Laser Phosphor Display (LPD) Technology - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 05-29-2013, 02:53 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.prysm.com/technology/overview/

For those of us that miss some of the CRT qualities. Too bad there are no consumer displays based on this tech.
Some points of interest (taken from this display's spec sheet):
- Contrast Ratio - Sequential >40,000:1 (true blacks)
- Phosphor Fill Factor (%) 91% (much higher fill than LCD displays)
- Viewing Angle 178° (no color shifts of brightness drop offs, unlike LCDs)
- Scan/Field Rate (Hz) 200 | 239.76 | 300 | 359.64 (it means it can potentially provide true 240/360 Hz refresh rate when the bandwidth limitations will get out of the way)
- Frame Rate (Hz) 100 | 119.88 | 150 | 179.82 (real supported frame rates)
- Pixel Rise Time (ms) <0.003 (no blur)
- Color Processing 14 bits per RGB color (close to analogue bit depth)

The disadvantage is, of course, the weigth and size and resolution of current displays.
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post #2 of 42 Old 05-30-2013, 01:42 AM
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This is projection, and thus has no chance of ever being important.

Also, sequential contrast of 40,000:1 is totally unimpressive. Simultaneous contrast of 40,000:1 is impressive.

91% fill factor is also unimpressive compares to, say, LCOS, which already exists and has been commercialized.

High viewing angles are not impressive for projection technologies.

Otherwise, this sounds impressive...

rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #3 of 42 Old 05-30-2013, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
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rogo, nice points. But high-end CRTs specified only 30,000:1 sequential contrast and still the blacks they produced remain unbeaten to this day (with exception of OLEDs). Supposedly this tech also has the capability to produce absolute blacks: "Deep blacks and high contrast ratios are achieved by simply turning off lasers". Also, if you call this a projection technology you should also call CRT so. On wikipedia this tech is also compared to CRT.

Edit: My next post is going to be 666 eek.gif
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post #4 of 42 Old 05-30-2013, 08:37 AM
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This is an amazing display for the perspective of jumbotron usage!
I have loved CRT's, especially since I had the NEC XG135 CRT projector.
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- Pixel Rise Time (ms) <0.003 (no blur)
Pixel rise time, alone, does not solve blur.
See Why Do Some OLED's Have Motion Blur? as well as Scientific References.

You need both fast rise and fall, to eliminate motion blur caused by the sample-and-hold effect. That said, fortunately, laser phosphor display probably meets both attributes; but this should always be pointed out accurately. I wonder if they use short-persistence phosphor or long-persistence phosphor, but I would assume that it would be quite similar to CRT behavior.

For the sake of scientific accuracy, it is important to understand this & spread information accurately.

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post #5 of 42 Old 05-30-2013, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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A just remark, Mark (pun unintended smile.gif). I wrote to Prysm pointing to this thread, so if they're potentially interested in consumer market I'm sure they'll chime in.
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post #6 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Elix View Post

rogo, nice points. But high-end CRTs specified only 30,000:1 sequential contrast and still the blacks they produced remain unbeaten to this day (with exception of OLEDs). Supposedly this tech also has the capability to produce absolute blacks: "Deep blacks and high contrast ratios are achieved by simply turning off lasers". Also, if you call this a projection technology you should also call CRT so. On wikipedia this tech is also compared to CRT.
:

Listen, CRT is dead. Maybe we should all get over it?

CRTs were awfully dim and had terrible ANSI contrast. Yes, they made great black. Yippee... We have better now; let's not go backward. 30,000:1 ANSI or bust... Sequential, you want the ability to do much more, OK?
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This is an amazing display for the perspective of jumbotron usage!

So I was just in Las Vegas and across the street from City Center, over the entrance to Planet Hollywood is a "jumbotron" so good I am not persuaded there is a need to improve that technology. It was displaying HD quality motion video and when we sat at lunch in Milos at Cosmopolitan, I was flat out mesmerized by it. When we walked out of Aria several times, I had to just stop and look. When was the last time a display captivated me like that? I have no idea. Oh, and and it was seriously curved to boot.

I'd love to know whose tech that is, but the point is that I believe "jumbotron" screen tech doesn't really need much more refining, This thing was flat out awesome.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #7 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Listen, CRT is dead. Maybe we should all get over it?
It's alive as long as you can get one and use it. Its days are counted, I agree. But not yet. As soon as my FW900 is dead, I'm over it. But not any sooner.
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CRTs were awfully dim and had terrible ANSI contrast. Yes, they made great black. Yippee...
I can only speak for myself. I have a 6500-hours-used Sony FW900 (which is considered one of the best, if not the best, consumer CRT monitor) which has true blacks (can't say it's ON in a completely blacked-out room; look, I even tried measuring contrast ratio here; 30 seconds shutter and still "underexposed"), 220:1 ANSI contrast (doesn't look half as bad as the number itself), 90-100 cd/m2 (which is more than enough for a light-controlled environment), fully resolves 1080p+ (if you don't believe it I can post some shots later). I can only imagine what quality would CRTs be if they were still being produced today. But let's not turn this topic into another CRT vs. LCD (analog vs. digital) thread.
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I'd love to know whose tech that is
Maybe the same tech as discussed in this topic?
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post #8 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 02:53 PM
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CRTs were awfully dim and had terrible ANSI contrast.
N/A to laser-excited phosphor displays.
Lasers can be far, far, far, far higher power than electron beams.
Sunlight visible. And you don't need a vaccuum.

That said, I'm also impressed by modern LED jumbotrons too. The newer jumbotrons with >10bit or 12bit quality, with new fresh LED's, produce an amazing color gamut when properly calibrated (virtually perfect blacks & dazzling consistent brilliant whites, without any digital stepping effects in between, found in older LED jumbotrons). They are very impressive nowadays, and now come in full HD versions (1080p+, future 4K jumbotrons are already in the works!). The world's biggest jumbotrons already exceed 1080p exceeding 6 million LED's, and upcoming 4K jumbotrons will have an amazing 24 million discrete LED's. Mind you, when LED jumbotrons start to wear down after a few years, they start looking 'speckly' with worn LED's, uneven wear and tear, and segments that are failing. I think LED jumbotrons are more reliable nowadays, but I wonder if laser-excited phosphor displays are more wear-resistant when run over years. They might fill the middle gap between large jumbotrons and large plasmas since LED jumbotrons are often still too low-resolution for small jumbotrons (e.g. indoor shopping mall walls that you walk up close to).

Sadly, while these jumbotrons now have impressive color (for fresh installations), these displays are sample-and-hold. They have a lot of motion blur during daytime, because the LED's have to be driven nearly full-time (not much pulse-modulation) to stay bright for sunlight visibility. Daytime sports games. It may not matter to most people, but it is noticeable to my eyes. The typical sample-and-hold Jumbotron creates motion blur on jumbotrons that makes them worse than home TV's. Some of them probably now use frame interpolation as a sample-and-hold workaround, but we know the pros/cons of interpolation. That said, I notice many jumbotrons use PWM for dimming during nighttime; (albiet not always at the one-pulse-per-refresh necessary to eliminate motion blur). Imagine a NASCAR jumbotron with an MPRT measurement of 1 millisecond; LED can't do that just yet at daytime brightness levels.

I think LED will stay the winner for jumbotrons, but I certainly see niches that the laser-excited phosphor displays can fill.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #9 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 10:38 PM
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rogo: In the next 15 years do you see ANY new technology other than OLED and LCD making it? Would any have a 1 out of a hundred chance?

I feel like the reign of LCD is like in the movie EXCALIBUR when the people turn on the knights!
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post #10 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

- Color Processing 14 bits per RGB color (close to analogue bit depth)
Film was not that good and 12-bit nonlinear RGB exceeds what film can show. As for 14-bit RGB video processing there have been consumer LCD displays on the market for years that have been capable of it. What really matters is what LPD displays can show and since the company doesn't mention it I am guessing 8-bit RGB.

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The disadvantage is, of course, the weigth and size and resolution of current displays.
A resolution of 320x240 does make it a bit hard to be get excited about it. Also one other disadvantage of LPD would be that it only covers 89% of the Rec. 709 color space. CRT displays had a limited color space due to their phosphors and it looks like LPD shares that weakness.
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post #11 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 11:51 AM
 
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Listen, CRT is dead. Maybe we should all get over it?

How can he say that about CRT and I can't say the same about plasma when both are equally true?
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post #12 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 11:54 AM
 
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Because it isn't? On life support doesn't imply death. Last time I checked (last week, in fact), Best Buy, America's biggest electronics retailer, has both Samsung and Panasonic PDPs in prominent viewing positions, and they don't have a single CRT for sale.
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Because it isn't? On life support doesn't imply death. Last time I checked (last week, in fact), Best Buy, America's biggest electronics retailer, has both Samsung and Panasonic PDPs in prominent viewing positions, and they don't have a single CRT for sale.

No wonder Best Buy is on the way out. Go into Best Buy and you can hardly find plasma except in the high end section at Magnolia. Let's face it, good or bad, LED has killed plasma. The general public overwhelmingly sees Plasma as your grand daddies TV, that's just the reality. Best Buy selection of Plasma is sparse at best (no pun intended).
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post #14 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 12:22 PM
 
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Well, in part that's because you can only find plasma from 3 manufacturers. It was prominent enough (showing Avatar set up next to an LED) at the satellite (no Magnolia) Best Buy I checked. There's actually a local furniture store (the biggest in this region) seeking to stay in business that hasn't bothered ordering any Panasonic or Samsung plasmas this year (didn't ask about LG), so, while anecdotal, that's another data point that doesn't portend well. Haven't checked the local Walmarts to see if they've dumped all semblance of plasma (wouldn't surprise me). This doesn't suggest plasma is dead, just waning and undergoing its initial death throes. Why this makes you excited I don't know.
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Well, in part that's because you can only find plasma from 3 manufacturers. It was prominent enough (showing Avatar set up next to an LED) at the satellite (no Magnolia) Best Buy I checked. There's actually a local furniture store (the biggest in this region) seeking to stay in business that hasn't bothered ordering any Panasonic or Samsung plasmas this year (didn't ask about LG), so, while anecdotal, that's another data point that doesn't portend well. Haven't checked the local Walmarts to see if they've dumped all semblance of plasma (wouldn't surprise me). This doesn't suggest plasma is dead, just waning and undergoing its initial death throes. Why this makes you excited I don't know.

Personally speaking, I like Plasma right now because you can get a pretty good one at much cheaper price than a comparable LED, although there are some flaws in PDP technology that are still present that bother me, but overall I must agree they represent a nice bang for the buck.
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I suppose that's true for every tech, and both of the display techs have made strides in improvements over the years. It's always been about picking your poison, and the Plasma pill has been the most agreeable with me for my viewing preferences. wink.gif
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post #17 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

It's alive as long as you can get one and use it

They aren't produced... So they are dead...
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Originally Posted by Mark Rejhon View Post

That said, I'm also impressed by modern LED jumbotrons too.
......
I think LED will stay the winner for jumbotrons, but I certainly see niches that the laser-excited phosphor displays can fill.

Fascinating analysis.
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rogo: In the next 15 years do you see ANY new technology other than OLED and LCD making it? Would any have a 1 out of a hundred chance?

I feel like the reign of LCD is like in the movie EXCALIBUR when the people turn on the knights!

Um, over 15 years? Yes, that's possible. Over 5 years? OLED barely has a chance of "making it". If I were guessing, over the next year 15s, the chance of some non-LCD or non-OLED flat-panel tech reaching the market and being meaningfully commercialized is probably in the 2-5% range.
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Because it isn't? On life support doesn't imply death. Last time I checked (last week, in fact), Best Buy, America's biggest electronics retailer, has both Samsung and Panasonic PDPs in prominent viewing positions, and they don't have a single CRT for sale.

^ This.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #18 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 01:35 PM
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Where I work we still carry Panny, Samsung, and LG plasmas. Many customers are attracted to the picture quality or price but run screaming when told it's a plasma--too much led Kool-Aid out there (that being said my own set's an led/lcd).

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post #19 of 42 Old 06-02-2013, 02:34 PM
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I can't imagine another 15 years of LCD that sucks! I believe LCD for the next 15 years might make the world end!

Beware the LCD only world wide domination horror story apocalyptic holocaust!

P.S. Do you have to refill plasmas with gas at the 15 year mark?
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post #20 of 42 Old 06-03-2013, 12:32 AM
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Sad thing is, if I ever get a plasma TV next year, chances are my Sony FW900 and BVM will outlast it. Having seen Samsung F8500, I will not be missing the FW900 anymore, but I like the F8500 and the Trinitron BVM equally for my needs. (games) I decided not to buy the F8500 because of input lag issues, but PQ wise, it's near perfect.
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post #21 of 42 Old 06-03-2013, 01:58 AM - Thread Starter
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And not a single f*** was given that day about LPD itself... Come on, guys, let's not make this another VS. thread.
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post #22 of 42 Old 06-03-2013, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Also, sequential contrast of 40,000:1 is totally unimpressive. Simultaneous contrast of 40,000:1 is impressive.
40,000:1 is impressive if it has CRT-like gradation. Anything else with contrast approaching that is nowhere close.
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91% fill factor is also unimpressive compares to, say, LCOS, which already exists and has been commercialized.
Agreed.
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CRTs were awfully dim and had terrible ANSI contrast.
CRTs could easily reach 100 nits and stay there when calibrated. That's reference level brightness, and more than I like in a darkened room. (projectors are 48 nits)
Good luck finding a Plasma display that you can calibrate to 100 nits which will stay there without the ABL dimming it significantly. (CRT ABL was less than 5% on the better models - most Plasmas are 50%)

It's true that they were far too dim for daylight viewing though.
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Yes, they made great black. Yippee... We have better now; let's not go backward. 30,000:1 ANSI or bust... Sequential, you want the ability to do much more, OK?
Honestly, I think how good a well calibrated CRT still looks today, shows what little importance ANSI has relative to sequential contrast. CRTs were maybe 2% ANSI relative to their sequential contrast, and most flat panels achieve at least 50% ANSI these days.
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I'd love to know whose tech that is, but the point is that I believe "jumbotron" screen tech doesn't really need much more refining, This thing was flat out awesome.
That would be Sony (jumbotron) and this is why Crystal LED was exciting.
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Film was not that good and 12-bit nonlinear RGB exceeds what film can show. As for 14-bit RGB video processing there have been consumer LCD displays on the market for years that have been capable of it. What really matters is what LPD displays can show and since the company doesn't mention it I am guessing 8-bit RGB.
Internal processing maybe, but few panels are even 10-bit native today, and even those which are, with all the processing required to bring flat panels into line, it could be argued that few have gradation close to sending a CRT an 8-bit signal.
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Sad thing is, if I ever get a plasma TV next year, chances are my Sony FW900 and BVM will outlast it. Having seen Samsung F8500, I will not be missing the FW900 anymore, but I like the F8500 and the Trinitron BVM equally for my needs. (games) I decided not to buy the F8500 because of input lag issues, but PQ wise, it's near perfect.
Even though I haven't really been gaming for some time now, I have found myself looking at BVM listings again recently. As good as modern flat panels may measure, image quality just isn't anywhere close to a good CRT. If only they were larger.
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post #23 of 42 Old 06-03-2013, 12:23 PM
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Even though I haven't really been gaming for some time now, I have found myself looking at BVM listings again recently. As good as modern flat panels may measure, image quality just isn't anywhere close to a good CRT. If only they were larger.

One thing I would never complain about my BVM is the brightness. Sometimes, it's actually too much and the CRT's rapid ramping up of the brightness because of its procedural contrast nature, actually hurt my eyes like hell that I really love it. Compared to this, even the Samsung F8500's brightness and ABL were very disappointing. (LOL) But the procedural contrast is a beautiful thing depending on contents. In games where heavy flashes of light is followed by rain in the dark, the BVM and the XBR960 handles this very well. The same content on the FW900 and the F8500 is not as dynamic because they are designed for stability first. Able to handle 1080p or not, I no longer want to play my games on the FW900 with its neutered dynamic contrast ratio.
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post #24 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 02:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I no longer want to play my games on the FW900 with its neutered dynamic contrast ratio.
You lost me there. What are you talking about?
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post #25 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 06:11 AM
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You lost me there. What are you talking about?
The GDM-FW900 is a computer monitor that many gamers have taken a liking to, due to its excellent image quality and high bandwidth that allows for high resolutions to be displayed at high refresh rates.

Computer monitors often have slower phosphors which produce a more stable image (less flicker) at the cost of motion performance or being able to quickly change from white-to-black or vice-versa.
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post #26 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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So, he was talking about phosphor decay time... The term "dynamic contrast" in relation to CRT set me off. Sony BVM monitors use simulation grade phosphors?
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post #27 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 01:21 PM
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Chron, re: your above post, a lot of really good points...

I'm not sure the screen at Planet Hollywood is, in fact, Sony even though I am aware Sony is the brand behind Jumbotron.

Are you certain they are the ones doing those displays? I mean, they might be.. I just don't know; the setup seemed to carry no mfr. branding.

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working.
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post #28 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
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Jumbotron.
It's somewhat of a genericized trademark -- I should call them "video walls" or "video billboards" or "video scoreboards". But people still keep calling them jumbotrons, even if not by SONY.

Thanks,
Mark Rejhon

www.BlurBusters.com

BlurBusters Blog -- Eliminating Motion Blur by 90%+ on LCD for games and computers

Rooting for upcoming low-persistence rolling-scan OLEDs too!

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post #29 of 42 Old 06-09-2013, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Internal processing maybe, but few panels are even 10-bit native today, and even those which are, with all the processing required to bring flat panels into line, it could be argued that few have gradation close to sending a CRT an 8-bit signal.
I did say "video processing" in my post. That LPD can do 14-bit RGB video processing doesn't tell us what the display can show and since that isn't mentioned on their website my guess is that the display can only show 8-bit RGB. As for CRT I think people have the tendency of overestimating it. I doubt that a 8-bit CRT display could equal the number of gradations of a 10-bit IPS LCD panel.
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post #30 of 42 Old 06-11-2013, 06:27 AM
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I did say "video processing" in my post. That LPD can do 14-bit RGB video processing doesn't tell us what the display can show and since that isn't mentioned on their website my guess is that the display can only show 8-bit RGB. As for CRT I think people have the tendency of overestimating it. I doubt that a 8-bit CRT display could equal the number of gradations of a 10-bit IPS LCD panel.
It's not about the number. 8-bit gradation is almost perfectly smooth on a CRT. A flat panel which can only display 8-bit gradation shows a lot of banding, and 10-bit reduces it quite a lot - but it's still not as smooth as when you send a CRT an 8-bit signal in most cases.

The issue is that while the LCD panel may support 10-bit inputs, the LCD panel itself requires a lot of correction to display the image accurately.
The native gamma response of an LCD panel does not fit the power-law gamma that video is encoded with, which is a CRT's natural response.
A lot of LCDs exceed the BT.709 gamut, and you have to sacrifice gradation to correct this and bring it into spec.
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