may be able to differentiate themselves like they do for existing price-protected products by offering free gift card with purchase of an ES8000 or something.

As someone who sells TVs for a living, I can honestly sort of appreciate this move. It gets tiring when people come in, pick my brain about a TV, mess with our display unit, and then ask me to match an outrageous internet price that is near or below cost. A TV is like anything else you buy - a dealer who sells it with razor-thin margins can't stay afloat.

Looking through BB employee news there is mention of PNXXE8000 sets coming in mid-March, and reminds employees that due to new pricing policies from Samsung, price overriding and discounting of any of these sets is NOT allowed.

samsung id the apple of the display market?

haven't heard that before and based on my knowledge, i don't think that's accurate.

what samsung display has the cachet of an ipad or iphone?

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