State of the Kuro: where the 9G is being surpassed - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, the never-ending fight against the king is still on. However I recall about the 9Gs being surpassed recently in some fields.

Can someone confirm eventually, specifying what TV set (brand/model) does the job better than Kuros?

Black levels: unmatched (may be on par with Panny/Sammy 2012?)
Contrast: unmatched
Color decoding: Samsung D8000???
Motion Sharpness: ???
Overall picture: unmatched
blutarsky is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 01:41 AM
Member
 
$$Buck-Naked$$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Ok, the never-ending fight against the king is still on. However I recall about the 9Gs being surpassed recently in some fields.

Can someone confirm eventually, specifying what TV set (brand/model) does the job better than Kuros?

Black levels: unmatched (may be on par with Panny/Sammy 2012?)
Contrast: unmatched
Color decoding: Samsung D8000???
Motion Sharpness: ???
Overall picture: unmatched

Black levels: the Sharp Elite is the daddy @0,0004ft with the Kuro Elite 9,5G @0,0005ft slightly behind. The best Panasonics (ST50-VT50) are @0,0026ft but there's no tint at all to the black levels on mine ST50 which is a first outside of OLED and CRT technology.
Contrast: clearly the Sharp Elite with better MLL and peak whites on an ANSI patern. The Kuro 9,5G is second and Kuro 9G third.
Color decoding: clearly the D8000.
Motion Sharpness: Samsung Plasma's without question. Panasonic is doing their best to come close. The Kuro's are terrible by comparison.
Overall picture: allround the Kuro still is one of the best pictures because it does everything very well whereas the Samsungs are still bad at black level and dynamic range (contrast). The Panasonics are still behind the Kuro 9G and 9,5G in terms of black level and dynamic range but much closer than Samsung while Samsung has better color decoding and better motion.

Technically the LG and Samsung OLED should rank 1 together in every department above once they launch.
$$Buck-Naked$$ is offline  
post #3 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 01:45 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Questions:

- Did you leave out intentionally Panny's VX300 as for being targeting a professional market?

- Did you include Panny & Sammy 2012 plasmas in your evaluation?


Edit: I see now the VT50 in your post!!
blutarsky is offline  
post #4 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 02:42 AM
Member
 
$$Buck-Naked$$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Questions:

- Did you leave out intentionally Panny's VX300 as for being targeting a professional market?

- Did you include Panny & Sammy 2012 plasmas in your evaluation?


Edit: I see now the VT50 in your post!!

I haven't seen the VX300 only the VX200 which was pretty great but by eye you can't really say much. However I'm purely comparing consumer displays as comparing professional displays with consumer displays is useless as the focus is entirely different.

I haven't seen the Samsung 2012 Plasma's or LCD's for that matter so can't make any judgement yet. I'm sure the VE Shoot-out will do a great job there. I also haven't seen the VT50 only the GT50 and ST50.
$$Buck-Naked$$ is offline  
post #5 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 03:23 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post

Black levels: the Sharp Elite is the daddy @0,0004ft with the Kuro Elite 9,5G @0,0005ft slightly behind. The best Panasonics (ST50-VT50) are @0,0026ft

Can human eye perceive differences between 0,0005ft and @0,0026ft? What is the lower human eye limit? (According to this could be down to 0.000 005 ????)
blutarsky is offline  
post #6 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 04:32 AM
Member
 
$$Buck-Naked$$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Can human eye perceive differences between 0,0005ft and @0,0026ft? What is the lower human eye limit? (According to this could be down to 0.000 005 ????)

That depends on the lighting conditions and picture brightness. In a room with bias lighting you won't see any difference between 0,0005ft and 0,0026ft. Both will appear very dark. In a dark room you will notice a difference between 0,0005ft and 0,0026ft. The higher brightness and untinted black levels of the 2012 Panasonic Plasma's make their black levels and dynamic range seem higher than they actually are and because of that the black levels and dynamic range look very close. I think you might only tell the difference in a dark room with the TVs next to each other.

In a completely dark room your eyes will problably be able to tell the difference all the way to something like 0.00001ft on a full 0 IRE patern but with an ANSI patern not so much.
$$Buck-Naked$$ is offline  
post #7 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 04:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by $$Buck-Naked$$ View Post


That depends on the lighting conditions and picture brightness. In a room with bias lighting you won't see any difference between 0,0005ft and 0,0026ft. Both will appear very dark. In a dark room you will notice a difference between 0,0005ft and 0,0026ft. The higher brightness and untinted black levels of the 2012 Panasonic Plasma's make their black levels and dynamic range seem higher than they actually are and because of that the black levels and dynamic range look very close. I think you might only tell the difference in a dark room with the TVs next to each other.

In a completely dark room your eyes will problably be able to tell the difference all the way to something like 0.00001ft on a full 0 IRE patern but with an ANSI patern not so much.

Why do you continue to repeat the word "untinted"? There is no such thing as untinted 1-5% stimuli grayscales.
D-Nice is offline  
post #8 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 04:46 AM
AVS Special Member
 
6SpeedTA95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tulsa area
Posts: 2,320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
With the GT50 coming in at 5000:1+ contrast ratio doesn't that put it on par with the 9G KURO's?

Also D-Nice was telling me at some point about dynamic range and real world contrast ratios at 20 or 30% stimulus being far more important than contrast ratio's like ANSI which makes sense. So I would think the 2012 Panasonics with their increased brightness output may be on par with the 9 or 9.5G's for contrast and dynamic range?

In a dark room the KURO is probably still king but in my living room for 90% of material? I just don't know. Maybe ChadB or D-Nice can jump in and provide some more data?
6SpeedTA95 is offline  
post #9 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 04:53 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

With the GT50 coming in at 5000:1+ contrast ratio doesn't that put it on par with the 9G KURO's?

Not even close.

Quote:
So I would think the 2012 Panasonics with their increased brightness output may be on par with the 9 or 9.5G's for contrast and dynamic range?

The increased brightness fools the eye into perceiving blacker blacks. Its the same phenomenon you get with backlighting.

Quote:
In a dark room the KURO is probably still king but in my living room for 90% of material? I just don't know. Maybe ChadB or D-Nice can jump in and provide some more data?

If you put a 2012 Panasonic in the dark room right beside a 2nd Gen Kuro (aka 9G Pioneer), you will easily see the difference in black level. You will also see the difference in low lighting depending on where the lighting is in the room compared to the display.
D-Nice is offline  
post #10 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 05:35 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

If you put a 2012 Panasonic in the dark room right beside a 2nd Gen Kuro (aka 9G Pioneer), you will easily see the difference in black level. You will also see the difference in low lighting depending on where the lighting is in the room compared to the display.

So blacks still unmatched.....
blutarsky is offline  
post #11 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 05:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

So blacks still unmatched.....

If the question is do the MLL of the 2012 Panasonics equal or surpass the 2nd gen Kuro, the answer would be no.
D-Nice is offline  
post #12 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
D-Nice, if you were to choose between a Kuro 9,5G and the VT50 which one would you choose and why, regardless the price?
blutarsky is offline  
post #13 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:00 AM
Senior Member
 
dzt41j's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 292
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Why do these TV's keep coming up since you can't buy them, and since they are so great why hasn't anyone copied their electronics and re-introduced them?
dzt41j is offline  
post #14 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

D-Nice, if you were to choose between a Kuro 9,5G and the VT50 which one would you choose and why, regardless the price?

Why would it matter what I would choose? I can't spend your money.
D-Nice is offline  
post #15 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:01 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by dzt41j View Post

Why do these TV's keep coming up since you can't buy them, and since they are so great why hasn't anyone copied their electronics and re-introduced them?

Because you the consumer care more about gidgets and widgets than you do for PQ.
D-Nice is offline  
post #16 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Why would it matter what I would choose? I can't spend your money.

Because you are un-biased and because knowledge and experience are on your side and you deserve respect and consideration for this!

I believe that at a certain point people will continue to state that Kuros are better just because of the blacks numbers, WITHOUT considering other important factors such as overall picture quality, video processing, colors, image noise, (plus other minor frills such as 3D, online services).

I'm very curios about this and awaiting when it will happen, and when you will state "mates: the wait is over! No need to follow Kuros anymore, regardless the blacks!"
blutarsky is offline  
post #17 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:32 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
I'll answer your question theis way:


I can have any display out there yet I own 5 Kuros with zero plans to replace them with any PDP from Panasonic, Samsung or LG... or any LED LCD currently on the market. Another individual's wallet and/or priorites can and will be different than mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Because you are un-biased and because knowledge and experience are on your side and you deserve respect and consideration for this!

I believe that at a certain point people will continue to state that Kuros are better just because of the blacks numbers, WITHOUT considering other important factors such as overall picture quality, video processing, colors, image noise, (plus other minor frills such as 3D, online services).

I'm very curios about this and awaiting when it will happen, and when you will state "mates: the wait is over! No need to follow Kuros anymore, regardless the blacks!"

D-Nice is offline  
post #18 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I translate this in: "At the moment I don't see any good reason to switch from Kuros to latest TV panels"; this turns into "in my opinion, Kuros are overall still the best panels"
blutarsky is offline  
post #19 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 07:23 AM
Member
 
Heartquake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Can someone correct me? I didn't make a deep search on this but what I understand is Pio & NEC have invented almost everything to make a better plasma TV than Kuro and licensed them. That's why Panasonic engineer team's hands are tied. Even though they were transferred from Pioneer.

I don't think money and production costs are the issue. Otherwise VX200-300 would be superior to Kuro.
Heartquake is offline  
post #20 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 07:48 AM
Senior Member
 
dzt41j's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NY
Posts: 292
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Somebody doesn't seem to be in a very good mood today!
dzt41j is offline  
post #21 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 08:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,934
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

I translate this in: "At the moment I don't see any good reason to switch from Kuros to latest TV panels"; this turns into "in my opinion, Kuros are overall still the best panels"

Nice translation
D-Nice is offline  
post #22 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 10:04 AM
Member
 
$$Buck-Naked$$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 101
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartquake View Post

Can someone correct me? I didn't make a deep search on this but what I understand is Pio & NEC have invented almost everything to make a better plasma TV than Kuro and licensed them. That's why Panasonic engineer team's hands are tied. Even though they were transferred from Pioneer.

I don't think money and production costs are the issue. Otherwise VX200-300 would be superior to Kuro.

The problem is current Plasma manufacturers have to build their Plasma TV's with different materials and a much lower footprint. Also while I won't deny the Kuro 9,5G specifically is one of the best TVs to date it isn't without flaws. These are always denied or forgotten because of the pedestal the Kuro's are being put on.
$$Buck-Naked$$ is offline  
post #23 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 02:47 PM
 
vinnie97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Nunya
Posts: 11,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked: 1002
^You mean like DSE (though I think minimized on 9.5), PWM noise (dithering), phosphor trails and higher power requirements? Not everyone is bothered by those things (or can even detect them), but they are not always denied or forgotten.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Because you the consumer care more about gidgets and widgets than you do for PQ.

Ouch (truth hurts ).
vinnie97 is offline  
post #24 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 03:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
mr. wally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: land of the pumas
Posts: 3,803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Nice translation



oh boy, another one of these threads. wait till the locally dimming guys find out about it and hijack the thread.

be careful d-nice, you know how these things usually turn out.

get out now before the sharp and sony fanboys start slamming you.

lol

neflixis our nemesis
mr. wally is offline  
post #25 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Member
 
Collusion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Kuopio, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 16
I do have an European non-elite 9G Kuro and one thing which newer sets tend to best it is static resolution. This is due to the selected dithering method which tend to be more noisy at the brighter end of the grayscale. I am not exactly sure this is the main reason for slight lack of depth but surely cannot think of anything else.

Still fine display, no matter what.
Collusion is offline  
post #26 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
sytech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 981
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 114
They don't call the Sharp 70" Elite the "Kuro Killer" for nothing.

By next year the Kuro Killers should be the 55" LG OLED or the rumored 80" Elite 4K. There is also the slight possibility of an AppleTv using a Sharp/Foxconn panel, but the specs of the panel are unknown and it could just be a regular high end Sharp LCD with Siri and Apple interface included. If it was cutting edge tech, the price would be over 10K with Apple's insane markup.
sytech is offline  
post #27 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 06:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
saprano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Bronx NY
Posts: 3,335
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 210
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

They don't call the Sharp 70" Elite the "Kuro Killer" for nothing.

By next year the Kuro Killers should be the 55" LG OLED or the rumored 80" Elite 4K. There is also the slight possibility of an AppleTv using a Sharp/Foxconn panel, but the specs of the panel are unknown and it could just be a regular high end Sharp LCD with Siri and Apple interface included. If it was cutting edge tech, the price would be over 10K with Apple's insane markup.

This guy again.

In no way shape or form is the sharp a kuro killer. You made that name up by the way. There is no "they."

These threads always turn out this way. Can a mod lock this please?

home theater addict
saprano is online now  
post #28 of 47 Old 04-20-2012, 08:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
6SpeedTA95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Tulsa area
Posts: 2,320
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
People tend to forget there were 8G, 9G and 9.5G KURO's. The differences between the 8 and 9s is pretty significant. The 9.5s are even better than the 9's.

My point is some people (myself included) will be upgrading from their KURO's fairly soon, but I've got an 8G. If i had a 9G or 9.5 I'd probably be keeping it.
6SpeedTA95 is offline  
post #29 of 47 Old 04-21-2012, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
blutarsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Rome, Italy
Posts: 623
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Same here.

Guys, stop asking to lock this please. It helps people to get an idea.
blutarsky is offline  
post #30 of 47 Old 04-22-2012, 02:58 PM
 
Auditor55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Silicon Valley, CA.
Posts: 8,795
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutarsky View Post

Same here.

Guys, stop asking to lock this please. It helps people to get an idea.

I'm suprised this thread haven't turned into a flame war resulting in a pad lock on it.

It really doesn't matter if the Kuro is surpassed or not, in this economy, if the price ain't right its not going to fly. The Sharp Elite, LG OLED and Samsung OLED will die on the vine. Did we not already learn this from Pioneer.
Auditor55 is offline  
Reply Flat Panels General and OLED Technology

Tags
Panasonic Viera Tc P50st50 Plasma Tv , Panasonic Viera Tc P55vt50 , Samsung 65 Inch 3d Led Hdtv Un65d8000
Gear in this thread

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off