Common problems in LEDs/LCDs/Plasma... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 72 Old 05-01-2012, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I missed it when I searched, but I don't see any threads about what to look for when looking at TVs in the store.

I'm new to LCD/LED/Plasma sets, as my last set (now on the fritz) is a Sony rear-projection. Last time I looked at televisions, I was told to pay attention to the level of detail in the picture as opposed to how bright/saturated the colors are.

So now I'm starting to look into flat screens and have noticed a few "effects" of which to be wary. However, I haven't seen many examples of such.

So if someone can post examples of Flashlighting and 3d Crosstalk, I'd be grateful (understanding it may not be possible with 3d).

Additionally, if people can give general tips on what to look for (other than a great picture) when critically viewing televisions sets at the store...or websites with such recommendations, I'd appreciate it.

thanks.
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post #2 of 72 Old 05-01-2012, 08:10 PM
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I'm not the pro, but LCD and led are pretty much the same thing. LED panels are thinner due to engineer moving the backlight to the edge. This causes bleeding edge, clouding effects and backlight uniformity. They have more led than regular LCD now I believe. as for plasma, they have the burn in period, but new plasma are better now. plasma display at 720p vs 1080p from LCD/LED. Though they're some that's 1080p. LED/LCD could still suffer from burn in. Plasmas are good for dark room. simple google could answer a lot of your questions. What you want to get is base on your personal preferences. Good luck
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post #3 of 72 Old 05-01-2012, 09:25 PM
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Main problems with plasma:

1. Reflection

2. Burn in (especially during the "break in" period)

3. Flickering

4. Deep black levels will fade after a while (takes a long time)

Main problems with CCFL LCD:

1. Poor blacks

2. Washed out colors

3. Poor uniformity

Main problems with edge LED:

1. Clouding

2. Flashlighting

3. Crushed blacks (on most sets)

Main problems with backlit LED:

1. Banding (on some sets)

2. Blooming (if there are not enough dimming zones)

3. Price

IMO, I would suggest getting a backlit LED TV. These TV's are kinda expensive but it's worth it. The best backlit LED TVs right now are:

1. Sharp Elite

2. LG LM9600

3. Sony 929

At the end of the day no one can tell you what looks good. We all have our own eyes. A lot of people will tell you that Plasma is the best, while others (like me) will tell you to go with LED (backlit not edge lit). You should go to your local shop and look at what TV's look good to you. Write down the model numbers (example: UN46ES8000) and look at the reviews online.
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post #4 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post

Main problems with plasma:

1. Reflection

2. Burn in (especially during the "break in" period)

3. Flickering

4. Deep black levels will fade after a while (takes a long time)

Main problems with CCFL LCD:

1. Poor blacks

2. Washed out colors

3. Poor uniformity

Main problems with edge LED:

1. Clouding

2. Flashlighting

3. Crushed blacks (on most sets)

Main problems with backlit LED:

1. Banding (on some sets)

2. Blooming (if there are not enough dimming zones)

3. Price

IMO, I would suggest getting a backlit LED TV. These TV's are kinda expensive but it's worth it. The best backlit LED TVs right now are:

1. Sharp Elite

2. LG LM9600

3. Sony 929

At the end of the day no one can tell you what looks good. We all have our own eyes. A lot of people will tell you that Plasma is the best, while others (like me) will tell you to go with LED (backlit not edge lit). You should go to your local shop and look at what TV's look good to you. Write down the model numbers (example: UN46ES8000) and look at the reviews online.


Interesting info.

I own a Bravia KLV-40S400A, which is a Backlit LCD TV. I definitely notice banding in some games and movies, as well as satellite TV. Will calibrating it fix the banding issue? It's an 8-bit panel, will upgrading to 10-bit or 12-bit solve the issue?
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post #5 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eclipsegt View Post

Main problems with plasma:

1. Reflection

2. Burn in (especially during the "break in" period)

3. Flickering

4. Deep black levels will fade after a while (takes a long time)

Main problems with CCFL LCD:

1. Poor blacks

2. Washed out colors

3. Poor uniformity

Main problems with edge LED:

1. Clouding

2. Flashlighting

3. Crushed blacks (on most sets)

Main problems with backlit LED:

1. Banding (on some sets)

2. Blooming (if there are not enough dimming zones)

3. Price

IMO, I would suggest getting a backlit LED TV. These TV's are kinda expensive but it's worth it. The best backlit LED TVs right now are:

1. Sharp Elite

2. LG LM9600

3. Sony 929

At the end of the day no one can tell you what looks good. We all have our own eyes. A lot of people will tell you that Plasma is the best, while others (like me) will tell you to go with LED (backlit not edge lit). You should go to your local shop and look at what TV's look good to you. Write down the model numbers (example: UN46ES8000) and look at the reviews online.


This is the type of information I was looking to find. Can you explain a little about each effect on the LED sets? I think I know what flashlighting is, but what constitutes "crushed blacks". If anyone has any photos, that would be helpful.

Thanks.
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post #6 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Well a quick google search and I was able to find out what "crushed black" is:

In the case of black - if you have the brightness of the display set to such a level that a fully black signal is actually trying to be reproduced below the darkest level the display can display, then it will (obviously, I hope) be reproduced at the display's darkest level. But something that is dark grey (almost but not quite as dark)(or, actually any other very dark colour) will be reproduced also at the darkest level the display can display. In other words there is no on screen visible difference between black and almost black in the signal.

Found on another forum by moderator "LV426". If anyone can provide other explanations, this might be a nice thread for the new buyer out there in defining some of these terms.

*Edit: Found information on AVSforum with a picture for "Clouding":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18867793
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post #7 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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This link appears to have an example of "Flashlighting":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18867793
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post #8 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Banding:

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...9,r:0,s:0,i:70

I think there are better pictures for banding on the web, but I'm unsure of linking to other sites...so that's what I've found so far.

(FYI, that's a google search for "led banding" with a hit to AVSforum).
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post #9 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I found this definition of "blooming" from CNET Asia:

One downside to local dimming is an effect called "blooming", where brighter areas bleed into darker ones and lighten adjacent black levels. This "blooming" effect varies widely from model to model. Incidence of blooming is directly related to how many local-dimming LED elements ("dimmable zones") are behind the screen, but some manufacturers won't divulge that information.
Source: http://asia.cnet.com/led-tvs-10-thin...w-62058586.htm

Photo on blooming from AVSForum Google Search:
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl...9,r:2,s:0,i:74
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post #10 of 72 Old 05-02-2012, 09:38 PM
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All those links are great links. As you can see clouding would get annoying really fast.

When you find a set that you like, be sure to check out sites like flatpanelshd.com and televisioninfo.com. Both of these sites have great, in depth reveiws.
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post #11 of 72 Old 05-03-2012, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks...hopefully I have just about every potential problem covered.
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post #12 of 72 Old 05-07-2012, 10:05 PM
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Pack66, in my opinion, evaluating a TV is part science and part personal preference: The science part is the industrial standards. If you are willing to invest the time to educated yourself, you may want to check out the HDTV shootout channel in YouTube. But be warn, they are really serious about TVs. Also, this year's top of the line side by side HDTV comparison is May 19 & 20. For detail, check this out: http://youtu.be/KFcITMbxYdA?hd=1
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post #13 of 72 Old 05-08-2012, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pack66 View Post

Thanks...hopefully I have just about every potential problem covered.

No. They forgot viewing angle. All LCD TVs - CCFL and LED - suffer from picture deterioration because of viewing angle, some of them severely. Me coming from rear projection and plasma, buying my first LCD - viewing angle hit me like a brick and nobody seems to have mentioned it much on the forums. The funny thing is you don't notice the issue much in stores, because they play dynamic, mostly CGI video loops an all sets are at maximum brightness. But when you take it home and you view it from closer distance, it's a whole different story.
Plasma has no viewing angle issues.
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post #14 of 72 Old 05-08-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Most people set in front of their tv while viewing. Viewing angle is not an issue under those conditions.

God forbid there are several people watching a movie or sporting event.

Mike

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post #15 of 72 Old 05-08-2012, 12:18 PM
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Hogwash! Both points are valid. He is not saying your light darkening is not a consideration but YOU are trying to say viewing angles are not important and they certainly are. Anyone who refutes it should be on the list is out of their mind (AND WRONG). Now it may be that its not in issue for the OP but that does not mean it should not be on his list!
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post #16 of 72 Old 05-08-2012, 12:37 PM
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The OP is not overly concerned with how YOU watch TV. He asked for a list of things to address when looking for a set. Viewing Angles should be on the list. Period. A person may check it off as non important but to not put it on a list is bad advice.
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post #17 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

I am saying viewing angles aren't important if you sit in front of you tv to view it as most people do. Personally, I don't try to watch a tv that's in the living room from my kitchen.

Some people actually have family and friends. Their needs would be different than an individual who is sitting in the sweet spot all the time. LCDs lose a tremendous amount of picture quality with off angle seating.

Mike

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post #18 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Personally, I don't try to watch a tv that's in the living room from my kitchen.

No need to go to the kitchen. You only need to lean to the side without moving from your chair to see deterioration of picture on every LCD (on some of them severe). But, as most people, you have learned to live with it and your brain pretends it doesn't care.
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post #19 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 07:48 AM
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The problem with PDPs is on-axis viewing. I brought home a brand new Panasonic PDP, determined to like what the prevailing AVS wisdom said was the best budget HDTV.

My 50" TV was centered in front of my couch about 7' away. There was a reading lamp at both ends of the couch. Whenever the lamp was on, the person at the other end of the couch had a view of the reader superimposed over the HDTV image.

This was TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE performance for me. For you, perhaps you have "learned to live with it and your brain pretends it doesn't care."

The truth of the matter is, that the best PDP with the best anti-glare coating is still a shiny piece of glass, and the heavier the coating, the dirtier the glass looks.

Anti-glare matte finishes on LCDs have gotten much better. Some plastic matte screens now include millions of tiny raised microbumps. These break up reflections and even avoid highlights. This tech was copied from nature, many insects have such eyes and survive because predators don't see reflected light.

In many rooms with controlled lighting, you are free to indulge a preference for one tech or another. In bright rooms with uncontrolled light, a matte-screen LCD reigns supreme. In darkened theaters, PDPs are preferred.

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post #20 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 09:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcho View Post

No need to go to the kitchen. You only need to lean to the side without moving from your chair to see deterioration of picture on every LCD (on some of them severe). But, as most people, you have learned to live with it and your brain pretends it doesn't care.

What a crock of misinformation. I have a 9 foot wide couch and viewing is perfect from either end of the sofa.
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post #21 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 09:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary McCoy View Post

The problem with PDPs is on-axis viewing. I brought home a brand new Panasonic PDP, determined to like what the prevailing AVS wisdom said was the best budget HDTV.

My 50" TV was centered in front of my couch about 7' away. There was a reading lamp at both ends of the couch. Whenever the lamp was on, the person at the other end of the couch had a view of the reader superimposed over the HDTV image.

This was TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE performance for me. For you, perhaps you have "learned to live with it and your brain pretends it doesn't care."

The truth of the matter is, that the best PDP with the best anti-glare coating is still a shiny piece of glass, and the heavier the coating, the dirtier the glass looks.

Anti-glare matte finishes on LCDs have gotten much better. Some plastic matte screens now include millions of tiny raised microbumps. These break up reflections and even avoid highlights. This tech was copied from nature, many insects have such eyes and survive because predators don't see reflected light.

In many rooms with controlled lighting, you are free to indulge a preference for one tech or another. In bright rooms with uncontrolled light, a matte-screen LCD reigns supreme. In darkened theaters, PDPs are preferred.

I have virtually no reflection problems with the Sharp 70 inch tv.
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post #22 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

I have virtually no reflection problems with the Sharp 70 inch tv.

I have the 80" 632 and the reflection is much worse than the plasma I had before. The plasma glass would reflect but the reflection in the 632 washes the entire area out. For me it's unwatchable with a light on in the room.
Also if I sit outside the 80" boundary of the tv it loses a ton of color saturation and detail. We can agree to disagree but EVERY review I read about the Sharp and MOST other LCD displays there is an off angle viewing problem.

Mike

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Attached are photos of the Sharp 70LE732 in both a very bright room, and also in a dark room. [ATTACH]Attachment 245976[/ATTACH] As you can see, the sunlight is streaming in from a picture window and yet picture quality is still quite acceptable.
LL
LL
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post #24 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

Attached are photos of the Sharp 70LE732 in both a very bright room, and also in a dark room. [ATTACH]Attachment 245976[/ATTACH] As you can see, the sunlight is streaming in from a picture window and yet picture quality is still quite acceptable.

I was speaking of off angle viewing. I can get mine to output over 100 ft L and view in direct sunlight. Light output is NOT a problem for LCD

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post #25 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 09:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by wmwilker View Post

I was speaking of off angle viewing. I can get mine to output over 100 ft L and view in direct sunlight. Light output is NOT a problem for LCD

You were complaining about reflection. Don't you think that large picture window would be reflected on the tv if reflection were a problem?
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post #26 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

You were complaining about reflection. Don't you think that large picture window would be reflected on the tv if refleciton were a problem.

I have mine calibrated to a 39 ft L for night viewing and the reflections are bad. I could crank up the backlight and drown out any reflections. I prefer to not wear sunglasses.

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post #27 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 10:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

You were complaining about reflection. Don't you think that large picture window would be reflected on the tv if reflection were a problem?

The pictures you see are from my own setting. There is no different daytime or night time setting. No setting is anywhere near max. The tv is definitely not in the "torch" mode. Picture quality is excellent. And no, I do not need sunglasses when I view it. My backlite is set at +9.
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post #28 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pds3 View Post

The pictures you see are from my own setting. There is no different daytime or night time setting. No setting is anywhere near max. The tv is definitely not in the "torch" mode. Picture quality is excellent. And no, I do not need sunglasses when I view it. My backlite is set at +9.

Mine is at -8

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post #29 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 12:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditcho View Post

No. They forgot viewing angle. All LCD TVs - CCFL and LED - suffer from picture deterioration because of viewing angle, some of them severely. Me coming from rear projection and plasma, buying my first LCD - viewing angle hit me like a brick and nobody seems to have mentioned it much on the forums. The funny thing is you don't notice the issue much in stores, because they play dynamic, mostly CGI video loops an all sets are at maximum brightness. But when you take it home and you view it from closer distance, it's a whole different story.
Plasma has no viewing angle issues.

Viewing angle is kind of a problem. Its only a problem if your trying to cook and watch TV side ways. If you have an A/V systems with an LCD TV , more than likely you are sitting in the sweet spot.

Also, plasma has poor whites and dithering.
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post #30 of 72 Old 05-09-2012, 12:43 PM
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Bottom line is that plasma's and LCD/LED displays both have strong and weak points. Your viewing environment will dictate which suits your needs best. Size also plays a role in your choice. If you want 70" to 80" you're pretty much eliminating plasma's. If 65" fits your needs then the biggest factor is your ability to control lighting. If you can keep your viewing room kind of dark, with little or no direct light shinning on the screen then plasma is a great choice and probably a bit better in a very dark room. Plasma's do run hotter and they do use a bit more electricity and they are heavier. A mid to high end LED backlit LCD is a excellent all room performer but they too can reflect a bit as these TV's have gone to more reflective screens because they provide better PQ. Off axis viewing is a slight problem but for most it's not a big deal but a absolute consideration depending on room shape and how many people will be regular viewers. With a little tweaking in the regular menu both technologies can provide a jaw dropping viewing experience. Unless your friends are AVS Forum nuts, like us, they aren't going to care if you have the best black levels or highest contrast ratio. They are just going to say "WOW" I need me one of these baby's.. and you won't need to hide your big ass grin.
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