2013: If Sony does move to LG panels, is it possibly the end of Sony PQ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure how refer to this, because I'm not completely comfortable asking for uber-speculation.

I just do not stand alone in disappointment with the PQ of the LG IPS panels in 2012. Their passive 3D mastery is certainly the most surprisingly impressive thing I've seen, but even their 2012 "flagship" model LM9600 had endless complaints about DSE, Bleed/Flashlighting, Clouding, and other generalized mayhem.

Further, I am very unimpressed with LG's off-angle (off-axis) viewing.

The 2013 Sony W802A line is supposedly (3rd hand from AVS member who spoke to someone at Sony) the rough replacement for the 2012 HX750 (except for passive-3D primarily). I'm guessing (<---Note) that the 2013 R550A/R520A line is a rough replacement for the 2012 EX645/EX640.

I'm further wondering that if (if) the Sony TV is having financial difficulty, are they targeting their TVs to the next tier down market? Even eventually the 4K line?

I'm looking for insight any might have.

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post #2 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 08:53 AM
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You pose an interesting question. It seems that LG panel quality has taken a small downward spiral since about 2011-12, at least according to the complaints posted here. I have a 2010 LG with the S-IPS panel and it looks as sharp and clean, with very good off-axis viewing, as it did the day I brought it home. It seems that 2010 was a good year for some tv mfrs but since then...... not sure why.
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post #3 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Otto Pylot View Post

You pose an interesting question. It seems that LG panel quality has taken a small downward spiral since about 2011-12, at least according to the complaints posted here. I have a 2010 LG with the S-IPS panel and it looks as sharp and clean, with very good off-axis viewing, as it did the day I brought it home. It seems that 2010 was a good year for some tv mfrs but since then...... not sure why.

Does your 2010 bleed? What model?

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post #4 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 09:15 AM
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Does your 2010 bleed? What model?

No. But it's not a plasma. It's the LD520.
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post #5 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 11:00 AM
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I doubt very much Sony is targeting a move downmarket.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #6 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Does your 2010 bleed? What model?

No. But it's not a plasma. It's the LD520.

The edge-bleed I mean (aka colloquially as LG's infamous "bleed"). That's obviously an LCD issue. Perhaps LG over-did the rush to thin before their light technology tolerances could catch up.

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post #7 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

The edge-bleed I mean (aka colloquially as LG's infamous "bleed"). That's obviously an LCD issue. Perhaps LG over-did the rush to thin before their light technology tolerances could catch up.

Nope. No bleed at all (at least none that I see that affects pq).
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post #8 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Does there exist a way for Sony to have manufactured their own passive panels? LG's seem to be IPS, but I'm not convinced that's a requirement for passive, despite what their propaganda site says.

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post #9 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 01:08 PM
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I own a 2012 model LG 47LM6400. It has barely noticeable bleed or banding, especially compared to the 2010 model Sony EX-710 it replaced. It's off-angle performance is also far better. If this is the result of it's LG panel I'd say Sony is doing the right thing if indeed they are buying ips panels from them. BTW we just bought a Sony KDL40R450 2013 model for another room. It's direct lit, not edge lit, being an entry level model. It's black levels are nonetheless very good and it has no discernible bleed or banding but it's off/angle performance is definitely inferior to the LG (not a problem as there are no seating positions in that room that are off-center enough to make this obvious), which indicates to me that it's not an ips panel.

I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work. The LG IPS panels on the LG and Panny sets where I work vs 2012 Samsung and Sony models bear this out.

To say that buying panels from LG will mean the end of Sony pq is, imho, laughable.

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post #10 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I own a 2012 model LG 47LM6400. It has barely noticeable bleed or banding, especially compared to the 2010 model Sony EX-710 it replaced. It's off-angle performance is also far better. If this is the result of it's LG panel I'd say Sony is doing the right thing if indeed they are buying ips panels from them. BTW we just bought a Sony KDL40R450 2013 model for another room. It's direct lit, not edge lit, being an entry level model. It's black levels are nonetheless very good and it has no discernible bleed or banding but it's off/angle performance is definitely inferior to the LG (not a problem as there are no seating positions in that room that are off-center enough to make this obvious), which indicates to me that it's not an ips panel.

I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work. The LG IPS panels on the LG and Panny sets where I work vs 2012 Samsung and Sony models bear this out.

To say that buying panels from LG will mean the end of Sony pq is, imho, laughable.

Hardly laughable. If you want to agree to disagree, then so be it. I'm up for that. That's what this forum is great at.

But bleed is a considerable problem with the 2012s, and no, not just what some people seem to think is endemic to all edge-lits. And common DSE & clouding. Look at the LG forums, and look at the complaints in the Sony forums. Look at the LM 7600/8600/7200 forums.

Now forums do tend to collect the complaints. So comparing the complaints of the Sonys mid to higher tier TVs to the LGs, and I just don't see anything "laughable" about it at all. Forget the edge's even: Look at how angry the folks are about the LG flagship, the LM9600. Actually, I find this direct comparison to the sony HX850 kinda humorous (the sony was $1000 less). Look at 1:20 or so on. http://cnettv.cnet.com/lg-great-design-masks-problematic-picture-quality/9742-1_53-50124818.html I think "muddy" was one of his terms.

Now here's a bottom line for me: when viewing everything side by side, nearly every Sony *BEAT* every LG I saw for off-axis (off-angle) viewing. The IPS "178°" in my opinion, while great on paper, does not pan out IRL. Hoozthatat put it fairly well with his particular target of ire:
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The LG LM6700 uses one of their IPS panels and the off axis viewing is the worst I've seen on any FP in a long time. Absolutely horrible.
Of course that's just one of the issues on a long list of issues with that FP.

I can't speak for your showfloor experience here, but mine seems clearly different.

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post #11 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 03:39 PM
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[quote name="Steve S" url="/t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq#post_23104279"
I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work. [/quote]

Yeah, my 65LW6500 (2011 model) has good off angle performance, nearly 45 degrees each way from dead center I'd estimate. Maybe I'll have to get out my speed square and string line to double-check that.

You can criticize LG IPS panels for a some things, but off angle view isn't one of them. Not if my TV is any indication.

I could wish mine had better blacks and contrast, for instance. I read a U.K. review that pegged the native contrast at 1,600:1, not great, to be sure, but not terrible. The non-uniformity doesn't bother me, since it's minor and only apparent when switching to an inactive input, not while watching content. Passive 3D was the determining factor, I'll admit. When I got mine, the only other passive set in 65" size was a Vizio.

Had passive 3D not been a requirement for me, I almost certainly would have gotten something else. Still, for anyone to give the strong impression that LG is junk... is not fair, IMO.
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post #12 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

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I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work.

Yeah, my 65LW6500 (2011 model) has good off angle performance, nearly 45 degrees each way from dead center I'd estimate.

Curious. (No sarcasm) is that viewing angle impressive to you?

Quote:
Had passive 3D not been a requirement for me, I almost certainly would have gotten something else. Still, for anyone to give the strong impression that LG is junk... is not fair, IMO.

Junk? No. But the problems I listed are real. It may seem that I'm over-stating things, but my worry is amplified because I've been impressed by what I see from Sony in general, and I've similarly been disappointed by LG.

I suppose we'll see in a month or so (for the 802 & 550 at least).

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post #13 of 35 Old 03-20-2013, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Curious. (No sarcasm) is that viewing angle impressive to you?

Impressive? No, but many (most?) LCDs I've seen are worse. And you did say LGs had *bad* viewing angle performance. Just to be clear, when I say 45 degrees, I mean that's where I can first detect a hint of washout in, say skin tones. One can actually move a good deal further off axis before it's obvious. Obvious even to my wife, that is.tongue.gif

As to other attributes, my LG is pretty mediocre. Dunno about current models.
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post #14 of 35 Old 03-21-2013, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93 View Post

Quote:
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Curious. (No sarcasm) is that viewing angle impressive to you?

Impressive? No, but many (most?) LCDs I've seen are worse. And you did say LGs had *bad* viewing angle performance. Just to be clear, when I say 45 degrees, I mean that's where I can first detect a hint of washout in, say skin tones.

Yes, to be clear, I did say that LG's had bad viewing angle performance, and I still insist it does. True, I'm primarily confining this discussion to the on-topic comparison to Sony's price-equivalent sets, but relative to what the LG's cost in general, it really disappoints me. Further, the routine spiking of the IPS football with "178° viewing angle" further exacerbates the disappointment. But that's not their biggest problem. Their biggest problems by far are the bleed and clouding.

Quote:
As to other attributes, my LG is pretty mediocre. Dunno about current models.

While "Mediocre" steps us into semantics, "Mediocre" is just not what the Sony mid to upper tier is known for, I'm sorry. The bottom line is side by side comparisons, AND comparisons of review complaints. And, I'd reiterate that my worry has to do with the most recent evidence of LG PQ (2012).

Enough of this, your observations are valuable. But there will be detractors and proponents of everything if you broaden the sample far enough (even proponents for Vizio rolleyes.gif). I'm worried about what happens on aggregate.

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post #15 of 35 Old 03-21-2013, 09:36 AM
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Not to drag this out, but with viewing angles it's hard to be precise. As I alluded to when I wrote that my wife doesn't see it quite like I do.

Then there are the utterly ridiculous claims in LCD specs. One hundred seventy-odd degrees viewing angle? Really? That's as useless as (dynamic) contrast ratio claims. Or when Cnet reviews talk about viewing angles and don't explain adequately what they mean. Good, average, bad, what the hell? No numbers?

Anyway, I get what you're saying about LG. Their products aren't...hmm...going to impress videophiles.
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post #16 of 35 Old 03-21-2013, 01:46 PM
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Sony partnered with LG because it isn't going with Samsung any longer and it is actually staking it's future on OLED in a joint venture with Panasonic.

I've seen both the LG ans Sony 4K set side by side and they both have the same panel, but the Sony looked better and so far it is reviewing better overall so ifeel confidnet that Sony will make full use of the LG panels if it wants and still provide a good picture.

It will be a few years before OLED can be Sony's one and only panel tech to cover the market and i really doubt they would start pumping out inferior quality LG panel based units and further erode their market position just as they are trying to ramp up OLED.

They really need the sales now and likely 2013 and 2014 are their last chance to do anything in LCD that would help establish them as leaders again.

Sony is going to push 4K hard with it's forthcoming streaming service and the Playstation 4 in the fall too. All that push wouldn't line up with sub-par TV models.

If anything Sony is just going to narrow the models it offers and let LG fight Samsung in the cheap market and push premium features like gorilla glass and real speakers.

If Sony can pull off a successful 4K transition it will be in a really good spot together with Panasonic for OLED over LG and Samsung and Sony has a big stake in the game for 4K movies and production. They cannot afford to toss what little market share it has left and go cutting out quality.
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post #17 of 35 Old 03-25-2013, 02:04 PM
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According to this announcement their XBR8 series is being replaced with KDL-W900A based on QD Vision quantum dot technology and has begun shipping to stores. Since quantities aren't mentioned, I suspect they are floor demos, but I hope I'm wrong about that.
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post #18 of 35 Old 04-03-2013, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Fundamental question (albeit clumsily worded):

If Sony uses an LG panel, where do the technologies for motion (pulse additives) and edge lighting precision (avoiding bleed) lie?

(I'm assuming they cannot touch the lighting, is this right?) Is that LGs technology (again, a 2012 disappointment) or Sony's?

And what of the Sony motion handling? I have often thought that superior across their 2012 line.

IOW, what makes a purchased panel a panel, how much of Sony is in the Sony LG-panel TV and where is the line drawn?

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post #19 of 35 Old 04-03-2013, 12:33 PM
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The edge lighting might or might not be purchased with the panel. It usually is but that's not always true. There are so-called "open cell" sales of panels only where the BLU (backlight unit) is added by the buyer, not the seller. Most sales include the whole LCD "module" with BLU.

That said, it's still up to assembly/manufacturing to not blow the light-guide tolerances and such to avoid bleed and get uniformity nailed. Sony has a lot of control no matter what they source.

As for motion handling, that's likely to be mostly panel independent, too, although panels that are bad with motion (if any exist) can't be fixed in the processing.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #20 of 35 Old 04-03-2013, 10:06 PM
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i dont really see how you can put emphasis on " Sony PQ" when they refused to produce anything but a technology that was inferior in PQ from the beginning to this day.
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post #21 of 35 Old 04-03-2013, 11:38 PM
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i dont really see how you can put emphasis on " Sony PQ" when they refused to produce anything but a technology that was inferior in PQ from the beginning to this day.

I'm not emphasizing Sony anything. I have criticized their insane decision to produce none of the key components in any of their important displays at any point in the flat-panel era.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #22 of 35 Old 04-04-2013, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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i dont really see how you can put emphasis on " Sony PQ" when they refused to produce anything but a technology that was inferior in PQ from the beginning to this day.

I'm not emphasizing Sony anything. I have criticized their insane decision to produce none of the key components in any of their important displays at any point in the flat-panel era.

I'm guessing he was probably talking to me and my pondering "is it possibly the end of Sony PQ". I think the XBR and high end KDL's look fantastic. But the entire discussion involves a relative measure (Sony vs. LG), not some measure of Sony vs. the world, and regarding the upper tier of their respective models, if someone thinks that the 2012 LGs could hold a candle to the 2012 Sonys then I don't believe they were paying attention when they saw a 2012 LG or 2012 Sony.

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post #23 of 35 Old 04-04-2013, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Hasn't Panasonic also started using LG LCD panels?

Yep. I didn't like their 2012 ET5, but I am keeping a verrrrry close eye on their new line (if any information ever comes out ) to see if anything is a conversation-stopper.

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post #24 of 35 Old 04-04-2013, 08:51 AM
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I'm not emphasizing Sony anything. I have criticized their insane decision to produce none of the key components in any of their important displays at any point in the flat-panel era.

I blame a certain Sony CEO (Sir hoo-haw whatever) who was probably more interested in hobnobbing with celebrities in the Sony music and movie studio divisions than in maintaining the R&D folks who gave us the trinitron and so many other technical advances.smile.gif (I know, simplistic answer but I love to needle the Brits)

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post #25 of 35 Old 04-08-2013, 09:01 AM
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Was asked to post this here as this may affect Sony in the future. Displaysearch has reported that LG Chemical is now selling the FPR film for inclusion on panels to AUO and BOE (China, also CEC-Panda, and China Star are expected to introduce their own FPR type panels this year) so there will be TV's with passive 3D with panel types other than IPS. Sony does have relationships with AUO so its conceivable that some models will be using AUO MVA panels. It is also stated that Sharp is expected to introduce passive 3D in the future. It's unclear whether Sharp will also purchase it from LG Chemical or whether they are developing their own version of the film (and no word on what it means for Sharp's Active 3D, but I imagine they could run both). Good news all the way around.
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post #26 of 35 Old 04-08-2013, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks bargugl!

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post #27 of 35 Old 05-15-2013, 06:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, the KDL-60R550A (a $1750 price point set if you want a stake in the sand) is showing *horrible* DSE, similar to what I've seen on other LG branded IPS sets. No harsh bleed however.

Debating whether or not to do the return 2-step and risk a worse set. My wife hated it when I returned the Samsung 2 years ago. Oye.

As always, I think I bought "a couple years too soon". THAT phenomenon, however, is likely to never change.

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post #28 of 35 Old 05-15-2013, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Ok, the KDL-60R550A (a $1750 price point set if you want a stake in the sand) is showing *horrible* DSE, similar to what I've seen on other LG branded IPS sets. No harsh bleed however.

Debating whether or not to do the return 2-step and risk a worse set. My wife hated it when I returned the Samsung 2 years ago. Oye.

As always, I think I bought "a couple years too soon". THAT phenomenon, however, is likely to never change.

How does the sub pixels look like ? If they like chevron logo tilted to the left or right ,then its a IPS panel.
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post #29 of 35 Old 05-15-2013, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Was asked to post this here as this may affect Sony in the future. Displaysearch has reported that LG Chemical is now selling the FPR film for inclusion on panels to AUO and BOE (China, also CEC-Panda, and China Star are expected to introduce their own FPR type panels this year) so there will be TV's with passive 3D with panel types other than IPS. Sony does have relationships with AUO so its conceivable that some models will be using AUO MVA panels. It is also stated that Sharp is expected to introduce passive 3D in the future. It's unclear whether Sharp will also purchase it from LG Chemical or whether they are developing their own version of the film (and no word on what it means for Sharp's Active 3D, but I imagine they could run both). Good news all the way around.

The AUO non-IPS passive 3D's are certainly a great bunch of news. However, when "this year" is mentioned, that means 2013 model TVs or 2014 model TVs? It'd be nice to see XBR quality panels that are passive.

Well Vinnie97, one of the kindest and most helpful and respected members here, got one of these. I wonder how much longer before I get such a message...
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post #30 of 35 Old 05-15-2013, 10:25 AM
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The AUO non-IPS passive 3D's are certainly a great bunch of news. However, when "this year" is mentioned, that means 2013 model TVs or 2014 model TVs? It'd be nice to see XBR quality panels that are passive.

The Sony 4k models already have a AUO AMVA passive 3d panels.
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