2013 VE Annual Flat Panel HDTV Shootout dates have been announced - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 231 Old 05-14-2013, 03:32 PM
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I told all of you that the shootout would be rigged!

How ashamed should Panasonic be?

Has Panasonic used all of those Pioneer patents that they bought yet?

Should they have used them earlier?

You can sandbag one year too long. Is that what Panasonic did?

They should have known that all the BRIGHTNESS worshipers out there would sink them.
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post #182 of 231 Old 05-14-2013, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

The fact you continue to argue a case you haven't proved from a single data point doesn't make it true ...

I am not convinced and i still strong see the bias in the shootout.
Do visit a similar thread in the lcd section.
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post #183 of 231 Old 05-14-2013, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

I am not convinced and i still strong see the bias in the shootout.
Do visit a similar thread in the lcd section.

I am convinced you see bias. Which makes you wonder where the bias really lies.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #184 of 231 Old 05-14-2013, 05:22 PM
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aim120, you are 100% correct. The entire room was filled with a/v enthusiasts and by the time the lights dimmed anyone who was not a plasma fan boy immediately converted, but for very good reasons and to just put that in two words I would say it's simply because of...... picture quality.

AVS Forum's own Newsbreaker, Mark Hanninger wrote a great article here.

And Robert has posted CNET's article and Twice's article. All very well written and supportive of Robert and his Shootout.
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post #185 of 231 Old 05-14-2013, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

aim120, you are 100% correct.

He's 100% correct?

He's claiming the room was pre-biased toward Panasonic.

You're concurring?

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #186 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

He's 100% correct?

He's claiming the room was pre-biased toward Panasonic.

You're concurring?

I concur..there was a lot of hype for the Panasonic ZT60 and the one they had there...in the end it turned out to be nothing more than over hyping as it was equal to the VT60 and both were outdone by the Samsung
Not the first time something like this has happened and won't be the last. The star of the show doesn't always come out on top.
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post #187 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

I told all of you that the shootout would be rigged!

How ashamed should Panasonic be?

Has Panasonic used all of those Pioneer patents that they bought yet?

Should they have used them earlier?

You can sandbag one year too long. Is that what Panasonic did?

They should have known that all the BRIGHTNESS worshipers out there would sink them.

Sad to say, but you where right. Definitely some questionable testing methods to say the least. At least, we know the 3 plasma models are all fairly close in black level performance when viewed in room with at least some ambient light, like is common with Joe Public. The extra brightness of the Samsung should really make it sell well and it fully deserves it Kuro Killer crown. Congrats to Samsung.
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post #188 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Sad to say, but you where right. Definitely some questionable testing methods to say the least. At least, we know the 3 plasma models are all fairly close in black level performance when viewed in room with at least some ambient light, like is common with Joe Public. The extra brightness of the Samsung should really make it sell well and it fully deserves it Kuro Killer crown. Congrats to Samsung.

I'd be curious to know what questionable testing methods that were used. Did you attend?

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post #189 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo 
I am convinced you see bias. Which makes you wonder where the bias really lies.

It is a bit odd that they let compete the Sharp Elite Pro LED twice. Only the Sharp Elite Pro LED competed twice in VE Shootouts. First time the Sharp Elite Pro LED won (VE 2011 Shootout). Second time (VE 2012 Shootout) it finished third (Winner was a Plasma and second was a Plasma). Seems to me that the experts were eager to show that two Plasma's outperformed the Sharp Elite Pro LED and abused the Shootout for that purpuse.

Hard to handle that a LED wins the Shootout smile.gif
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post #190 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

aim120, you are 100% correct. The entire room was filled with a/v enthusiasts and by the time the lights dimmed anyone who was not a plasma fan boy immediately converted, but for very good reasons and to just put that in two words I would say it's simply because of...... picture quality.

AVS Forum's own Newsbreaker, Mark Hanninger wrote a great article here.

And Robert has posted CNET's article and Twice's article. All very well written and supportive of Robert and his Shootout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

He's 100% correct?

He's claiming the room was pre-biased toward Panasonic.

You're concurring?

I need to learn how to use the smiley faces to make it clearer when I'm being sarcastic. What I was trying to say is the attendees became bias after they witnessed the Shootout wall and compared the LEDs against the plasma TVs. Plasma TVs looked a lot better in normal daytime ambient light and nighttime room light.
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post #191 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

It is a bit odd that they let compete the Sharp Elite Pro LED twice. Only the Sharp Elite Pro LED competed twice in VE Shootouts. First time the Sharp Elite Pro LED won (VE 2011 Shootout). Second time (VE 2012 Shootout) it finished third (Winner was a Plasma and second was a Plasma). Seems to me that the experts were eager to show that two Plasma's outperformed the Sharp Elite Pro LED and abused the Shootout for that purpuse.

Hard to handle that a LED wins the Shootout smile.gif
Or plasma Technology is superior!
The Sharp Elite was a great Full array LED LCD TV. The standard of it's kind. Which may be why it was in the comp twice. Edge lite LED LCDs have various problems that prevent then from being the best. I would love to own a Sharp Elite. Would of bought a 70" but the price was crazy high. So a top notch plasma at a lower price is just as good! And if you like the brightness of LED HDTVs the Samsung F8500 is there for the getting!
Great motion, saturated colors, brightness, and even lite screen! Panasonic offers great motion, shadow detail, great blacks and accurate colors! Something for everyone in the Samsung & Panasonic. Edge lite LEDs
Have more faults. But if you love them it's a free country and you buy one. No plot there for Plasmas to be rated at the top. Just is!
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post #192 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

Sad to say, but you where right. Definitely some questionable testing methods to say the least. At least, we know the 3 plasma models are all fairly close in black level performance when viewed in room with at least some ambient light, like is common with Joe Public. The extra brightness of the Samsung should really make it sell well and it fully deserves it Kuro Killer crown. Congrats to Samsung.

The testing and methodology was very professionally and clearly explained by Kevin Miller. Kevin is an ISF level ll instructor and knows how to test TVs and explain his testing methods and the video distribution, which was done perfectly and purely. No one who attended has any of the opinions that you are spewing and the room was filled with professional calibrators, and professional TV reviewers like David Katzmaier and many more.

They demonstrated the Shootout TVs in normal daytime light conditions and normal nighttime viewing conditions.
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post #193 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 03:18 PM
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were any uniformity tests done?
was any calibration done against more then 2 pin points of TV? Usually just one point / square that is about 10% or even less of panel area is used - IMHO.

How much day time light condition affected new Plasma TVs? Are those getting close to LCD tech for this matter?

thanks.
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post #194 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan View Post

Or plasma Technology is superior!
The Sharp Elite was a great Full array LED LCD TV. The standard of it's kind. Which may be why it was in the comp twice. Edge lite LED LCDs have various problems that prevent then from being the best. I would love to own a Sharp Elite. Would of bought a 70" but the price was crazy high. So a top notch plasma at a lower price is just as good! And if you like the brightness of LED HDTVs the Samsung F8500 is there for the getting!
Great motion, saturated colors, brightness, and even lite screen! Panasonic offers great motion, shadow detail, great blacks and accurate colors! Something for everyone in the Samsung & Panasonic. Edge lite LEDs
Have more faults. But if you love them it's a free country and you buy one. No plot there for Plasmas to be rated at the top. Just is!

wrong..it was allowed to compete twice because Sharp had a license to sell that tv for two years from Pioneer..they also manufactured the same tv for 2 years with no 2nd gen so technically it was still a current tv..but not because it was sooo good..not by a long shot
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post #195 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmoviefan 
Or plasma Technology is superior!
The Sharp Elite was a great Full array LED LCD TV. The standard of it's kind. Which may be why it was in the comp twice. Edge lite LED LCDs have various problems that prevent then from being the best. I would love to own a Sharp Elite. Would of bought a 70" but the price was crazy high. So a top notch plasma at a lower price is just as good! And if you like the brightness of LED HDTVs the Samsung F8500 is there for the getting!
Great motion, saturated colors, brightness, and even lite screen! Panasonic offers great motion, shadow detail, great blacks and accurate colors! Something for everyone in the Samsung & Panasonic. Edge lite LEDs
Have more faults. But if you love them it's a free country and you buy one. No plot there for Plasmas to be rated at the top. Just is!
My post is about a LED participating in the Shootout and becoming the champ. The first LED that beat... the Plasma's in the Shootout. And a year later this LED is the first and last TV which is allowed to paticipate twice and finishes third after... two Plasma's.

Folks knew upfront that if the Elite Pro LED would participate in 2012 that it would lose and that the two Plasma's would win because they had better PQ.

It is against the Shootout tradition that a TV participates twice. So the Elite Pro LED should not have been a part of the 2012 Shootout.

Seems to me that the experts were eager to show that two Plasma's outperformed the Elite Pro LED and abused the Shootout for that purpose.
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wrong..it was allowed to compete twice because Sharp had a license to sell that tv for two years from Pioneer..they also manufactured the same tv for 2 years with no 2nd gen so technically it was still a current tv..but not because it was sooo good..not by a long shot
ok. So the Elite Pro was allowed to participate twice because Sharp had a licence to sell that TV for two years from Pioneer. I do not see why the Shootout people should care about that...
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This thread is funny.
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post #197 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 05:26 PM
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This thread is funny.



You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little f'ed up maybe, this thread is funny how, I mean funny like being a clown, to amuse you? This thread is to make you laugh, it is here to F in' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is this thread funny? Was it funny when the Samsung was left in the wrong mode during the audience shootout? Was it funny when the LCD were pushed off axis of the main viewing area instead of the 3 across/ 2 row configuration of previous years? Was it funny when the the only 4K set was not allowed to show any native 4K material on Day 1? What do you mean funny, funny how? smile.gif
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post #198 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 05:27 PM
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This thread is funny.

I was just thinking something similar.

Well vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, was banned for silly reasons. And now vinnie_RIP is banned as well. The mark of an inexperienced moderator is to forget that their role is one of resource, not one of petulant authority and further that the members are doing the forum organization a favor by being here, not the other way around. They know darn well they screwed up here.
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post #199 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by schnura View Post

The testing and methodology was very professionally and clearly explained by Kevin Miller. Kevin is an ISF level ll instructor and knows how to test TVs and explain his testing methods and the video distribution, which was done perfectly and purely. No one who attended has any of the opinions that you are spewing and the room was filled with professional calibrators, and professional TV reviewers like David Katzmaier and many more.

They demonstrated the Shootout TVs in normal daytime light conditions and normal nighttime viewing conditions.

Kevin is also pure class. He spent several hours in my home doing my calibration last December and I'd recommend his work without hesitation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnura View Post


I need to learn how to use the smiley faces to make it clearer when I'm being sarcastic. What I was trying to say is the attendees became bias after they witnessed the Shootout wall and compared the LEDs against the plasma TVs. Plasma TVs looked a lot better in normal daytime ambient light and nighttime room light.

Yes, a good smile.gif helps convey that.

Sometimes, I use the [ sarcasm] tag too.

It wasn't obvious to me you were being sarcastic because, honestly, the earlier claims of bias were so out of bounds (from others), that I couldn't believe anyone would even level them.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #200 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 06:13 PM
 
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I was just thinking something similar.
It's a Ferris wheel on auto-pilot. Hold on tight, with all your might.
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You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little f'ed up maybe, this thread is funny how, I mean funny like being a clown, to amuse you? This thread is to make you laugh, it is here to F in' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is this thread funny? Was it funny when the Samsung was left in the wrong mode during the audience shootout? Was it funny when the LCD were pushed off axis of the main viewing area instead of the 3 across/ 2 row configuration of previous years? Was it funny when the the only 4K set was not allowed to show any native 4K material on Day 1? What do you mean funny, funny how? smile.gif
lol biggrin.gif I already gave a valid answer for your second question that was asked in the plasma forum and won't repeat myself. The first question ended up being immaterial since the F8500 was crowned the king anyway. The third one's a bitch, and I almost wish they had allowed the Sony 4K to shine to see just how inconsequential 4K it is in such an environment (the audience was surely no closer than 6 feet to the panels, until those instances in which they were given free reign to roam).
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post #201 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 06:58 PM
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You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little f'ed up maybe, this thread is funny how, I mean funny like being a clown, to amuse you? This thread is to make you laugh, it is here to F in' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is this thread funny? Was it funny when the Samsung was left in the wrong mode during the audience shootout? Was it funny when the LCD were pushed off axis of the main viewing area instead of the 3 across/ 2 row configuration of previous years? Was it funny when the the only 4K set was not allowed to show any native 4K material on Day 1? What do you mean funny, funny how? smile.gif

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It's a Ferris wheel on auto-pilot. Hold on tight, with all your might.
lol biggrin.gif I already gave a valid answer for your second question that was asked in the plasma forum and won't repeat myself. The first question ended up being immaterial since the F8500 was crowned the king anyway. The third one's a bitch, and I almost wish they had allowed the Sony 4K to shine to see just how inconsequential 4K it is in such an environment (the audience was surely no closer than 6 feet to the panels, until those instances in which they were given free reign to roam).

http://youtu.be/E84VqqCPI7w?t=55s
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post #202 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 07:00 PM
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You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little f'ed up maybe, this thread is funny how, I mean funny like being a clown, to amuse you? This thread is to make you laugh, it is here to F in' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is this thread funny? Was it funny when the Samsung was left in the wrong mode during the audience shootout? Was it funny when the LCD were pushed off axis of the main viewing area instead of the 3 across/ 2 row configuration of previous years? Was it funny when the the only 4K set was not allowed to show any native 4K material on Day 1? What do you mean funny, funny how? smile.gif

I kinna get you. I have not viewed the Sony yet. I know it's available for viewing in my City as I received an email from Magnolia to come view it.

Perhaps it's not a bias but scoring that should be revised. I don't recall the movies available with the Sony 4k but there should clearly be a segment that compares 1080P vs available 4k. It's a fair request.

I also think if scores are within .2 to .3 size should come into play. I try to remember that this is AVS but sometimes there is bias because of MSRP. Not just video but especially audio.

I am glad the plasma's did well. I owned Plasma in the past and recall that day I moved from a Sony 34 inch CRT XBR960 to a Pioneer 50 inch 5071. WOW. Happiest upgrade ever. 50 inch. Awesome display from Pioneer at time.

Fast forward Plasma looks better than ever, surpassing Kuro in my eyes and perhaps due to size.

Available sizes too small. Elite was incredible. Not an edge lit fan. Perhaps why the 4k Sony will fail? At least it's out there unlike imaginary OLED. Is the 84 available yet? I'm sure an 84 pushing one of their hard drive movies is spectacular. Price should not factor. 84 inch 4k must look great!

I might agree that this forum is biased towards Kuro and Panasonic. Opinion only...

I hope Sharp and Sony continue to bring large displays to folks like me that appreciate such an effort.. You can have an incredible picture and 70 plus.

Sharp had a great display. Glad I was able to get in on the ride. What is left? A 65 inch plasma? Never. What happened to larger plasma? And my thoughts sometimes are not with cayan but yellow. Sometimes a bit too much. Nothing is perfect but this display is pretty damn good in all areas. Umm especially sports and Blu-ray. Priceless.

I am afraid larger plasma is dead and not to be..Samsung?

Rick

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post #203 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 09:58 PM
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Sharp had a great display. Glad I was able to get in on the ride. What is left? A 65 inch plasma? Never. What happened to larger plasma?

152" is too small for you?

http://panasonic.net/prodisplays/download/pdf/specsheet/TH-152UX1_E.pdf

4k screen, 1.1 metric tonnes gross weight (2,424 pounds), 2.62 kW average power consumption (rated up to 3.7 kW) and yours for 600,000 of our British Pounds or approx. 0.91 million US Dollars (might be cheaper over there).

What's not to like?
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post #204 of 231 Old 05-15-2013, 10:50 PM
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152" is too small for you?

http://panasonic.net/prodisplays/download/pdf/specsheet/TH-152UX1_E.pdf

4k screen, 1.1 metric tonnes gross weight (2,424 pounds), 2.62 kW average power consumption (rated up to 3.7 kW) and yours for 600,000 of our British Pounds or approx. 0.91 million US Dollars (might be cheaper over there).

What's not to like?

500,000 USD it seems, at least thats the catalogue price. http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=490650&catGroupId=14624&displayTab=O
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post #205 of 231 Old 05-16-2013, 07:45 AM
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ok. So the Elite Pro was allowed to participate twice because Sharp had a licence to sell that TV for two years from Pioneer. I do not see why the Shootout people should care about that...

it's supposed to be this year's model..otherwise the Kuro 151/111's would be allowed in every year and would win every year..LOL:D

ps: they still bring one Kuro back every year for reference..not a Sharp Elite
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post #206 of 231 Old 05-16-2013, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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post #207 of 231 Old 05-16-2013, 10:17 AM
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Doesn't the shootout just prove that LCD sucks?
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post #208 of 231 Old 05-16-2013, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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No, it just proves that in a videophile environment, the ones at the shootout were not the best.

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Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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post #209 of 231 Old 05-16-2013, 10:26 AM
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Which ones in a videophile environment would be the best?
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post #210 of 231 Old 05-16-2013, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Which ones in a videophile environment would be the best?

Looking at the scores, it is pretty obvious.

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Pioneer Kuro Elite Pro-111FD
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Displays are like 100% cotton t-shirts. Always buy a size larger than you think you'll need, as they tend to shrink over time.
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