Going from a Pioneer plasma to an edge-lit LCD... Will I hate it? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I love the picture quality of the plasma but it puts out so much heat that it warms up the entire living room after a couple of hours. I didn't realize how cheap big LCDs had gotten until I was walking through Costco. So now I'm thinking about replacing my 50" Pioneer non-elite with a 60-inch LED LCD... It'll be bigger, and hopefully it will save power and keep the room cooler!

I do love the picture and the purity of the motion on the tv, but I'm wondering if LCD tech has advanced enough in the last 5 years to at least come close to the Pioneer in those respects...

I'm wondering if anyone has made that transition and could comment on it...


Thanks!
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post #2 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 12:58 PM
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Have you looked at the Panasonic VT50? It has the best picture rating in this years flat panel shoot out, which included the Sharp Elite. It runs significantly cooler then your old Pioneer Kuru.



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post #3 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 01:13 PM
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Maybe only the very expensive Sharp Elite LED models may come close to satisfying a Pioneer Kuru owner in regards to black levels.
But all LCDs/LEDs still have a relatively narrow viewing angle with respect to plasmas.
The 2012 Panasonic plasmas however have reduced power consumption considerably from the plasmas from the last few years, and improved black levels too with lower price than the Sharp Elites, so they are worthy of consideration as well.
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post #4 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Have you looked at the Panasonic VT50? It has the best picture rating in this years flat panel shoot out, which included the Sharp Elite. It runs significantly cooler then your old Pioneer Kuru.
Ian

It's also about $900 more than the 60" LCDs I was looking at!

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Originally Posted by BriscoCountyJr View Post

Maybe only the very expensive Sharp Elite LED models may come close to satisfying a Pioneer Kuru owner in regards to black levels.
But all LCDs/LEDs still have a relatively narrow viewing angle with respect to plasmas.
The 2012 Panasonic plasmas however have reduced power consumption considerably from the plasmas from the last few years, and improved black levels too with lower price than the Sharp Elites, so they are worthy of consideration as well.

The viewing angle thing isn't a concern, and I think it's overblown anyway. I've always read dire info here about poor off axis colors, but watching my parents' Samsung LCD at a ~40 degree angle I've never seen the image fall apart as some would have you believe it would...

I don't really know how much the black level thing will offend me. My Best Buy does have a Magnolia section, maybe I could go look at those sets. At least it's a more realistic environment than the rest of the sales floor.

And the Sharp Elites are way way out of the price range I was looking at....
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post #5 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 02:48 PM
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Just keep in mind, that if your are only going to be satisfied with a set that is close to the level of your Kuro, you may have to up your budget a bit. The only set I have seen so far that even resembles the over all pq of those sets is the VT50, but that's just me.



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post #6 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 04:19 PM
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An edge lit lcd??? Yes you will hate it. Alot.

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post #7 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 05:05 PM
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The viewing angle thing isn't a concern, and I think it's overblown anyway. I've always read dire info here about poor off axis colors, but watching my parents' Samsung LCD at a ~40 degree angle I've never seen the image fall apart as some would have you believe it would...

How old is your parents' Samsung? My folks have two "older" 46" CCFL Samsung's and they both provide better off-angle viewing than the newer edge-lit LED/LCDs we've seen.

Still, there is variance between models, and would agree that we've seen several LCDs that seemed to look just fine at reasonable off-angles - but others look poor enough that even my wife has commented on it, and she is generally pretty insensitive to PQ issues.
Even so, think it takes an Expensive LCD (LED or not...) to get close to the mid-level or higher plasma sets, and off-angle viewing is not the only problem that edge-lit panels face.

You might have better luck with a back-lit ccfl model, if such a beast still exists.

Have you visited CNet's website? They identify a handful of reasonably priced LCDs that they recommend. Plasma sets still win for overall PQ (excepting Sharp Elite LCD), and also Price / Performance, but for people who WANT LCD, there are some decent panels.

(Disclaimer: our current panels - 3 - are all Pan Plasmas, so clearly not LCD fans....)
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post #8 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dierkdr View Post

How old is your parents' Samsung? My folks have two "older" 46" CCFL Samsung's and they both provide better off-angle viewing than the newer edge-lit LED/LCDs we've seen.
Still, there is variance between models, and would agree that we've seen several LCDs that seemed to look just fine at reasonable off-angles - but others look poor enough that even my wife has commented on it, and she is generally pretty insensitive to PQ issues.
Even so, think it takes an Expensive LCD (LED or not...) to get close to the mid-level or higher plasma sets, and off-angle viewing is not the only problem that edge-lit panels face.
You might have better luck with a back-lit ccfl model, if such a beast still exists.
Have you visited CNet's website? They identify a handful of reasonably priced LCDs that they recommend. Plasma sets still win for overall PQ (excepting Sharp Elite LCD), and also Price / Performance, but for people who WANT LCD, there are some decent panels.
(Disclaimer: our current panels - 3 - are all Pan Plasmas, so clearly not LCD fans....)

Their Samsung is probably 5 years old so it's gotta be ccfl, right? I think it looks fine off axis.

It looks like there are still some direct-lit LED LCDs out there....Would those fare better in the picture quality arena? Edge lit and direct lit 55-60" sets look like they use about 70-80W. What's interesting is the 60" Panasonic UT50 plasma only uses 139W. So it's not a huge difference between the two. By contrast the Pioneer uses about 450W, haha. So even the Panasonic would use 1/3 the power and hopefully put out 1/3 the heat.

I'd be interested to know if there's actually a difference in the panels between the Panasonic models or if it's the same panel with different features tacked on. I really don't care about 3D, internet connectivity, apps, or any of that. I just want a good looking monitor that doesn't heat up my living room and doesn't cost a whole lot. biggrin.gif
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post #9 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

Their Samsung is probably 5 years old so it's gotta be ccfl, right? I think it looks fine off axis.
It looks like there are still some direct-lit LED LCDs out there....Would those fare better in the picture quality arena? Edge lit and direct lit 55-60" sets look like they use about 70-80W. What's interesting is the 60" Panasonic UT50 plasma only uses 139W. So it's not a huge difference between the two. By contrast the Pioneer uses about 450W, haha. So even the Panasonic would use 1/3 the power and hopefully put out 1/3 the heat.
I'd be interested to know if there's actually a difference in the panels between the Panasonic models or if it's the same panel with different features tacked on. I really don't care about 3D, internet connectivity, apps, or any of that. I just want a good looking monitor that doesn't heat up my living room and doesn't cost a whole lot. biggrin.gif

Watch out on those plasma power numbers - those low watts values are only if the set is in the default standard mode which is incredibly dim.
Once calibrated in cinema or custom mode with a decent brightness, the watts will be higher, more like 300+watts for a 55-60" model, though it will vary with how bright a scene is.

There are few direct backlit LCDs now, the better quality LED models are edge lit because they want to make the set as thin as possible.
Samsung does have some lower end LED models that have non-edge LEDs but fewer of them and the sets are as thick as older CCFL LCD models - but those are only lower end models that don't have 3D or internet apps and with lower refresh rates.
The only high quality direct backlit LED models are the very expensive models from Sony and Sharp Elites, but they are closest to a plasma in terms of black levels and motion processing with high 240 fps refresh too.
Even the middle range edge lit 3D LED models still cost more than a similar sized and featured 3D Panasonic plasma though.
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post #10 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

I'd be interested to know if there's actually a difference in the panels between the Panasonic models or if it's the same panel with different features tacked on. I really don't care about 3D, internet connectivity, apps, or any of that. I just want a good looking monitor that doesn't heat up my living room and doesn't cost a whole lot. biggrin.gif
The Panasonic plasma panels improve even for regular 2D viewing if its a 3D model though, but purportedly the picture quality and panel is the same (once calibrated) between the cheapest Panasonic 1080p 3D panel (UT50) vs the ST50 and GT50. The top of the line VT50 purportedly has slightly better picture quality/features though.
But the lower end UT50 has no anti-glare screen filter, which is important if you use it in a room not light controlled environment, it also has only 2 HDMI ports, while the ST50 has 3 HDMI, and the GT50 has 4 HDMI plus some extra picture modes.
So the lowest Panasonic plasma recommended is the 1080p 3D UT50 models which have smart/internet apps anyway.
The next model up the ST50 is the cheapest one with anti-glare screen filter, good in an environment with more light and it also adds pro settings for a little better picture quality possible with the ability for setting gamma, etc.
The next higher models mostly just add better styling, extra inputs, dual core CPU for faster internet apps, etc.
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post #11 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 09:32 PM
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If you ever watch TV in a dark room, the black level of an LED lit LCD may bother you..especially when watching dark movies....

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post #12 of 15 Old 08-04-2012, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaball77 View Post

Their Samsung is probably 5 years old so it's gotta be ccfl, right? I think it looks fine off axis.
It looks like there are still some direct-lit LED LCDs out there....Would those fare better in the picture quality arena? Edge lit and direct lit 55-60" sets look like they use about 70-80W. What's interesting is the 60" Panasonic UT50 plasma only uses 139W. So it's not a huge difference between the two. By contrast the Pioneer uses about 450W, haha. So even the Panasonic would use 1/3 the power and hopefully put out 1/3 the heat.
I'd be interested to know if there's actually a difference in the panels between the Panasonic models or if it's the same panel with different features tacked on. I really don't care about 3D, internet connectivity, apps, or any of that. I just want a good looking monitor that doesn't heat up my living room and doesn't cost a whole lot. biggrin.gif

And where did you get 450W from? My 60" kuro stays around 250W to 300W. Only when something is bright on screen does it go above 300W. The total output is 524W, doesn't mean it uses all that.

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post #13 of 15 Old 08-05-2012, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by saprano View Post

And where did you get 450W from? My 60" kuro stays around 250W to 300W. Only when something is bright on screen does it go above 300W. The total output is 524W, doesn't mean it uses all that.
I'm only going by what I can find online. All the specs I can find say 436W for the PDP5020FD. I can't find the Energy Star label for it. So you're probably right about it being lower. I need to order a Kill-A-Watt and see what it's really using.

The other numbers I posted are calculated from the Energy Guide labels... I assume their energy usage could be lower than what's on the label too depending on the settings. I'd be interested to know how the numbers on the energy labels are calculated and/or tested...
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post #14 of 15 Old 08-05-2012, 07:47 AM
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Edge lit and direct lit 55-60" sets look like they use about 70-80W. What's interesting is the 60" Panasonic UT50 plasma only uses 139W. So it's not a huge difference between the two.

Again, visit CNet & look at some of their reviews: they usually (always? Or perhaps for all plasma sets & Larger LCD models) include Power Usage results for OOTB AND Post-Calibration.

That should give you some idea of real-world power usage.

Consumer Reports also gives an "Energy Cost Per Year" figure (in $; based on 5 hours usage daily), which provides relative power consumption.

Most plasma panels are more efficient than in the past, & Power COST is scarcely a factor anymore: Per CR, our 60ST50 costs about $4.50/month to operate. Certainly, that is more than LCD panels cost, but still not a high enough figure to warrant placing into OUR purchase decision matrix.

Lower energy consumption should yield lower heat output. But while we do not notice any General Room Heating effect from our 60" panel, would be lying to say that, IF you get close enough, there was NO heat radiating off the screen. But I need to get within inches to feel it.

Again, take some time to read a number of reviews - and also to visit owner's threads to see what they think about their panels.

Always remembering that A) People with problems - or axes to grind - often find their way to Owner Boards; and B) These are sometimes offset by Pollyannas who claim NO FLAWS WHATSOEVER for their chosen panel.... eek.gif

Happy Hunting!
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post #15 of 15 Old 08-05-2012, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumlad View Post

If you ever watch TV in a dark room, the black level of an LED lit LCD may bother you..especially when watching dark movies....


That's when plasmas really come alive and the picture jumps out at you.
Brightness and Contrast are the main two to fiddle with.
I watch mostly at night in the dark and once your eyes
and brain get used to it these new plasmas look sick, I mean that in a good way.
Watch 2001: A Space Odyssey on a calibrated plasma in the dark
and it all becomes quite clear and no explanation is needed.
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