Moving camera platform for Motion Blur Measurement -- Any available? ($ for homemade solution) - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 39 Old 03-17-2013, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by iBrad View Post


Is there a way to minimize that frame-doubling from locked @30fps (console) videogames?
Like with a videoscaler/processor rescale the videogame 60Hz to 24Hz output and the tv detect/switch it to 24p moviemode, will that worked out?
I don't think you'd want to output a 30 fps game at 24Hz - you'd only get worse judder.

I suppose if you wanted it to blank out the screen (or parts of it) you could get a (>=120Hz) TV with a scanning LED backlight or black frame insertion. (edit: though they might disable those options in the game mode setting of the TV?).

Here's a thread about it::
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1107325/30fps-gaming-at-60hz-and-the-effects-of-frame-doubling
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post #32 of 39 Old 03-18-2013, 01:08 AM
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...
Thanks for the link, it's a very good thread!
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post #33 of 39 Old 03-18-2013, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by iBrad View Post

Why there are tv's with Game Mode, but not a specific 30fps (30p) Game Mode, don't they ever noticed that annoying frame-doubling effects?

I going to guess and say it's a good idea for lcd, but crt and most plasmas would flicker way too much at that frame rate.
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post #34 of 39 Old 03-18-2013, 02:53 PM
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I going to guess and say it's a good idea for lcd, but crt and most plasmas would flicker way too much at that frame rate.
How would it improve LCD? Why would an LCD outputting at 30Hz be an improvement over the same one outputting at 60Hz?
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post #35 of 39 Old 03-18-2013, 04:29 PM
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Good question. I can only give an opinion and some one else might clarify. I agree a true sample and hold display should not show a difference. In my experience, lcds are not true sample and hold though because of the fact that i can see judder (symmetrical frame repeats specifically). This says to me frames are not consecutive / continuous as you would expect but have "breaks" similar to crt / plasma. So in the real world, lcd would benefit from judder reduction.
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post #36 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by borf View Post

p.s. I see how you guys in the Oled thread are trying to clarify these blog diagrams. A simple .gif animation is good to explain something like this in the temporal domain (time permitting).
Very good suggestion. I've thought of this already a few months ago; the problem is the time. But it's definitely on this year's "todo" list :-)


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Originally Posted by borf View Post

I going to guess and say it's a good idea for lcd, but crt and most plasmas would flicker way too much at that frame rate.
Depends on the audience. There are many enthusiast gamers (they are more common than videophiles) that get annoyed by the 30fps@60Hz effect. They just don't complain about it here on AVSFORUM; they complain fiercely in places like HardForum and Overclock (which are massively popular forums with many millions of posts too). There's precedent; Much like Europeans get annoyed by 3:2 pulldown after being used to 2:2 pulldown; it doesn't "look right".

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #37 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"Reality" often doesn't work with video/film-type sources because sets aren't real. So when they get high frame rates, the illusion breaks and they look fake all over again.
And, ironically, where high fps does help -- like live sports -- it's thwarted by lousy bitrates / early compression.
Again, I'm not saying, "don't fight the blur fight," I'm just parameter-izing it a bit.
Definitely, I already covered several aspects of this in Scanning Backlight FAQ and made some minor modifications to the "Causes" section of Wikipedia "Display Motion Blur that mentions exactly what you said.

To eliminate 100% of display-based motion blur, and have all remaining motion blur be naturally introduced (by human eye):

Short frame samples to eliminate sample-and-hold issue.
....by using a high Hz (more frames), or by using lots of black periods between Hz (more black period between frames). 1ms frame samples is considered the Holy Grail (CRT quality, for the complete phosphor illuminuate-and-then-decay cycle), so to completely eliminate perceived motion blur for 99%+ of human population, 1ms frame sample lengths is the goal. If using the Hz method, you need 1000fps@1000Hz sample-and-hold non-flickering display. If using the flicker method, you just need to flicker the individual frames for 1ms once per refresh, even if you are using just 60Hz or 120Hz (maximize your black period between end of last frame and start of next frame).

Frame rate matches refresh rate
....affects eye tracking sync; frame repeats adds a sample-and-hold effect; and judders/stutters introduces unwanted extra motion blur

Very sharp frames
....no compression blur, no soft focus, no overcompression. Consequently, video games are excellent candidates for motion blur elimination.

Blur Busters Blog focusses on motion blur elimination for computers and video games, so typically the frames are very sharp and not overcompressed, and often contains high-contrast edges; which makes motion blur easier to see in video games than live action material; (but manufacturers had historically been focussing on eliminating LCD motion blur from live material!)

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Mark Rejhon

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BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #38 of 39 Old 03-20-2013, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Yes, but they more or less solve the problem for anyone who isn't gaming.
So? I'm not in Hollywood, I'm in gaming. The game industry is popular (more money is spent on games than movies nowadays). Each to their own; I'm signing to a different choir here. I get complaints from surprising places; ever since I introduced Blur Busters. I even get people complaining why their PS Vita has motion blur (but didn't know where to complain), so that prompted me to write the article explaining it. And there's a lot of latent demand for blur-free displays by people who don't realize they wanted it.

This is the nichemarket version of the Apple iPad effect ("I didn't know I wanted it until I tried it out"); the niche market is often 10 times bigger than expected (e.g. 5% of market instead of 0.5%). Problematically, displays with a lack of motion blur, is often extremely hard to advertise, and it's chiefly a "see for yourself" thing -- but I've had readers who wrote in that said they saw friend's LightBoost monitors and immediately went out to buy one for themselves, or regretted buying the wrong monitor before they heard about LightBoost.
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In fact, I'm pretty sure 240Hz has proved to be largely marketing. The best results are probably from the 120Hz sets with strobing, but I admit to doing no scientific test to back that up.
Best motion results occur when you have longer black periods between refreshes, and shorter strobes. However, many of these existing HDTV technologies don't meet their claims because of many unexpected factors (such as backlight diffusion between "on" segments and "off" segments in a scanning backlight). From my testing, the best results come from the "960" displays including the Elite LCD HDTV, and Samsung's highest end CMR 960 displays, as well as Sony Motionflow XR960. However, even many of these displays don't come close to exceeding plasma quality in motion blur (unlike LightBoost, which behaves more similar to a scientifically 'ideal' scanning backlight). These HDTV"s are too expensive, so most consumers do not care about this.

Fortunately, LightBoost was recently measured to produce superior motion blur to all of these HDTV's (and plasmas), while costing less than $300 -- the VG248QE is available on Amazon for under $290 -- so for the first time, "order-of-magnitude-blur-reduction" backlights have finally arrived in sub-$300 LCD displays; and is starting to spread like wildfire in the "high-end enthusiast" community in recent weeks. (the video game equivalent of "videophile")
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People also don't care about those things, except when they do.
This is where you are wrong; they do. LightBoost is a major sales driver of the ASUS VG248QE monitor; the manufacturer rep from ASUS is also in the video and talked about the LightBoost motion blur elimination (he was definitely referring to my work indirectly). NewEgg, a major online computer hardware retailer (one of the top sellers after Amazon), mentions it in their VG248QE YouTube this week (10K views), seek to 5:18 for the LightBoost talk; ASUS is now aware as they themselves specficially mentioned it. The monitor is SOLD OUT on NewEgg. Customer reviews on Amazon/NewEgg mentions the LightBoost motion blur elimination more often than the LightBoost 3D Vision. It is still a niche feature, but the feature is already more popular than nVidia's 3D Vision! Credit due where credit due; even if it's still a niche feature.
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Generally, these little bits of image quality don't drive purchases.
Generally yes. However, they can be market drivers for a high-end product, where the money is actually earned.

LightBoost motion blur elimination is now a major driver in sales of ASUS VG248QE, currently the world's most popular 120 Hz *computer* monitor. Yes, 120 Hz is a niche market, but again, Blur Busters does not mind working in a niche market. It just came out in January 2013, only two months ago. Proof already given.

1. Approx 20% customer reviews for VG248QE on Amazon.com mentions LightBoost zero motion blur effect; (4.5 star rating on Amazon)
2. VG248QE is NewEgg's most popular 120 Hz computer monitor, and it is SOLD OUT on NewEgg when I checked just now (March 20, 2013)
3. NewEgg mentions the LightBoost motion blur elimination feature this week as a driving sales factor in their YouTube.
4. Google ranking LightBoost very highly for motion blur elimination now;
5. ASUS separately confirmed it's a significant driver of VG248QE sales (double-digit percentage of sales is due to LightBoost zero motion blur)

Some displays, like Samsung 27" S27A950D, did not sell very well, because of their high cost, lack of interest in 3D, etc. Reportedly, there has been more than one order of magnitude more sales of ASUS VG248QE -- suggesting a bigger-than-expected niche market; and the low price ($300 vs >$600) helps massively as well.

Eventually, manufacturers are bound to notice, and standardize this a little more (as a vendor supported feature for 2D blur elimination, instead of just for 3D Vision) since it's a cheap-to-add feature (as long as the panel is 3D-ready anyway). I can cite more citations; and yes, this is a niche product, but I consider it a niche success that LightBoost's zero motion blur ability more popular than nVidia's 3D glasses purpose of LightBoost now.

Videophiles are niche. You don't underestimate them either.
So are enthusiast gamers. We don't underestimate them either.
We're not talking about the Average Joe watching an uncalibrated HDTV, or the casual gamer playing the occasional game and not really caring about 30fps-vs-60fps; we're talking about the enthusiast gamers and upwarsd (e.g. hard-core gamers, competition gamers).

Don't forget more dollars are spent in the video game industry than the hollywood industry.
Different groups sing on different forums -- you don't see much popularity here on AVSFORUM but gangbusters popularity among the enthusiast gamer community, with hundreds new posts daily mentioning LightBoost (total of all forums) in many different threads in in dozens of forums worldwide, the two most popular ones being HardForum and Overclock.net forums (pertaining to 120 Hz monitors)

We can preach all we want to our different respective industries (e.g. hollywood vs. game industries), so we will have to agree to disagree. I'm not looking for millons of views or converts, but getting over 10,000 unique pageviews per week is a massive success for Blur Busters, plus seeing other people's LightBoost-mentioned media get thousands of views (NewEgg's video has over 10K views in just 1 week), plus coverage in only starting to begin in blogger/magazine/reviewer media and growing fast over the coming weeks/months. As well as also seeing a feature that I've been advocating, even unexpectedly already become a major driver of one specific model of monitor (and even acknowledged by ASUS).

(Fun side note -- I don't benefit from any these sales! (yet) -- may have to put affilate ads on my Blur Busters Blog eventually)

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #39 of 39 Old 03-21-2013, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Check this out:
Quote:
TFTCentral has tested LightBoost with their equipment and found
LightBoost outperforms all past scanning backlights they have ever tested,
including the old BENQ AMA-Z and Samsung MPA from 2006.

tftcentral.JPG

Check out TFTCentral's Motion Blur Reduction Backlights article!

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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